Do LDS misrepresent what other people believe about eternal togetherness?

[Thinking]

"Until death do you part." That phrase that is part of so many marriage ceremonies may not mean what many LDS claim it means (shameless PB paraphrase). I've been to enough non-LDS funerals to know that many people believe they will be reunited with their loved ones in heaven in the next life. Even yesterday on Facebook one of my friends (non-LDS) announced the passing of his pet cat and talked about how he looked forward to reuniting with his beloved pet in heaven.

Back to "Until death do you part."

Here is just one of the many examples of a Church leader explaining that it means the marriage ends with death.

Quote

Then how tragic are the implications of those words so often spoken on the day of marriage—“Till death do ye part.” As certainly as there has been a joining together in marriage with such a ceremony, there also has been decreed a separation and cancellation of family relationships in death.

Gordon B. Hinckley, April 1972 General Conference, Saturday Afternoon

I was once at a non-LDS wedding and the pastor explained that once married the couple was to spend time together and not look for reasons to be apart. Of course there will be things that the couple may not do together. The husband may participate in recreational basketball or the wife may like to participate in local theater. The pastor warned about finding too many things that would keep the husband and wife from spending time together. Only death would separate them...temporarily. I realized at that wedding ceremony that the people who used that phrase as part of the marriage ceremony were not using it to end or cancel the marriage. It was an admonition to be together until one of them dies. In heaven, when both have passed from this mortal life, there will be a glorious reunion, and there may even be some pets.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Thinking

[JustAnAustralian]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Back to "Until death do you part."

....

In heaven, when both have passed from this mortal life, there will be a glorious reunion, and there may even be some pets.

I guess it depends on what their beliefs about societal relations in the afterlife will be like.

1. that people will recognise each other and will be able to "hang out" with eachother?
2. their familial relations will be recognised (even if "marriage" isn't)?
3. that their marriage will still be existent in heaven?
4. something else?

Edited December 31, 2020 by JustAnAustralian

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

"Until death do you part." That phrase that is part of so many marriage ceremonies may not mean what many LDS claim it means (shameless PB paraphrase). I've been to enough non-LDS funerals to know that many people believe they will be reunited with their loved ones in heaven in the next life. Even yesterday on Facebook one of my friends (non-LDS) announced the passing of his pet cat and talked about how he looked forward to reuniting with his beloved pet in heaven.

Back to "Until death do you part."

Here is just one of the many examples of a Church leader explaining that it means the marriage ends with death.

I was once at a non-LDS wedding and the pastor explained that once married the couple was to spend time together and not look for reasons to be apart. Of course there will be things that the couple may not do together. The husband may participate in recreational basketball or the wife may like to participate in local theater. The pastor warned about finding too many things that would keep the husband and wife from spending time together. Only death would separate them...temporarily. I realized at that wedding ceremony that the people who used that phrase as part of the marriage ceremony were not using it to end or cancel the marriage. It was an admonition to be together until one of them dies. In heaven, when both have passed from this mortal life, there will be a glorious reunion, and there may even be some pets.

It’s no secret that the reason why the Catholic and Protestant churches do not believe there will be marriage and eternal families in heaven is because of a misinterpretation of the following oft-cited verses of scripture found in Matthew 22. 

23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22)

Whatever individual Catholics and Protestants might privately believe about how human beings are going to relate to each other in eternity, the fact is that the Churches they belong to do not teach that there will be married couples, families, and childbearing in heaven. In fact, Catholic and Protestant defenders will consistently quote the above verses from Matthew to “prove” the Latter-Day Saints are wrong about their belief in the continuation of marriage and family life in heaven. 

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Thinking said:

"Until death do you part." That phrase that is part of so many marriage ceremonies may not mean what many LDS claim it means (shameless PB paraphrase). I've been to enough non-LDS funerals to know that many people believe they will be reunited with their loved ones in heaven in the next life. Even yesterday on Facebook one of my friends (non-LDS) announced the passing of his pet cat and talked about how he looked forward to reuniting with his beloved pet in heaven.

Back to "Until death do you part."

Here is just one of the many examples of a Church leader explaining that it means the marriage ends with death.

I was once at a non-LDS wedding and the pastor explained that once married the couple was to spend time together and not look for reasons to be apart. Of course there will be things that the couple may not do together. The husband may participate in recreational basketball or the wife may like to participate in local theater. The pastor warned about finding too many things that would keep the husband and wife from spending time together. Only death would separate them...temporarily. I realized at that wedding ceremony that the people who used that phrase as part of the marriage ceremony were not using it to end or cancel the marriage. It was an admonition to be together until one of them dies. In heaven, when both have passed from this mortal life, there will be a glorious reunion, and there may even be some pets.

Maybe the pastor is misrepresenting the tenets of his denomination

I do think most people of faith believe they will find themselves together once again in the afterlife. This has more to do with their conception of heaven and souls being immortal than of recognizing an eternal, binding ordinance or "piece of paper."

I take Elder Hinckley's and similar statements to have more to do with the conditions of the sealing power and exaltation than with being able to associate in some other, less glorious way in the afterlife, which is also possible as alluded to in D&C 76. But of course we only focus on and proclaim the ideal.

Edited December 31, 2020 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

You know that they don't believe they'll be married in heaven but that they'll still be in each other's company.

But yes, I do think Church members will occasionally misrepresent that as an eternal family selling point.

[Calm]

Quote

Do LDS misrepresent what other people believe about eternal togetherness?

More than likely.  Most people I have found don’t understand others’ religious beliefs very well, a superficial knowledge at best.  Saints are unfortunately no different in this case that I have seen.  It is not intentional IMO.  It is just that religion is usually a rather nuanced set of beliefs and members interpret the basic faith core in their own way and add the twist of their own experiences.  It can take a lot of work to have a good grasp.  I think the best solution is to find good believing sources of info and point people to that and leave out the comparisons between faiths unless you were a past believer and have experienced both...though having see how many exmormons talk about the faith, previous membership is no guarantee of even a basic understanding IMO.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Calm

[Bob Crockett]

5 hours ago, Thinking said:

"Until death do you part." That phrase that is part of so many marriage ceremonies may not mean what many LDS claim it means (shameless PB paraphrase). I've been to enough non-LDS funerals to know that many people believe they will be reunited with their loved ones in heaven in the next life. Even yesterday on Facebook one of my friends (non-LDS) announced the passing of his pet cat and talked about how he looked forward to reuniting with his beloved pet in heaven.

Back to "Until death do you part."

Here is just one of the many examples of a Church leader explaining that it means the marriage ends with death.

I was once at a non-LDS wedding and the pastor explained that once married the couple was to spend time together and not look for reasons to be apart. Of course there will be things that the couple may not do together. The husband may participate in recreational basketball or the wife may like to participate in local theater. The pastor warned about finding too many things that would keep the husband and wife from spending time together. Only death would separate them...temporarily. I realized at that wedding ceremony that the people who used that phrase as part of the marriage ceremony were not using it to end or cancel the marriage. It was an admonition to be together until one of them dies. In heaven, when both have passed from this mortal life, there will be a glorious reunion, and there may even be some pets.

I think you are correct and I don't think it matters all that much.  

[rongo]

I don't think it's so much that we misrepresent others' beliefs about family relations in the hereafter as it is that people no longer know or care what their own churches (if they belong to a church) teach on that. Dogma and creeds don't impact people's personal beliefs much. It is very common to teach someone about eternal families through the priesthood, and they say, "Well, I believe I will always be with my family, no matter what." For many, bringing up that their church still teaches in the marriage ceremony "until death do you part," and also that interpretation of "they neither marry, nor are given in marriage in the resurrection" as denoting that family relations in the hereafter won't be similar to earth life. They just shrug and say, "Well, I don't believe that."

The bigger determinant is their belief in the importance of divine authority, and people who find that important are more likely to join the Church and continue to progress. I think our messaging should be more explicit and direct about this, but institutionally (in the missionary program), this is frowned on. The Facebook videos that are a big part of what missionaries do now are regularly shot down by the area presidency bureaucracy as being too overtly religious or too "in your face" (in my son's case, Frankfurt is over Norway). His mission president has agreed with him that Frankfurt is encouraging a "bait and switch" in wanting our messaging to just be bland and generic, not rocking the boat or being too religious, but we have to do what Frankfurt says. 

People whom authority and its importance on the hereafter resonates with are good prospects for the message of the Restoration. 

[Calm]

From Focus on the Family

Quote

But to come to your question, your second friend has a point: Jesus did say that life in the world to come won’t include marriage as we know it here on earth. When questioned by the Sadducees about this, He said, “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30, ESV).

However, Jesus didn’t say that all earthly relationships will be nullified in heaven. Those of us who accept God’s merciful offer of unmerited deliverance and salvation, will definitely be together with our loved ones in the next life. We just don’t know exactly what form that togetherness will take.

Human relationships will be different in heaven. But they can’t be less than what they’ve been on earth. Instead, they’ll be something more, something better, something far more fulfilling and satisfying than we can imagine.

That’s part of the glory of the resurrected life. And the apostle John hints at this glory when he says, “Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2, ESV).

So if the belief is it won’t be marriage, but something even better than marriage...not seeing that as a negative for that faith.

After all I don’t believe our relationships defined by Gospel doctrine will be identical to mortality as it makes little sense for my parents to continue as parents as we see them in this life when even in mortality our relationship was constantly changing over time and by the end of life the child is often the one in authority over the parent, the nurturer, the caregiver...why wouldn’t that relationship be dominant rather than the one at birth or why not the relationship of equal adults which is the longest lasting for most (40 years long compared to 20 years at beginning and 5-20 depending on health, especially mental health at the end).  One of the worst mistakes my dad and I tried in my 40s was him assuming a ‘fatherly role’ again where he meant to help me fix my house up, but did it in a way that I was accountable to him but not the reverse, similar to a child parent relationship where the parent expected obedience to their rules from the child in exchange for an allowance, but the child had no real input into any rules for the parent nor would there be any consequences on the parent for lack of follow through where they could be for the child...a child doesn’t get to ground a parent.  My dad thought this would help,  but he couldn’t get out of the habit of treating me like a child and not an equal adult and it was damaging our relationship.  So I did the adult thing and said appreciate the thought, but not interested in the money help....something that would have been impossible for me to do even at 16.

So I just don’t see eternal family as the whole parent-child relationship stuck in stone for eternity...not when we are eternal beings and the only difference is living a mortal life a few years earlier and leaving it a few years earlier.  No, what family will be is something not less, but much, much more, better than our mortal relationships.

I think eternal marriage and family will use the basics of the mortal relationship and then build on that, progressing the relationships to something far beyond what we can imagine, including I am guessing putting all of God’s family in deep, binding, intimate (in terms of knowledge of each other and sharing experiences on a much closer, personal level) companionship with each other as we become one with Christ.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Calm

[MrShorty]

tl:dr: Yes, I think a blanket statement that no one else in Christendom believes in any form of eternal relationship misrepresents what many Christians believe about relationships in heaven.

I first encountered this listening to Focus on the Family years ago when Dr. Dobson (to give an idea of how long ago it was) talked about his parents end of life experiences and his belief that they were together in heaven. Another Christian blogger that I sometimes follow talks frequently about her son who died at 1 month old and how she looks forward to being with him in heaven. In a third incident, as I was driving through Twin Falls (ID), I heard a brief "ad spot" on a Christian radio station telling listeners that a special marriage ceremony is not needed in order to be together with loved ones in heaven.

While I am sure that you can find individual denominations and pastors that teach that our relationships will not endure into eternity, it seems to be far from a universal belief.

[rongo]

That said, this is still an excellent point of discussion that you can have wonderful, deep discussions with thoughtful people with. Is authority important, even vital? What will the hereafter be like? How can we know? Is this true, and what do I need to do about it? What if I don't do anything about it? How can I know?

It's just that it is quite rare to "get to third base" in this discussion with most people. They believe they will be with their family, but haven't thought too much about it, and don't really want to think too much about it. My best discussions as a missionary and a "civilian" have been with people who are willing to think and act on things like this. 

[Tacenda]

I think more non LDS married people think they're going to be together than LDS people do! Our religion has put so much emphasis on the subject that it's ingrained that if a family member strays or doesn't get married in the temple they won't be with their eternal family. They'll be in another heaven. That is the most damaging. 

[Calm]

A Catholic POV (though not the official one)

Quote

Hence, we ought not to conclude that a long marriage in this world will have no meaning at all in the age to come. In heaven our body and our soul will be perfected. So, too, our fundamental relationships, both spousal and familial. They will not be discarded or simply forgotten. Surely those who are spouses here will experience a far more perfect union in Heaven. They will enjoy mutual understanding, love, appreciation, and spiritual intimacy far greater than they could even imagine. They will have this because they have it first and foremost with God; and with, in, and through God they will enjoy this perfected union with each other. The same would be true of our other familial relationships and bonds of friendship, to each according to what is proper and perfect. The married will enjoy this supremely, because marital bonds on earth receive special divine graces.

The early Church writer Tertullian affirms this view:

All the more shall we be bound to our departed spouses because we are destined to a better estate … to a spiritual partnership …. Consequently, we who are together with God shall remain together…. In eternal life God shall no more separate those he has joined together than in this life where he forbids them to be separated (Tertullian, On Monogamy, 10).

To be sure, some aspects of marriage do end with the death of a spouse. The marital vows that bind the couple to an exclusive relationship, forsaking all others, are only operative until death do them part. Thus, the death of a spouse permits the surviving spouse to marry again. In some cases, especially before the modern age, such marriages for widows or widowers were necessary for financial and familial reasons.

That a marriage ends by the death of a spouse speaks more to worldly realities than to heavenly ones. It still does not follow that one’s earthly marriage will have no meaning in Heaven. Even if a person remarries after the death of his/her spouse, surely both relationships will be perfected in Heaven, not discarded. As the relationships are perfect, there will be no jealousy or resentment between the first spouse and the second.

In His response to the Sadducees, Jesus surely does mean that there will be no newmarriages in Heaven. There will be no wedding bells, no marriage ceremonies, for Heaven is already one grand marriage feast of Christ with His Bride, the Church....

Married couples should look forward to a relationship that is perfected in Heaven, not set aside. While the juridical aspects of marriage may end at death, the union of hearts and lives will not. In Christ there surely remains a spiritual connection and covenantal union that stretches from Heaven to earth through prayer, and in Heaven the Lord will surely perfect what He joined on earth, giving spouses unimaginable joy and unity.

https://cathstan.org/posts/will-marriages-be-acknowledged-in-heaven

Another:

Quote

Does that mean our earthly spouse means nothing to us in heaven? Not at all! If God created such a holy bond and relationship on earth, why would he just throw it away? Fr. Raneiro Cantalamessa says “Marriage does not come to a complete end at death but is transfigured, spiritualized, freed from the limits that mark life on earth, as also the ties between parents and children or between friends will not be forgotten. In a preface for the dead the liturgy proclaims: “Life is transformed, not taken away.” Even marriage, which is part of life, will be transfigured, not nullified.”

https://www.indiancatholicmatters.org/does-marriage-end-with-death-of-a-spouse/

Edited December 31, 2020 by Calm

[rongo]

To what extent are these unofficial (non-creedal) beliefs among sectarian Christianity a response to decades of the Mormon message that sealings are essential to perpetuate family relations beyond the grave? Are they directly affected by Mormon doctrine, or not at all? 

[Calm]

Quote

Others look to the Old Testament story of Adam and Eve. In Genesis 2:18, God says, "It is not good for the man to be alone.” After making this statement, the story says, God created woman as the perfect companion for man and instigated the marriage bond. "[A] man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24).

Many believers view this story as proclaiming the importance of marriage. The Scripture teaches that although parent and child will separate, husband and wife will not. The joining of a couple through marriage becomes the second most important relationship in a person's life — the first being an person's relationship with God.

With such importance attached to the marriage bond, various believers argue it is inconceivable that God would break the union in heaven.

Other Christians, while agreeing that God provides companionship for the good of humanity and accepting at face value Jesus' statement that no marriage exists in heaven, see the matter a little differently. They teach that for each person God selects the perfect companion from all souls throughout time. That soul mate may be a person's earthly spouse or someone the believer would have chosen in life if he or she had had the opportunity to know the individual. This relationship is not marriage, they say, because marriage contemplates procreation, which is unnecessary in a heavenly existence.

Other POVs, LDS thought is mentioned...

https://oklahoman.com/article/3162596/ideas-on-marriage-in-heaven-vary-with-faiths

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, rongo said:

To what extent are these unofficial (non-creedal) beliefs among sectarian Christianity a response to decades of the Mormon message that sealings are essential to perpetuate family relations beyond the grave? Are they directly affected by Mormon doctrine, or not at all? 

I doubt Tertullian was much affected by our modern doctrine.

——

Seems to me it is natural for loving spouses to wonder what comes next, they don’t need the idea of sealings to desire to understand and hope for more.  This is likely a question that has been asked since the time of the New Testament and many faiths have doctrine on that we are unaware of because it is not as easily codified as “until death do we part”.
 

Maybe this is why there have been from the start of the Restoration many who do not see a need to seek for further light on the subject, because their faith provides them with an answer that resonates sufficiently with their soul.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Calm

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I doubt Tertullian was much affected by our modern doctrine.

Sure. But I don't think his view on this was much thought of and discussed until relatively recent times. 

What about the others (Focus on the Family, etc.)? This seems to be a real shift in relatively recent times, and the Mormon missionary program used to hammer away on this point a lot over the years. It seems to be responses to that point --- always couched in "we don't know the specifics, but of course we'll be together," and disregarding past dogmas and creeds. 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, rongo said:

This seems to be a real shift in relatively recent times...

Or maybe it just wasn’t talked about because it was well known to believers.

How much did you research other faiths’ beliefs in this in the past?

Quote

But I don't think his view on this was much thought of and discussed until relatively recent times. 

Why don’t you think that?

[Calm]

A very, very popular faith healer who died in 1965 appears to have believed in continued relationship, so not exactly recent...

Quote

You're looking to the time when you've crossed the river yonder, when you'll spring back, again to young men and women, to live together forever. William Branham...

And was talking about men losing their affections for their wife and don't love them as they did when they were sweethearts, shame on you. You ought to do it; she's always your sweetheart. Absolutely, that's the part she should be. And you should treat her like that. Oh, never let that little honeymoon cease, 'cause it isn't going to in heaven. It's going to be just perfectly one there.
Time Tested Memorials - William Branham

https://bibletabernacle.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Together-Forever.pdf

[bluebell]

I'm sure we do misrepresent beliefs sometimes.  We certainly do it in regards to the Trinity.  But I've asked quite a few non-members about their beliefs concerning marriage and family relationships after death and without exception they have all told me that they will not be married to their spouse and will not be a parent or grandparent to their children and grandchildren after death.  They will know them and love them, but it will be a brotherly or sisterly relationship, the kind that you have with your fellow church members in a congregation.

That certainly doesn't mean that there aren't religions or denominations out there that do believe marriage and familial bonds will still exist after death, I just haven't heard it.

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, Thinking said:

I was once at a non-LDS wedding and the pastor explained that once married the couple was to spend time together and not look for reasons to be apart. Of course there will be things that the couple may not do together. The husband may participate in recreational basketball or the wife may like to participate in local theater. The pastor warned about finding too many things that would keep the husband and wife from spending time together. Only death would separate them...temporarily. I realized at that wedding ceremony that the people who used that phrase as part of the marriage ceremony were not using it to end or cancel the marriage. It was an admonition to be together until one of them dies. In heaven, when both have passed from this mortal life, there will be a glorious reunion, and there may even be some pets.

It probably would not have been appropriate at the time but it would have been so interesting if you had had the chance to ask that pastor if he was teaching that the couple would still be married in heaven.  

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm sure we do misrepresent beliefs sometimes.  We certainly do it in regards to the Trinity.  But I've asked quite a few non-members about their beliefs concerning marriage and family relationships after death and without exception they have all told me that they will not be married to their spouse and will not be a parent or grandparent to their children and grandchildren after death.  They will know them and love them, but it will be a brotherly or sisterly relationship, the kind that you have with your fellow church members in a congregation.

That certainly doesn't mean that there aren't religions or denominations out there that do believe marriage and familial bonds will still exist after death, I just haven't heard it.

I don't think there are any churches that formally/officially teach/believe it. I think the outlier beliefs we are discussing here are individual, case-by-case people's beliefs.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't think there are any churches that formally/officially teach/believe it. I think the outlier beliefs we are discussing here are individual, case-by-case people's beliefs.

That's probably true, which leads to an interesting observation of people who are actively believing things their denominations and religions officially teach will not happen.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I think more non LDS married people think they're going to be together than LDS people do! Our religion has put so much emphasis on the subject that it's ingrained that if a family member strays or doesn't get married in the temple they won't be with their eternal family. They'll be in another heaven. That is the most damaging. 

I’m wondering if this means you believe every earthly marriage and family should be made eternal whether the family members want it or not? Or do you think it would be better if there were no such thing as eternal families?

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't think there are any churches that formally/officially teach/believe it. I think the outlier beliefs we are discussing here are individual, case-by-case people's beliefs.

Apparently Swedenborgian churches do.  Some have claimed Joseph Smith got some of his ideas from Swedenborg, btw.

Quote

Christian denominations that believe that human marriages are, or can be, eternal:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

The General Church of the New Jerusalem (Swedenborgian)

The General Conference of the New Church (Swedenborgian - Great Britain)

The Lord's New Church Which Is Nova Hierosolyma (Swedenborgian)

The New Church in Australia (Swedenborgian)

The New Church of Southern Africa (Swedenborgian)

The Swedenborgian Church of North America

 

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/63044/which-denominations-believe-in-eternal-marriage

Someone else on that thread claims the Eastern Orthodox do, will check.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Calm