Covid II: Medical Info and Implications

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, rongo said:

Um, every single one says the word flu. They came up in a search comparing Covid and flu in children.  Do you not even look at what we post for your CFRs?

Besides, that isn't how studies work, right? Statistical sampling and analysis instead of counting and reporting kids in hospital beds and all that.  

 

You didn’t quote the relevant parts then.  Nothing you said had the word “flu” in it.  I can’t find anything which compares Delta to flu.  Please help me out!

I don’t know what you mean with your second comment.  I would be happy to see any study that compares the two.  I don’t need hard data counting.

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, Danzo said:

So you can't provide the CFR.

 

600,000 children with long covid should be a conservative number since it is likely that more children have had covid than have been tested.

If children were experiencing symptoms in these quantities people would notice. Pediatricians would notice. Primary care physicians would notice.

Doctors collect this type of information. They report this kind of information.  

Again, CFR that any credible health organisation thinks 15% of children who get long covid.

 

I can’t provide a CFR for something I never claimed and doesn’t exist.   I have already posted links with multiple (up to 50) studies about long Covid in children.  From all the studies I have been looking at, 15% is pretty conservative.  

Edited August 5, 2021 by pogi

[rongo]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

You didn’t quote the relevant parts then.  Nothing you said had the word “flu” in it.  I can’t find anything which compares Delta to flu.  Please help me out!

I don’t know what you mean with your second comment.  I would be happy to see any study that compares the two.  I don’t need hard data counting.

This is what is exasperating. Literally every quote in that post, or the article titles themselves "had the word flu in it." It's like you issue CFRs, but refuse to read what is given.

This is one reason why many reasonable people are losing trust in "medical professionals" on this issue. It has the feel of talking with Baghdad Bob while the buildings behind him get bombed. The continued DEFCON 1 hysteria they want people, governments, schools, and churches to subscribe to just doesn't rise to that level according to increasingly many people's risk/benefit analysis. This is another reason why I think specifically the Church is seeing what it is seeing (masks abandoned in the chapel and in the temple, other than single digit virtue signalers), and why I really don't think the Brethren are going to do anything about it. 

People are just going to have to go on with life, some sooner than others. It's not going to be any different with the Gamma variant or anything else. It's endemic, just like influenza and the other coronavirus maladies. 

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

I can’t provide a CFR for something I never claimed and doesn’t exist.   I have already posted links with multiple (up to 50) studies about long Covid in children.  From all the studies I have been looking at, 15% is pretty conservative.  

Yet you haven't posted any studies since I asked for the CFR. Could you at least post a link to your 15% study.

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

This is what is exasperating. Literally every quote in that post, or the article titles themselves "had the word flu in it." It's like you issue CFRs, but refuse to read what is given.

This is one reason why many reasonable people are losing trust in "medical professionals" on this issue. It has the feel of talking with Baghdad Bob while the buildings behind him get bombed. The continued DEFCON 1 hysteria they want people, governments, schools, and churches to subscribe to just doesn't rise to that level according to increasingly many people's risk/benefit analysis. This is another reason why I think specifically the Church is seeing what it is seeing (masks abandoned in the chapel and in the temple, other than single digit virtue signalers), and why I really don't think the Brethren are going to do anything about it. 

People are just going to have to go on with life, some sooner than others. It's not going to be any different with the Gamma variant or anything else. It's endemic, just like influenza and the other coronavirus maladies. 

Pardon me, the first ones you posted did not have the word flu in them.  The second ones did, but were comparing flu to Covid in general (likely published before delta was dominant) not to Delta.  
 

To answer the claim that Delta is no more severe than flu, I need something about that please, and thank you.  Good luck!

Seems like a simple and clear request, but you keep posting irrelevant info and making terrible excuses!  
 

“This is why”...many people in the medical field are losing faith in humanity.

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Yet you haven't posted any studies since I asked for the CFR. Could you at least post a link to your 15% study.

I already have posted several links in this thread.  One containing around 50 studies, if I remember correctly.  If you missed it, that is on you.  You can find them just as easily as I can.  There is no rule that I need to repost links because readers are not reading closely or are too lazy to go back and look for themselves. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by pogi

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

While it may help with other diseases and the lesser variants of Covid, most cloth masks for Delta are unlikely to have significant effect IMO.  Not saying we want to throw them all out if the kids are willing to wear them as if they do help in other ways (and depending on the mask and the kid that is a big if IMO), that keeps the kids healthier and therefore less vulnerable.  
 

In Utah, how proactive were schools in ensuring kids had decent masks?  Not bandanas or neck gaiters for example…can’t imagine those would last long enough to get out the door on a younger kid.  The first masks my grandkids wore were single layer with loose ear loops that had to be constantly pulled up.  I cringed, but risk was still very low then and I figured baby steps.  Haven’t seen what else they wore.

I gotta admit my mind is leaning towards those that really can't cope shouldn't be made to wear them, since the vaccinations etc have been happening. I think the adults should take accountability on how they handle covid and maybe go case by case with children. Not sure really, on the fence. I did see students wear them well if they were on the younger side, except for when they sneezed and blew snot in them and luckily I saw some and had them get a new mask at the office. The older they got like 6th grade they wouldn't pull them over their noses and I became a nazi mask warn-er. 

 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Yet you haven't posted any studies since I asked for the CFR. Could you at least post a link to your 15% study.

One of the reasons I started a Covid medical thread was so it would be easy to use the search function…though we are still limited to a year back.

If you do a search on Pogi as author, keywords “long Covid” and then just look at posts in this thread, you should be able to see them.  If not, let me know, and I will repost them.  I have much more time available to me and might as well be useful.   

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I did see students wear them well if they were on the younger side, except for when they sneezed and blew snot in them and luckily I saw some and had them get a new mask at the office. 

 

What is even worse is when people take off their mask to sneeze or cough in their hand.  I see it more than I’d like.

Leave the mask on and cough into your elbow pit, thank you very much!

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

One of the reasons I started a Covid medical thread was so it would be easy to use the search function…though we are still limited to a year back.

If you do a search on Pogi as author, keywords “long Covid” and then just look at posts in this thread, you should be able to see them.  If not, let me know, and I will repost them.  I have much more time available to me and might as well be useful.   

You are way more kind than me.

It was literally like a couple pages ago.  It would be easier to just scroll through the last few pages.  I mentioned that one link had tons of studies, it was the link to the organization/support group for families of children with long Covid.  They had a page if tons of studies.  I think I posted at least a couple other studies and articles on studies as well.

Edited August 5, 2021 by pogi

[bsjkki]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

What is even worse is when people take off their mask to sneeze or cough in their hand.  I see it more than I’d like.

Leave the mask on and cough into your elbow pit, thank you very much!

Guilty. I’ve caught myself doing that. 😬

Just a quick instinctive pull down... who wants to sneeze in their mask? I have usually caught myself but not every time.

Edited August 5, 2021 by bsjkki

[rodheadlee]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

 

“This is why”...many people in the medical field are losing faith in humanity.

It's not just people in the medical field. People are basically a**holes now. I drive 200 miles a day round trip for work, the self centered rudeness of people is at an all time high. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

You are right that it is still early in having any really solid data.   However, it is reckless to suggest that it is less severe and that parents shouldn't worry, especially considering the evidence that does suggest it could be more severe. 

This from our very own desseret news:

 

Good to know, I need to share this information, since so many parents are anti masks for their children in the schools. I didn't know about it being more harmful for children. Thanks Pogi, have a good time where ever you are peace-ing out to!! And thanks for all your efforts on the battlefield!! 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

You are way more kind than me.

It was literally like a couple pages ago.  It would be easier to just scroll through the last few pages.  I mentioned that one link had tons of studies, it was the link to the organization/support group for families of children with long Covid.  They had a page if tons of studies.  I think I posted at least a couple other studies and articles on studies as well.

Or just go to your profile and check your most recent posts…forgot that could be done.

I sometimes can’t find a particular phrase by scrolling that should be easy to find, so I get not wanting to go look, but links are relatively easy to spot.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Calm

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

It's not just people in the medical field. People are basically a**holes now. I drive 200 miles a day round trip for work, the self centered rudeness of people is at an all time high. 

So true.  High stress times.  Another indirect effect of Covid. I definitely feel it myself.  Less patience and more irritable.   With that I will bow out for a few days and try to find some peace and solace in meditation/prayer and re-center.  

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Good to know, I need to share this information, since so many parents are anti masks for their children in the schools. I didn't know about it being more harmful for children. Thanks Pogi, have a good time where ever you are peace-ing out to!! And thanks for all your efforts on the battlefield!! 

Potentially more harmful based on some data. We should steer clear of absolutes for now.

Thanks for all you do too!

Edited August 5, 2021 by pogi

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

What is even worse is when people take off their mask to sneeze or cough in their hand.  I see it more than I’d like.

Leave the mask on and cough into your elbow pit, thank you very much!

I pull up my shirt and cough into that…elbow just never clicked with me.  If I forget and do my hand, it grosses me out and I head for the sink.  I don’t cough or sneeze much and it is spit, not mucus that comes out.  I have a hard time blowing my nose too, major production, so it is into the restroom for that on the rare occasion it happens out of bed.

My big problem these days is my nose runs after eating…pretty much anything, so grabbing on the go and then putting the mask on, I have to take it off to wipe it for 15 minutes or so.  Never used to have tissues in the house, occasional TP was fine.  Subscribe and Save Amazon now delivers a dozen boxes every couple of months.  My nose deserves the comfort.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Potentially more harmful based on some data. We should steer clear of absolutes for now.

Thanks for all you do too!

Got it, thank you!! ❤️

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

It's not just people in the medical field. People are basically a**holes now. I drive 200 miles a day round trip for work, the self centered rudeness of people is at an all time high. 

Another reason to avoid driving.  I pity those who can’t. 
 

I still found it fun in the wee hours when the freeway is pretty empty and the night is warm and I can roll down the windows and crank up the music, but when are the roads empty these days after 5 AM?

Edited August 5, 2021 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Another reason to avoid driving.  I pity those who can’t. 
 

I still found it fun in the wee hours when the freeway is pretty empty and the night is warm and I can roll down the windows and crank up the music, but when are the roads empty these days after 5 AM?

3am to 4am is the only empty time, 2am to 3am the drunks are on the road.

Edited August 5, 2021 by rodheadlee

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

Again, CFR that any credible health organisation thinks 15% of children who get long covid.

I'm not Pogi, nor am I up on this issue, but a simple search of academic journals on the National Center for Biotechnology Information's website turns up this:

Helen Thomson, 'Children with Long Covid', New Scientist, 27 Feb. 2021, pp. 10-11. An excerpt:

Quote

Evidence from the first study of long covid in children suggests that more than half of children aged between 6 and 16 years old who contract the virus have at least one symptom lasting more than 120 days, with 42.6 per cent impaired by these symptoms during daily activities. These interim results are based on periodic assessments of 129 children in Italy who were diagnosed with covid-19 between March and November 2020 at the Gemelli University Hospital in Rome (medRxiv, doi.org/fv9t).

The UK Office for National Statistics's latest report estimates that 12.9 per cent of UK children aged 2 to 11, and 14.5 per cent of children aged 12 to 16, still have symptoms five weeks after their first infection.

I also found this on the British Medical Journal's site:

Daniel Munblit et al., 'Legacy of COVID-19 Infection in Children: Long-COVID Will Have a Lifelong Health/Economic Impact', Archives of Disease in Childhood, 27 May 2021. An excerpt:

Quote

The office for National Statistics in the UK reported that the highest prevalence of long-COVID after 12 weeks was in those aged 25–34 years (18.2%) and lowest in the 2–11 years age band (7.4%). This is in accord with the most recent study from Australia, which followed 151 children (median age 3 years) for 3–6 months who predominantly had mild or asymptomatic infection followed in only 8% with ongoing symptoms. However, evidence from other small long-term outcome studies in children suggests that more than a half having at least one persisting symptom 4 months after COVID-19. Our experience is that preschool children rarely have long-COVID symptoms but those in the 6–18 age groups are significantly more frequently affected.

One of us (FS) has personal experience of long-COVID both in herself and her children. Her feelings are encompassed in the following statement: ‘The issue of not being believed is a common one, and the fear of being considered over-anxious and/or Munchausen’s by proxy is very difficult. There has been a real resistance to exploring the situation around children, and the narrative that most children are fine and unaffected has been unchallenged. This leaves parents of children with ongoing symptoms in a very difficult position, in terms of being supported by healthcare practitioners and believed by schools etc. Feels like a vicious circle—without evidence nobody will research it but without research there is no data!’

NB: this second article is an opinion piece, but it does include data and links to where those data come from.

Also note that one of the co-authors is contactable. You (or someone else who reads this thread) might want to reach out to him on this topic?

Professor John O Warner, Paediatrics, Imperial College London, London SW7 2BX, UK; j.o.warner@imperial.ac.uk.

Unfortunately, neither of these pieces specifically mentions the Delta variant.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Rain]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

What is even worse is when people take off their mask to sneeze or cough in their hand.  I see it more than I’d like.

Leave the mask on and cough into your elbow pit, thank you very much!

I envy those of you who can do that! 😄 The closest I can get to my elbow pit is 6 inches! Can I borrow yours?

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

One of my friends just put this on Facebook.  She's an awesome middle aged woman, college educated, and not at all alt-right or extreme in any way.  She's not heavily into oils, or homeschooling, or any of those other things that sometimes lead a person to expect someone to be anti-max or anti-vaccine (not that being interested in any of those things is bad or automatically means someone is crazy).  On Facebook her posts are hardly ever political and very evenhanded and fair.

I'm posting it not to address what it says (I pretty sure she didn't personally write it), but to show that these are the kinds of people that are fighting against masks and vaccines.  They aren't all fringe, extremist types.  They are regular people and they are actively campaigning against those things.  

If they are the minority, it's not be very much.

Okay, a couple things in that post I feel should be corrected.

The government can, per Supreme Court ruling, mandate that a citizen receive a vaccine if the public health danger is judged to be grave enough. This goes back to a smallpox vaccination mandate many years ago. Not being vaccinated is not a fundamental human right.

No one of any real consequence is pushing for a vaccine mandate issued by the government to compel all citizens to be vaccinated. It probably would be legal but even people who think it would be a good thing (people like me) realize that trying to mandate this would end in healthcare workers being shot, rioting, and probably some anti-vaxxer terrorism. It is kind of a red herring.

The government also has the right to require its employees to be vaccinated. So do private and public organizations. A business requiring their employees to be vaccinated is not a violation of anything in the constitution.

This whole movement is a gigantic death cult that is hell-bent on dragging out this pandemic forever and pushing for actions that will maximize loss in lives and in the economy. The people who complain the most about the conditions of the pandemic seem to take every possible action to drag it out even longer. I am reminded of Germany in the First World War trying to shore up their relatively useless ally Austria-Hungary and calling it being "shackled to a corpse". I feel a new sympathy for that sentiment.

Edited August 5, 2021 by The Nehor

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is kind of a red herring.

Kind of?

This reminds of the memes reposted by one of my American friends, a sweet, retired English teacher: things such as 'Why are Muslims asking us to take down the flag because it offends them?' Or the 'progressive' political ads where I live insinuating that our centre-right/right coalition government is planning to yank universal heath cover even as it increases its funding year-on-year.

The people who design these kinds of things know precisely what they are doing: sowing division based on lies. And they perfectly understand how to 'flatter' (intentional use of BofM language) their targets.

I reread the Book of Helaman exactly four years ago, and I was struck by how closely our current historical moment mirrors the one described in that book. That was four years ago. I had no idea what was coming.

When I first read the Book of Mormon, I dismissed some of the more 'cartoonish' aspects of the narrative as obvious fabrications. Then, as I came to understand that the book is from God, I had to change my assessment, and I concluded that they were basically historical 'shorthand'.

But here we are, and those 'cartoonish' portrayals of human nature are pretty damn accurate!

Edited August 5, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

I envy those of you who can do that! 😄 The closest I can get to my elbow pit is 6 inches! Can I borrow yours?

I come as close as I can without injuring myself. But I find that if I turn my head too far to cough into my elbow, I risk straining neck muscles with the action of the sneeze. A better option for me, like Calm, is to pull my shirt collar over my nose and mouth and cough into my shirt.