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Covid II: Medical Info and Implications


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For those who are debating what to do over the holidays, Zoom is getting in the family spirit by removing the 40 minute limit on its free accounts. 
 

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Public health officials are pleading with Americans not to celebrate Thanksgiving the way they usually do but instead use this occasion to invent new traditions. One idea is to drop off food contactlessly to another household and then share the meal over video.

Video meeting platform Zoom announced it will lift the 40-minute limit for its free accounts on Thanksgiving, to make it easier for loved ones to gather at a distance.

Will get link in a bit. 

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49 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Interesting observation. 

Truckers perhaps?

The possibility is there:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7323644/

Truckers are one of the more conservative groups (all the links are highly political, so I will just assume this is common knowledge), which may lead them to be less confident in the usefulness of masks, etc.  Iwill see if I can find info on compliance, etc  

One union is complaining a company is not providing the truckers PPE or sanitizer or not disinfecting trucks as they should.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/cdllife.com/2020/covid-concerned-truckers-say-company-doesnt-disinfect-trucks-or-provide-ppe-threaten-to-strike/%3famp

What other routes follow the same lines?  Any sales reps or rallies, tourists?  College students?

added:  doesn’t have compliance rates though some comment it isn’t great, but does comment that many drivers will drive sick as they don’t have sick pay, there are also problems with getting tested if you aren’t a local, and there are apparently fewer truckers getting sick than was expected. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.detroitnews.com/amp/112022416

Edited by Calm
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Posted in another thread by accident, so it is a bit out of order...

If people are already social distancing and limiting their interaction to short times, then it would not surprise me if masks aren’t that much more effective at protecting the wearer if others are wearing masks. That is because it is primarily the aerosols that will infect already social distancing people and masks aren’t as effective with them as they are droplets, which are controlled with both a mask and a social distancing approach.   

But other studies have found differences in protection of wearers, so I think something more is needed in the research to determine if they do help protect the wearer significantly or not... maybe just test those who live on their own and have no visitors allowed in to remove home behaviour as a variable.  Behaviour in the home is likely going to overwhelm measures taken outside the home imo because of the time involved and the close interaction.  
 

You can interpret that as therefore not making it worth it to mask up outside the home if you only care about protecting yourself...though this will likely increase the numbers of others who feel the same way (‘if those people don’t care about protecting me, why should I worry about protecting them’) and therefore you will lose the protection that others wearing masks gives you as others abandon mask wearing. 
 

And remember that while many/most people appear to be getting infected in their home environment, one of their home mates must somehow bring it in from the outside to get that process started. Prevent that first infection and numbers will drop. 
 

Or you can look at mask wearing solely as a function of preventing infection when you are outside the home and not preventing infection over all and judge it on that basis.  Not sure if we have studies that eliminate the variable of home infection in their research, so at the moment it seems intelligent to assume there could be an effect and go from there. 
 

At the very least, if there aren’t studies showing there is no effect on someone not getting infected when others are wearing masks, seems to me we should assume there is as the cost of being wrong is much higher if we choose not to wear than if we choose to wear and are wrong. 

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

For those who are debating what to do over the holidays, Zoom is getting in the family spirit by removing the 40 minute limit on its free accounts. 
 

Will get link in a bit. 

We have a tradition in our family of putting 3 kernels of popcorn on everyone's plate.  Why popcorn?  I have no idea.  Before the meal we say one thing we are grateful for and then put a kernel beside our plate.  We go around the circle and the do the second and so on.  This year we will be doing that over zoom from 5 maybe 6 (if it works with my missionary son's schedule) homes.  

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7 hours ago, Calm said:

Remember, the primary purpose of masks has always been to decrease transmission from an infected mask wearer to someone not infected. This study does not demonstrate that. This study solely deals with protection of a mask wearer when there is no control over others who are infected...they may be exposed to Covid positive that are wearing masks or not wearing masks. 

It is meaningful because we are now being told masks do protect us.
 

I wear masks, but I’m very aware that we were out and out lied to initially, masks don’t work so don’t use them. That they wanted the limited masks for health care workers is irrelevant to the fact that they lied. Then we were told masks only protect others....before they said they do protect us. 
 

People have good reason to be skeptical. 

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16 minutes ago, juliann said:

It is meaningful because we are now being told masks do protect us.

I am not saying it is not meaningful, but to use these studies to dismiss or just even question the usefulness of masks which I see many doing (not so often here, but occasionally it seems to be happening here as well) is to ignore half of the equation.

Rather than thinking of wearing masks like seat belts, we could use car lights at certain times as I am thinking the analogy works better.  At times they don't seem to help us see much better and it might be even easier to see without them in a few unusual situations (I remember a few daytime snow storms they made it harder to see by reflecting light too much from flakes), but they warn others we are there and therefore decrease accidents.  However, if we are only testing how well they help the driver to see in the daytime, research might encourage us not to care or to resist laws that require usage.  When overall accidents are studied, daytime running lights appear to have a 5-10% decrease effect.

https://www.idrivesafely.com/defensive-driving/trending/headlightsin-day-daytime-headlight-laws-explained

Edited by Calm
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https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/18/world/asia/covid-cleaning.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

For those who have been paying attention, this was obvious for quite some time.

“In my opinion, a lot of time, energy and money is being wasted on surface disinfection and, more importantly, diverting attention and resources away from preventing airborne transmission,” said Dr. Kevin P. Fennelly, a respiratory infection specialist with the United States National Institutes of Health...

Such displays can be comforting to the public because they seem to show that local officials are taking the fight to Covid-19. But Shelly Miller, an expert on aerosols at the University of Colorado Boulder, said that the booth made no practical sense from an infection-control standpoint.

Viruses are emitted through activities that spray respiratory droplets — talking, breathing, yelling, coughing, singing and sneezing. And disinfecting sprays are often made from toxic chemicals that can significantly affect indoor air quality and human health, Dr. Miller said...

By October, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which had maintained since May that surfaces are “not the primary way the virus spreads,” was saying that transmission of infectious respiratory droplets was the “principal mode” through which it does.

But by then, paranoia about touching anything from handrails to grocery bags had taken off. And the instinct to scrub surfaces as a Covid precaution — “hygiene theater,” as The Atlantic magazine called it — was already deeply ingrained.

“My tennis partner and I have abandoned shaking hands at the end of a match — but, since I’ve touched the tennis balls that he has touched, what’s the point?” Geoff Dyer wrote in a March essay for The New Yorker magazine that captured the germaphobic zeitgeist...

Several Hong Kong-based scientists insist the deep cleaning can’t hurt, and supported the government’s strict social-distancing rules and its monthslong insistence on near-universal mask wearing...

“People are removing masks for lunch or when they get back to their cubicle because they assume their cubicle is their private space,” said Yeung King-lun, a professor of chemical and biological engineering at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology.

“But remember: The air you’re breathing in is basically communal.”

 

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This is so sad. https://nypost.com/2020/11/19/not-just-covid-nursing-home-neglect-deaths-surge-in-shadows/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPTwitter

"But when the lockdown started and the virus began to spread in the home, Best sensed the staff couldn’t handle what they had been dealt. The second time her mother, a retired switchboard operator, appeared on screen for a scheduled FaceTime call, she looked awful, her eyes closed as she moaned, flailed her arms above her head and just kept repeating “no.” Best insisted a doctor check her out.

A few hours later, the doctor called, seemingly frantic, saying she only had a moment to talk.

“The COVID is everywhere,” Best remembered her saying. “It’s in every unit. The doctors have it, the nurses have it and your mother may have it.”

In the end, 59 residents at Gurwin would be killed by the virus, but Best’s mother never contracted it. She died instead of dehydration, her daughter said, because the staff was so consumed with caring for COVID-19 patients that no one made sure she was drinking.

“My mom went from being unbelievably cared for to dead in three weeks,” said Best, who provided medical documents noting her mother’s dehydration. “They were in over their head more than anyone could imagine.”

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Here is a little more information about the Danish study:

https://healthy-skeptic.com/2020/11/18/flash-on-the-danish-mask-study/

I live in Washington State where things are better than some other states, but the virus is still spreading quite rapidly.  Our Governor instituted some additional restrictions recently which are going to be devastating to some businesses without any help for them.  He always says that he follows the science but I'm not sure that he does.  Some things I question:

He has shut down all indoor restaurant service, yet there have not been any outbreaks in any restaurants with indoor service in the State of Washington.

He has shut down all indoor gyms and fitness centers yet there has not been a single case of Covid from any gyms in the State of Washington.  These Gym owners are extremely careful because their livelihood is at stake, and their efforts has been remarkable, yet the Governor doesn't think they can be trusted.

I have a friend who runs the local YMCA, he says there has not been a single case of Covid coming from a YMCA in the entire United States yet our governor has shut them down.  This is not following the science.

By the Governor's own numbers, 97% of Washingtonians are very compliant with the mask and social distancing mandates (including me, by the way).  If this is true, and if mandates work, then why are cases spreading so rapidly.

I am tired of the politicizing of this.  I agree that we need to follow the science, the problem is we are being fed phony science by some of our leaders and some of our media.

Edited by T-Shirt
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My daughter's Sister-in-law was just in a meeting with the Governor of Utah regarding vaccine distribution.  Here are her notes:

Phizer getting emergency use likely today or within a week.

Phizer - US will only get 20-30 million doses.

Utah will get 1% of all of US dosages.

Plan on vaccines changes daily. The legislature has a different idea of who should get vaccinated first and is fighting the current plan released.

Phase 1 wave 1 - hospitals - likely already have it or will get it within a week. 5 hospitals. Phizer vaccine - 1,000 vaccines for each hospital. Plan to administer first week of December.

Phase 1 wave 2 - Walgreens/cvs coordinating distribution to residents of LTC (coming from the feds) First week of January - consideration to add teachers to this phase.

Phase 1 wave 3 - first responders other healthcare workers, home health, essential workers

 
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1 hour ago, T-Shirt said:

My daughter's Sister-in-law was just in a meeting with the Governor of Utah regarding vaccine distribution.  Here are her notes:

Phizer getting emergency use likely today or within a week.

Phizer - US will only get 20-30 million doses.

Utah will get 1% of all of US dosages.

Plan on vaccines changes daily. The legislature has a different idea of who should get vaccinated first and is fighting the current plan released.

Phase 1 wave 1 - hospitals - likely already have it or will get it within a week. 5 hospitals. Phizer vaccine - 1,000 vaccines for each hospital. Plan to administer first week of December.

Phase 1 wave 2 - Walgreens/cvs coordinating distribution to residents of LTC (coming from the feds) First week of January - consideration to add teachers to this phase.

Phase 1 wave 3 - first responders other healthcare workers, home health, essential workers

 

What is LTC?

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1 hour ago, T-Shirt said:

My daughter's Sister-in-law was just in a meeting with the Governor of Utah regarding vaccine distribution.  Here are her notes:

Phizer getting emergency use likely today or within a week.

Phizer - US will only get 20-30 million doses.

Utah will get 1% of all of US dosages.

Plan on vaccines changes daily. The legislature has a different idea of who should get vaccinated first and is fighting the current plan released.

Phase 1 wave 1 - hospitals - likely already have it or will get it within a week. 5 hospitals. Phizer vaccine - 1,000 vaccines for each hospital. Plan to administer first week of December.

Phase 1 wave 2 - Walgreens/cvs coordinating distribution to residents of LTC (coming from the feds) First week of January - consideration to add teachers to this phase.

Phase 1 wave 3 - first responders other healthcare workers, home health, essential workers

 

Interesting.  I thought the US bought 100 million doses (With the ability to buy up to 500 million more) from Pfizer.  Maybe this is just the first installment.  
 

Because this is a 2 dose series, that means out of 20- 30 million doses only 10-15 million people will be vaccinated from it.

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20 minutes ago, pogi said:

Interesting.  I thought the US bought 100 million doses (With the ability to buy up to 500 million more) from Pfizer.  Maybe this is just the first installment.  
 

Because this is a 2 dose series, that means out of 20- 30 million doses only 10-15 million people will be vaccinated from it.

They can only produce so many doses per month so the 100 million is over time.

I'm sure the US can buy more but the Moderna vaccine is more stable so I think they will buy more of that one.

Edited by bsjkki
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51 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

They can only produce so many doses per month so the 100 million is over time.

I'm sure the US can buy more but the Moderna vaccine is more stable so I think they will buy more of that one.

This is partly why I said it was stupid of them to buy 100 million doses before the testing was even complete.  

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I know some on here have looked to Sweden as a model for how the US should respond to the pandemic.  As I served my mission there (too long ago) I've kept my eye on how things are going.  The short answer would seem to be not well.  Comparing Sweden's deaths to it's three nearest neighbors:

Sweden 6321

Norway 299

Finland 374

Denmark 770

11/15 there were 6738 new cases.

More info here https://covid19.who.int/region/euro/country/se

Also this in the Deseret News

Sweden’s COVID-19 plan isn’t working. What will?

Stefan Lofven, the Swedish prime minister, looked shaken as he addressed his nation Monday, announcing some of the kinds of restrictions Sweden had specifically avoided earlier in this pandemic year. Gatherings will be limited to eight people or less. Bars can’t serve alcohol after 10 p.m.

 

Edited by ksfisher
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20 minutes ago, pogi said:

This is partly why I said it was stupid of them to buy 100 million doses before the testing was even complete.  

https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/07/22/us-government-engages-pfizer-produce-millions-doses-covid-19-vaccine.html

This explains it. I guess it was 'stupid' of them to engage these companies to produce vaccines for the United States. Really, really stupid.

"The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense (DoD) today announced an agreement with U.S.-based Pfizer Inc. for large-scale production and nationwide delivery of 100 million doses of a COVID-19 vaccine in the United States following the vaccine’s successful manufacture and approval. The agreement also allows the U.S. government to acquire an additional 500 million doses.

The federal government will own the 100 million doses of vaccine initially produced as a result of this agreement, and Pfizer will deliver the doses in the United States if the product receives Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) or licensure from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), as outlined in FDA guidance, after completing demonstration of safety and efficacy in a large Phase 3 clinical trial.

By entering into this agreement now, a safe and effective vaccine can be shipped quickly if FDA grants EUA or licensure. This approach helps meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed goal to begin delivering 300 million of doses of safe and effective vaccine to the American people by the end of the year."

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14 hours ago, juliann said:

It is meaningful because we are now being told masks do protect us.
 

I wear masks, but I’m very aware that we were out and out lied to initially, masks don’t work so don’t use them. That they wanted the limited masks for health care workers is irrelevant to the fact that they lied. Then we were told masks only protect others....before they said they do protect us. 
 

People have good reason to be skeptical. 

Ditto

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3 hours ago, bsjkki said:

https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/07/22/us-government-engages-pfizer-produce-millions-doses-covid-19-vaccine.html

This explains it. I guess it was 'stupid' of them to engage these companies to produce vaccines for the United States. Really, really stupid.

"The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense (DoD) today announced an agreement with U.S.-based Pfizer Inc. for large-scale production and nationwide delivery of 100 million doses of a COVID-19 vaccine in the United States following the vaccine’s successful manufacture and approval. The agreement also allows the U.S. government to acquire an additional 500 million doses.

The federal government will own the 100 million doses of vaccine initially produced as a result of this agreement, and Pfizer will deliver the doses in the United States if the product receives Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) or licensure from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), as outlined in FDA guidance, after completing demonstration of safety and efficacy in a large Phase 3 clinical trial.

By entering into this agreement now, a safe and effective vaccine can be shipped quickly if FDA grants EUA or licensure. This approach helps meet the U.S. government’s Operation Warp Speed goal to begin delivering 300 million of doses of safe and effective vaccine to the American people by the end of the year."

What good is a vaccine if people don't want it?

If pfizer vaccine was only 60% effective, required 2 doses, and had more side effects than all other vaccines - whereas there was another vaccine that was 95% effective, single dose, and very low side effects (keep in mind there are like a dozen or more in development) who would want the pfizer vaccine?  It was a huge gamble with our tax dollars and would have been a waste of billions of dollars (and still may prove to be).  Even as it is, more people are going to want Moderna.  If Johnson and Johnson and others produce a safe and effective single dose, no one will want either pfizer or moderna.  They will go in the trash.  Pfizer is not shelf stable at all and only lasts 5 days in the fridge!!!  Very difficult to ship.  Not the best candidate for a vaccine.  I don't agree with blind purchasing and gambling with tax dollars.

Furthermore, this is a global pandemic.  I don't agree with rich countries having access to the vaccine while poorer countries don't.   That is a less effective model at fighting the global spread of the disease and reducing global human suffering and death.  And unless we attack this on a global scale, we will have limited success on a local level unless nearly all people get vaccinated and it is a long-lasting/lifetime vaccine (I doubt that will happen).

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 Equitable distribution of Covid-19 vaccines globally would prevent 61 per cent of subsequent deaths, compared to 33 per cent of deaths avoided if doses are shared with rich nations first, research shows

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-pfizer-vaccine-doses-latest-uk-supplies-b1721162.html

Yes, I think it is stupid. 

Edited by pogi
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I've wondered how they would do the 2 dose step. If you get the first dose how do they make sure you get the second dose and not have it given as a first dose to someone? 

Especially with the 5 day thing. It's not like you can keep the 2nd dose in your fridge.

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This is interesting. The MMR vaccine may protect against covid. Helps explain why kids may not be getting this. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/finance.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/peer-reviewed-study-mmr-vaccine-131900104.html

“The researchers found a significant inverse correlation (rs = -0.71, P < 0.001) between mumps titers and COVID-19 severity within the group previously vaccinated with the MMR II vaccine by Merck. Mumps titers of 134 to 300 AU/ml (n=8) were only found in those who were functionally immune or asymptomatic. All with mild COVID-19 symptoms had mumps titers below 134 AU/ml (n=17). All with moderate symptoms had mumps titers below 75 AU/ml (n=11). All who had been hospitalized and required oxygen had mumps titers below 32 AU/ml (n=5). Titers were measured by Quest Diagnostics.”

 

Correlation between countries MMR vaccine for adults was pushed and covid.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.immunizationinfo.com/mmr-vaccine-may-protect-against-covid-19/amp/

Edited by bsjkki
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