do We Believe Joseph Smith or Lds Apologists? Joseph Says He Could Translate Egyptian.

[Fair Dinkum]

In a 1843 letter to The Green Mountain Boys, Joseph “tries” to convince the recipient of his letter that he is quite conversant in multiple languages. He even includes examples of his proficiency in each of these languages including many known and a few dead languages. Despite wanting his intended audience to believe he was allegedly fluent in each of the languages he claimed he could speak, Egyptian was one he failed miserably at when seen with a modern lens. 

This letter confirms that Joseph couldn’t speak Egyptian but wanted those around him to believe he could. 
  
Sorry, but why isn’t this problematic? 

 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/transcript/general-joseph-smiths-appeal-to-the-green-mountain-boys-december-1843?print=true

Edited August 15, 2020 by Fair Dinkum

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Fair Dinkum said:

In a 1843 letter to The Green Mountain Boys, Joseph try’s to convince the recipient of his letter that he is quite conversant in multiple languages. He even includes examples of his proficiency in each of these languages including many known and a few dead languages. Despite wanting his intended audience to believe he was allegedly fluent in each of the languages he claimed he could speak, Egyptian was one he failed miserably at when seen with a modern lens. 

This letter confirms that Joseph couldn’t speak Egyptian but wanted those around him to believe he could. 
  
sorry but why isn’t this problematic? 

 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/transcript/general-joseph-smiths-appeal-to-the-green-mountain-boys-december-1843?print=true

“try’s”?

[Fair Dinkum]

29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

“try’s”?

https://www.sciencealert.com/people-who-pick-up-grammar-mistakes-jerks-scientists-find

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149885 

PS: Read Joseph’s Green Mountain Boys letter Bro. Lloyd you’ll have a field day correcting his spelling and grammatical errors. Guess Joseph and I have something in common. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Fair Dinkum

[2BizE]

No, I don’t believe JS could read or speak Egyptian.  It is clear that he wanted to impress people with his skills that he was inventing.  It is a classic example of fraud.  Apologists are just trying to do everything they can rather than face the inevitable truth that they too have been deceived.  Sorry if this offends some folks...

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

https://www.sciencealert.com/people-who-pick-up-grammar-mistakes-jerks-scientists-find

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149885 

PS: Read Joseph’s Green Mountain Boys letter Bro. Lloyd you’ll have a field day correcting his spelling and grammatical errors. Guess Joseph and I have something in common. 

And yet with all of what you say above, people still say he managed to produce the Book of Mormon using early modern English.  That's pretty impressive.

Can you please point out where in the letter you linked in the opening post that Joseph said he could translate Egyptian?

Edit:  The title of this thread at the time of making this post is:   "do We Believe Joseph Smith or Lds Apologists? Joseph Says He Could Translate Egyptian."  I'm adding this to make it clear that the claim associated with the letter is in the headline.

Edited August 15, 2020 by InCognitus

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

https://www.sciencealert.com/people-who-pick-up-grammar-mistakes-jerks-scientists-find

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0149885 

PS: Read Joseph’s Green Mountain Boys letter Bro. Lloyd you’ll have a field day correcting his spelling and grammatical errors. Guess Joseph and I have something in common. 

Ah, another satirical journal. I enjoy the Onion and the Babylon Bee, but I have to say I’ve not heard of this one. Thanks for the link. 
 

But “try’s” is technically not a grammar mistake. It’s a spelling error — and an innovative one at that. The presence of the apostrophe is remarkable. 
 

By the way, I think you have scarcely any idea how often I DO let things slide by when I spot them. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

“try’s”?

Can you answer the question?

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

No, I don’t believe JS could read or speak Egyptian.  It is clear that he wanted to impress people with his skills that he was inventing.  It is a classic example of fraud.  Apologists are just trying to do everything they can rather than face the inevitable truth that they too have been deceived.  Sorry if this offends some folks...

I think it's like losing a loved one, but replace it with belief. It's like telling someone their mate isn't who they say they believe with all their hearts they are. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Can you answer the question?

I lack the interest. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

“try’s”?

Oh come ON for Pete's sake.

Don't you realize that this just trivializes all your other posts?

Surely you can help people with their questions without making comments about typos??

[webbles]

16 hours ago, 2BizE said:

No, I don’t believe JS could read or speak Egyptian.  It is clear that he wanted to impress people with his skills that he was inventing.  It is a classic example of fraud.  Apologists are just trying to do everything they can rather than face the inevitable truth that they too have been deceived.  Sorry if this offends some folks...

Considering that Joseph Smith never claimed to be perfect, what's wrong with him boasting?  Why do believers have to believe that Joseph was infallible when he never claimed that and in fact explicitly denied it?

Accepting Joseph Smith is a prophet doesn't mean that he was a perfect being.  It just means that God used him to reveal His truth.  There's plenty of precedent for prophets to be fallible.

Edited August 16, 2020 by webbles
fix a mispelling

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

By the way, I think you have scarcely any idea how often I DO let things slide by when I spot them. 

Such humility!  Such self restraint!

[mgy401]

Did anyone actually read the letter?  I don’t see him trying to convince anyone he’s conversant in any particular language or boasting of his ability to translate.  I see him damning the injustice of the US Government and, as a rhetorical device, invoking seventeen different languages to point out just how extraordinarily unjust the Van Buren administration has been.

If I were trying to embarrass Joseph Smith with this letter, I’d take the tack of pointing out that it looks an awful lot like Joseph is trying to incite a civil war by inviting Vermonters to take revenge for the wrongs perpetrated by Missourians against Smith, their fellow Vermonter.  But then, it turns out that Smith didn’t write the document anyways.  

Edited August 15, 2020 by mgy401

[Kenngo1969]

53 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

No, I don’t believe JS could read or speak Egyptian.  It is clear that he wanted to impress people with his skills that he was inventing.  It is a classic example of fraud.  Apologists are just trying to do everything they can rather than face the inevitable truth that they too have been deceived.  Sorry if this offends some folks...

No, you're not.

[Fair Dinkum]

16 minutes ago, mgy401 said:

Did anyone actually read the letter?  I don’t see him trying to convince anyone he’s conversant in any particular language or boasting of his ability to translate.  I see him damning the injustice of the US Government and, as a rhetorical device, invoking seventeen different languages to point out just how extraordinarily unjust the Van Buren administration has been.

If I were trying to embarrass Joseph Smith with this letter, I’d take the tack of pointing out that it looks an awful lot like Joseph is trying to incite a civil war by inviting Vermonters to take revenge for the wrongs perpetrated by Missourians against Smith, their fellow Vermonter.  But then, it turns out that Smith didn’t write the document anyways.  

Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim: Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah. (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.)

An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) A Grecian: Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God:) A Turk. Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) A German: sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) A Syrian: Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) A Spaniard: ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) A Samaritan: Saunau! (O Stranger!) An Italian: Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) A Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) A Dane: Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) A Saxon: Hwaet riht! (What right!) A Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) A Polander: Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) A Western Indian: She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) A Roman: Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) But as I am I will only add: when the wicked rule the people mourn.

 

[mgy401]

3 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim: Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah. (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.)

An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) A Grecian: Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God:) A Turk. Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) A German: sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) A Syrian: Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) A Spaniard: ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) A Samaritan: Saunau! (O Stranger!) An Italian: Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) A Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) A Dane: Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) A Saxon: Hwaet riht! (What right!) A Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) A Polander: Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) A Western Indian: She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) A Roman: Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) But as I am I will only add: when the wicked rule the people mourn.

 

Makes me wonder what I would exclaim if my name were William W. Phelps.  

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

No, I don’t believe JS could read or speak Egyptian.  It is clear that he wanted to impress people with his skills that he was inventing.  It is a classic example of fraud.  Apologists are just trying to do everything they can rather than face the inevitable truth that they too have been deceived.  Sorry if this offends some folks...

Not necessarily.  Since I am not an expert on Egyptian stuff, I don't profess to have your level of Egyptian expertise.  I do think however it is  possible that Joseph Smith had enough knowledge in Egyptian to at least for him to believe that he could read or speak Egyptian.  If one believes this to be the case, that does not constitute fraud.  If I watch some Youtube videos on fixing sprinkler systems,  I can say to my neighbor I know how to do this or that while not being an expert sprinkler system technician.  I am not committing fraud by helping my neighbor fix his system even though I may make some mistakes while fixing the system.   If Joseph Smith actually believed it, it is not fraud.  In all cases of fraud, the person knows they are committing fraud. 

Edited August 15, 2020 by carbon dioxide

[let’s roll]

59 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think it's like losing a loved one, but replace it with belief. It's like telling someone their mate isn't who they say they believe with all their hearts they are. 

Hi Tacenda.  Can you help me understand your analogy?  Are you saying I should trust what someone says about who my mate is over my own view, based on 40+ years of daily personal experience in coming to understand my mate?  Not sure I see the logic there.

 

[Bob Crockett]

9 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I do think however it is  possible that Joseph Smith had enough knowledge in Egyptian to at least for him to believe that he could read or speak Egyptian.  If one believes this to be the case, that does not constitute fraud. 

Although the Rosetta Stone had been found, it had not been translated.  Nobody knew Egyptian.

[InCognitus]

26 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim: Keed’nauh ta-meroon le-hoam olauhayauh dey-shemayauh veh aur’kau lau gnaubadoo yabadoo ma-ar’gnau oomeen tehoat shemayauh alah. (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heavens and earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.)

An Egyptian: Su e-eh-ni: (What other persons are those?) A Grecian: Diabolos bassileuei: (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman: Messieurs sans Dieu, (Gentlemen without God:) A Turk. Ain shems: (The fountain of light.) A German: sie sind unferstandig. (What consummat ignorance!) A Syrian: Zaubol. (Sacrifice!) A Spaniard: ll sabio muda conscio, il nescio no. (A wise man reflects, a fool does not.) A Samaritan: Saunau! (O Stranger!) An Italian: Oh tempa! oh diffidanza! (O the times! o the diffidence!) A Hebrew: Ahtauh ail rauey. (Thou God seest me.) A Dane: Hyad tidende! (What tidings!) A Saxon: Hwaet riht! (What right!) A Sweede: Hyad skilia: (What skill!) A Polander: Nav-yen-shoo bah pon na Jesu Christus; (Blessed be the name of Jesus Christ.) A Western Indian: She-mo-kah she-mo-keh teh ough-ne gah. (The white man, O the white man, he very uncertain.) A Roman: Procul, o procul este profani! (Be off, be off ye profane!) But as I am I will only add: when the wicked rule the people mourn.

 

So where is the part where he claims to translate Egyptian?

[Rajah Manchou]

48 minutes ago, mgy401 said:

Makes me wonder what I would exclaim if my name were William W. Phelps.  

We-weh-wni Weed’wauh wa-pheroon phe-phoam!

[Bob Crockett]

50 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

So where is the part where he claims to translate Egyptian?

It is obviously implied.

[Rivers]

Joseph Smith, W. W. Phelps, and others had a fascination with ancient languages.  So they attempted to decipher the Egyptian language.  They clearly were engaging in pseudo-19th century scholarship.  

Can Joseph be both a prophet and a bad scholar?

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

It is obviously implied.

"Obviously"?  So would you "obviously" also assume from that that Joseph could translate Chaldean, Greek, French, Turkish, German, Arabic, Spanish, Samaritan, Italian, Hebrew, Swedish, Polish, and Latin?

Edited August 16, 2020 by InCognitus

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, 2BizE said:

No, I don’t believe JS could read or speak Egyptian.  It is clear that he wanted to impress people with his skills that he was inventing.  It is a classic example of fraud.  Apologists are just trying to do everything they can rather than face the inevitable truth that they too have been deceived.  Sorry if this offends some folks...

Oh don't be silly and exaggerate the situation. How many times did Joseph and Brigham both tell the saints they were human and they each were filled with weaknesses?  How many times was their counsel to follow the Spirit and not to rely on them as the example to follow?

If this letter is accurate then Joseph was seeking the admiration of others and was willing to lie to aggrandize himself. Oh no, a human. Everyone run for the hills, lock your doors, a human is acting just like others humans. What will we do?

How often will individuals fall for this silliness? How often will you demand perfection from leaders and put them on high pedestals and then try with all your might to knock them off. The lesson from them is that is error. They are human and were always human from the day they were born until the day they died. Now, please tell me your excuse for your actions and shortcomings? Begin with hypocrisy.