Area Presidency Asks That Church Members in Utah Wear Face Masks

[USU78]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah, you’re right. Still makes me mad, though. 

They frown on 66 year old former boxers punching out little boorish pukes.

[Scott Lloyd]

47 minutes ago, USU78 said:

They frown on 66 year old former boxers punching out little boorish pukes.

The pukes don’t know how lucky they are, I guess. 

[USU78]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The pukes don’t know how lucky they are, I guess. 

Hah!

[2BizE]

On 7/10/2020 at 11:35 PM, CA Steve said:

It's the kind of statement that should be coming from the 1st presidency itself and be directed to all members throughout the world.

Everyone outside of the USA and Utah are already smart enough to wear a mask.  They don’t need the message because they heed counsel from government leaders.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Everyone outside of the USA and Utah are already smart enough to wear a mask.  They don’t need the message because they heed counsel from government leaders.

This assumes that every government is giving the selfsame advice ... and that this advice is never updated in accordance with local developments. Not so. And I'm glad for that. I'm likewise glad that the Church is following the same pattern. What is consistent is that we've been encouraged to be 'good citizens and good neighbours' and to 'follow the directions of ... local health authorit[ies]'. Neither of these should be hard for a people whose scriptures repeatedly teach the former and whose Articles of Faith include the latter.

Parenthetically, I'm still amazed at how thoroughly Americans have managed to politicise and polarise nearly every aspect of a global health concern -- including the wearing of face coverings. From a distance, both (all?) sides of the tumult appear rather 'provincial' -- i.e., this is not about America or its overwrought political climate to anyone but (some) Americans.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, USU78 said:

Masks are a horrible imposition for the likes of her. Demanding that she comply (with the immediate attendant risks to her) so that the fearful can look at a sea of masked faces better dang well be worth it, and nobody but nobody should be remotely happy about this.

If there was general compliance, I suspect the few who didn’t wear masks would be generally assumed to be not wearing them for medical reasons. 
 

That fact that many have made it a political, personal liberty issue has created a problem for those who don’t wear them for other reasons. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

The ones I have seen were between 2 and 3 months.  

Meaning they were infected twice?  Were they mild or no symptoms first, so they didn’t build up enough immunity or does it look like even a strong immunity response or whatever you would call it may not be long lasting, at least for some. 
 

answered the first part....

Edited July 13, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

Everyone outside of the USA and Utah are already smart enough to wear a mask.  They don’t need the message because they heed counsel from government leaders.

Not exactly, this report claims less than a third are wearing them in parts of the UK:

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/07/09/1594305988000/Why-are-we-not-wearing-masks-in-the-UK-/

1 out of 10 wearing masks in Paris:

https://www.france24.com/en/20200522-all-of-france-wanted-masks-now-they-re-not-wearing-them

Asian countries appear to be better, but enforcement seems high in some places; they are given fines or jail in India, apparently shocks by police in Pakistan.  Malaysia has 86% compliance which means 14% are still not  

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1110960/malaysia-wearing-masks-during-covid-19-outbreak/

I have seen pictures and complaints from a number of countries, though it may be more a local thing then the general public like in the US and the UK. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Calm

[USU78]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

If there was general compliance, I suspect the few who didn’t wear masks would be assumed to be not wearing them for medical reasons. 
 

That fact they do many have made it a political, personal liberty issue has created a problem for those who don’t wear them for other reasons. 

That deflects from the real issue, which is the nastiness of the mask-shamer. If the area presidency intended that Saints should engage in that nasty business, I'll eat your hat with pickle relish. And I hate pickle relish 

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

If there was general compliance, I suspect the few who didn’t wear masks would be assumed to be not wearing them for medical reasons. 
 

That fact they do many have made it a political, personal liberty issue has created a problem for those who don’t wear them for other reasons. 

Very true!

[Calm]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

I have documented indisputable proof that it is happening.  

Healthcare worker who is required to take random screenings at work.  She becomes symptomatic in March and tests positive for Covid.  Recovers and is only able to return to work with 2 negative tests 24 hours apart.  After around 3 weeks she gets her 2 negative tests.  She takes an antibody test later and it shows positive for antibodies.  She now has 2 tests solidifying her positive results.  She also has 2 negative tests (and I think 1 or 2 others after that as part of screening for work) solidifying her recovery.  June comes around and she starts feeling feverish again with severe fatigue and takes another test.  Guess what?  Yep, positive...again.  That is indisputable proof.  That is just one of 3 solid cases I have seen.  There are 2 others which are highly probably reinfections but can't be proven.  

Who is Snopes? 

Is it that unusual for an occasional case of reinfection to occur with diseases that generally establish a lasting immunity?  Could they just be the typical exception to the rule of immunity or is it more a given if any can get reinfected, chances are immunity won’t be long lasting?

[Rain]

4 hours ago, USU78 said:

That deflects from the real issue, which is the nastiness of the mask-shamer. If the area presidency intended that Saints should engage in that nasty business, I'll eat your hat with pickle relish. And I hate pickle relish 

No one should be shaming your wife.  Just as no one should be shaming those who wear masks. 

Unfortunately, the later happened at the beginning of all this.  I hated going to the grocery store, not because I was fearful of covid, but fearful over someone coming after me for wearing a mask.

My husband does not like to do his ministering to one family here.  They ask him often to give a blessing and then mock him on his mask EVERY single time.  It takes everything he has to be prepared to give the blessing, listen to the Lord and love the person.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

No one should be shaming your wife.  Just as no one should be shaming those who wear masks. 

Precisely. Below is an image that one of my American Facebook 'friends' actually posted today:

Meanwhile, one of the women whom I taught as a missionary, and who has left the Church for Progressivism, has a thread on her Facebook page where she and her like-minded friends are fantasising about what rude or even violent acts they should commit against anyone they see in public without a face covering.

Neither of these responses is about public health; rather, each is a political proxy. And I find them both equally ugly and equally stupid.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan

[HappyJackWagon]

On 7/11/2020 at 1:35 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

General Church leadership is all too often criticized for being too provincial in its directives and responses to current circumstances. Yet now, folks are fussing over the First Presidency letting the Utah Area Presidency handle a Utah-based matter. 
 

It’s another illustration of their being darned if they do and darned if they don’t. 

You're right. The church is often criticized for bein provincial but IMO it would be a difficult position to argue that they aren't. When things hit Utah, they tend to pay closer attention. It's natural and I don't think it is done because they don't care about areas but we all tend to notice what is happening in our own backyard more than what's happening in other areas of the world. 

I don't think it would be provincial for top church leadership to address the global pandemic and safety precautions people could take. They've had months in which they could do this. If they only respond once it dramatically hits Utah, that would be a provincial reaction.

At this point, this is a big enough issue worldwide, or at the very least in the US, that it would seem there could be some coordination for a larger group than just the Utah Area Presidency's area. This is the largest worldwide issue going on right now. I think most of us would agree on that. A message to a worldwide audience would seem appropriate.

[ksfisher]

12 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Everyone outside of the USA and Utah are already smart enough to wear a mask.  They don’t need the message because they heed counsel from government leaders.

Everyone? 

Britain is the worst-hit country outside of the US and Brazil. But it STILL won't wear masks

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/12/health/britain-masks-intl-gbr

 

Hyperbole always sits wrong with me.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by ksfisher

[Anijen]

On 7/11/2020 at 9:58 PM, Calm said:

 Pogi is probably best informed.

Why is that? Why is Pogi better than quoting directly from virus disease expert out of one of the best known disease control centers in the world (UNMC)?

 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

we all tend to notice what is happening in our own backyard more than what's happening in other areas of the world. 

Which may mean members who think the Church is so provincial aren't paying much attention to other parts of the world.

It makes sense to have a lot of attention on Utah by leadership not only because it is church headquarters, but because it holds a ton of Saints in its borders.

However giving Utah and the Mormon Corridor or even the US attention doesn't stop them from giving attention to other areas of the world, attention fitted to the needs of the Saints there, the culture, and the ability of the Church to influence nonmembers, government, etc.  If little political or economic clout, they may have to depend on the relationships of influential Saints in the Area...which means there may not be much public appeal to local Saints or publicizingof efforts because it is more diplomacy than community pressure or whatever.  

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Why is that? Why is Pogi better than quoting directly from virus disease expert out of one of the best known disease control centers in the world (UNMC)?

 

He is the best informed on the board is what I meant.  He has also been doing contact tracing in Utah since this stuff started, so he is likely very familiar with how the infection cycles run here in Utah and what else is happening here and where the cases are popping up now....or hopefully not popping up,

Do you have a direct quote answering this question I was responding to:

Quote

Do we have any data yet on how mask mandates in SLC and Summit counties are impacting the rate of virus spread?

Is your expert saying anything about Summit or SLC?

Edited July 13, 2020 by Calm

[ksfisher]

19 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't think it would be provincial for top church leadership to address the global pandemic and safety precautions people could take.

 

Mask Your Face, Don't Mask Your Heart

By Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/dont-mask-the-heart-dieter-f-uchtdorf

and

Guidelines for Safely Returning to Church Meetings and Activities

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/multimedia/file/safely-return-to-church-meetings-activities-guidelines-2020.pdf

and

Preventative Measures for Members*

• Regularly and thoroughly wash your hands with soap and water or clean them with an alcohol-based hand rub.
• Avoid close contact with people who are sick (this may include avoiding shaking hands or other customary greetings).
• Avoid touching your eyes, nose and mouth.
• Stay home when you are sick.
• Cover your cough or sneeze with a tissue, then throw the tissue in the trash.
• Maintain at least six feet (two meters) distance between yourself and anyone who is coughing or sneezing.
• Clean and disinfect frequently touched objects and surfaces using a regular household cleaning spray or wipe.
• Follow public health agency recommendations for using a face mask.

*Based on recommendations from the World Health Organization and the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Local leaders should encourage members to follow these guidelines.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/coronavirus-update#preventative-measures

Edited July 13, 2020 by ksfisher

[Anijen]

"I wear a mask because I care about others"

My aunt said this to another friend on social media. Although I do not disagree with the statement, I do find it a little bit both of virtue signaling and mask-shaming.

We all care about other people. I suspect that those who choose not to wear masks care about other people too. I furthermore suspect that the people we care about the most is our families, yet, we (in general), do not wear masks at home. Do we not care about our families?

[Anijen]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

He is the best informed on the board is what I meant.  He has also been doing contact tracing in Utah since this stuff started, so he is likely very familiar with how the infection cycles run here in Utah and what else is happening here and where the cases are popping up now....or hopefully not popping up,

I thought it might be something like that. I enjoy Pogi's posts too. I am careful to cite my sources of information when I post stats or expert advice, hence the reason I asked.

 

Quote

 

Do you have a direct quote answering this question I was responding to:

Is your expert saying anything about Summit or SLC?

 

I do not have a direct quote. I just got back from a week in Yellowstone so I am new to this conversation. I was scrolling down reading all the posts and just replied to a few of them as I went. So. I do need to go back and read the rest. UNMC (University Nebraska Medical Center), in Omaha Nebraska has one of the best infectious disease departments in the world. I typically will quote from them. I have not looked them up since I have been back. 

Thanks.

[Daniel2]

On 7/11/2020 at 12:46 AM, Calm said:

I agree that it would be more effective to come from the First Presidency.  I hope this happens, but I understand why they left it to the appropriate authority. 
 

I am not sure it is appropriate for global direction. Places like New Zealand where Covid has been very well controlled may not be requiring masks for the healthy due to very low risk of being infectious. 

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-health-advice-general-public/covid-19-use-face-masks-community

Maybe better to respond to local conditions to make it clear leadership is paying attention to needs of members rather than just treating everyone like they are Americans.  That way more likely to get compliance where it is needed. Plus it is the way it should be given most members are not Americans. 

I'm late to this thread so someone may have already said this, but I sure wish the First Presidency would chime in and encourage members to follow the recommendations of the members' own local/regional civic leaders in accordance with the recommendations made by WHO and/or local CDCs.  It's tragic that mask-wearing has become politicized.

[Meadowchik]

19 minutes ago, Anijen said:

"I wear a mask because I care about others"

My aunt said this to another friend on social media. Although I do not disagree with the statement, I do find it a little bit both of virtue signaling and mask-shaming.

We all care about other people. I suspect that those who choose not to wear masks care about other people too. I furthermore suspect that the people we care about the most is our families, yet, we (in general), do not wear masks at home. Do we not care about our families?

It is fairly common to see resistance to the fact that combatting the virus is a collective affair. Inescapably so. People will say something like "You do you, I'll do me" in this context while apparently ignoring the fact that we cannot continue to be interdependent as human beings and not impact the spread of the virus. We either stop it or share it, but we do it together.

Of course this is not to invalidate those who have medical reasons precluding mask use. But those of us who can use them will be helping to protect those who cannot.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Meadowchik

[ksfisher]

13 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

I sure wish the First Presidency would chime in and encourage members to follow the recommendations of the members' own local/regional civic leaders in accordance with the recommendations made by WHO and/or local CDCs. 

 

•  

 

Guidelines for Safely Returning to Church Meetings and Activities

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/multimedia/file/safely-return-to-church-meetings-activities-guidelines-2020.pdf

On March 12, 2020, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles announced that all public gatherings of Church members were temporarily suspended worldwide due to the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic.These Brethren have now authorized that meetings and activities may be resumed using a phased approach when local government regulations allow and Area Presidencies inform local leaders.When such permission is granted for your location, please proceed in a cautious, carefully planned and coordinated manner based on local government regulations.

and

Preventative Measures for Members*

• Regularly and thoroughly wash your hands with soap and water or clean them with an alcohol-based hand rub.
• Avoid close contact with people who are sick (this may include avoiding shaking hands or other customary greetings).
• Avoid touching your eyes, nose and mouth.
• Stay home when you are sick.
• Cover your cough or sneeze with a tissue, then throw the tissue in the trash.
• Maintain at least six feet (two meters) distance between yourself and anyone who is coughing or sneezing.
• Clean and disinfect frequently touched objects and surfaces using a regular household cleaning spray or wipe.
• Follow public health agency recommendations for using a face mask.

*Based on recommendations from the World Health Organization and the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Local leaders should encourage members to follow these guidelines.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/coronavirus-update#preventative-measures

 

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by ksfisher

[pogi]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Is it that unusual for an occasional case of reinfection to occur with diseases that generally establish a lasting immunity?  Could they just be the typical exception to the rule of immunity or is it more a given if any can get reinfected, chances are immunity won’t be long lasting?

It does happen, but it is pretty rare for a person to see reinfections with diseases that cause lasting immunity.  My anecdotal experience and examples certainly are not enough to conclusively state that immunity is short lived, but it is hard to shake my experience.  I work closely with 5 other investigators.  Every single one of them have examples of solid documented reinfections.  I should mention that we have well over 100 investigators in Salt Lake County now.  It is highly unlikely that we are only seeing these reinfections within my small network of co-workers.   In fact, we have been seeing reinfections so regularly that the County has developed new protocol to address reinfections.  It is happening at a MUCH higher rate than we would expect to see if it gave long-term immunity.  

Unfortunately, there is new evidence from 2 different studies which supports my experience and observations:

Quote

 

In the first longitudinal study of its kind, King’s College London researchers analysed immune responses from 90 patients and healthcare workers from from St Guy’s and Thomas’ NHS Foundation trust, and found that 60 per cent of people had “potent” levels of antibodies around three weeks from the first sign of symptoms, The Guardian reported.

This figure then dropped to less than 17 per cent after three months, while antibody levels fell as much as 23 times fold during this period. In some cases they became undetectable.

The research finds that much like the common cold, the illness could continue to reinfect people on an annual basis, and further undermines the idea that herd immunity could wipe out the disease.

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/covid-19-immunity-lost-reinfection-530965

 

Quote

In this study, we observed that IgG levels and neutralizing antibodies in a high proportion of individuals who recovered from SARS-CoV-2 infection start to decrease within 2–3 months after infection. In another analysis of the dynamics of neutralizing antibody titers in eight convalescent patients with COVID-19, four patients showed decreased neutralizing antibodies approximately 6–7 weeks after illness onset

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/covid-19-antibodies-fade-months-study/story?id=71406787

Quote

 

"I think that you're going to see as the immune response wanes in these respiratory infections, there is a possibility that you could get reinfected," said Dr. Robert Garry, professor at the Tulane University School of Medicine.

There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second infection, according to the World Health Organization. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/covid-19-antibodies-fade-months-study/story?id=71406787

 

These studies are preliminary and have some limitations, but they are concerning in that it supports what I am seeing. 

People ask me every day, "can I get re-infected?"  So far, all I can say is that "it is not likely in the short term, but we don't know for sure about long-term immunity.  Please continue to use precautions."

 

 

 

    

Edited July 13, 2020 by pogi