So We Attended Church Today, First Time in Three Months....

[pogi]

1 hour ago, longview said:

As the level of covid contagion approaches the normal seasonal flu fluctuations, the need for hysteria diminishes.  

What do you mean by "level of covid contagion"?  And what makes you think we are anywhere near "normal seasonal flu fluctuations"?  I don't remember the last time I heard of anyone contracting the flu in June (extremely rare). Why should we compare this to the flu anyway?   It has a different infection rate (much higher), different mortality rate (much higher), it doesn't appear to be seasonal in the same way, different hospitalization rate (much higher), and here in Utah we are surging in cases and hospitalizations.  Please don't lull people into a false sense of security. We need to be more vigilant in Utah right now then we ever have been. 

 

[Kenngo1969]

12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Do you do it for yourself?

 

Meh, I"m not sure how comfortable I am with that, even though it is "kosher."  I've never exercised the Priesthood on my own behalf alone.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

This would put a barrier in the way of paying tithing for many seniors and lower economic status members of the church. 

Exceptions would have to be made, especially in the case of young children who are learning the principle of tithing. 
 

But all that’s really needed is an internet connection, a bank account and knowing one’s own membership record number (MRM) for setting up the online account with the Church. Surely the vast majority of tithe-paying adults In First World countries could manage these things. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Meh, I"m not sure how comfortable I am with that, even though it is "kosher."  I've never exercised the Priesthood on my own behalf alone.

I should think this is one instance when it is not only permitted but appropriate (assuming proper authorization from the bishop, of course). Were I living alone, I would do it without hesitation. 
 

Unless there is some rule or regulation I don’t know about that forbids administering the sacrament for oneself. That’s entirely possible, I suppose. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

49 minutes ago, Boanerges said:

Some people are much more social than others. For some, the church is (at least was) their entire social life. I have long believed that there are some members who are only there for socialization because they otherwise really don't seem to "get it" and don't seem to have much in the way of deep testimony (but I try not to judge, at least they are there and something has to rub off). Not that I don't like the people in my ward and all of my close friends are indeed members of the church, but socialization is not why I attend church. I attend to take the sacrament and remember my Savior, something I am currently allowed to do at home. I understand those who want and even truly need to get back to church, but I'm not one of them. 

I’m pretty much of the same mind as you on this. I don’t feel a pressing personal need to socialize. The only consideration I might offer is that my presence and participation helps create and foster a milieu for worship that others might see as vital. 

[Boanerges]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m pretty much of the same mind as you on this. I don’t feel a pressing personal need to socialize. The only consideration I might offer is that my presence and participation helps create and foster a milieu for worship that others might see as vital. 

I do likewise take that into consideration. It is entirely possible that as I have been uplifted by the comment of another in a talk or lesson, others may be uplifted by some comment I may make. Or that simply speaking to someone who may be harboring sorrow that the eye can't see somehow brightens that person's day. Those things are important. Keeping my attention is a whole different story.

[Raingirl]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

One of my American friends who lives in Nevada posted an image of the guidelines they were given for their church service yesterday (just sacrament). It includes:

• No handshaking
• No loitering before or after sacrament meeting
• No congregating in lobbies or other areas of the church
• Please wear a face covering
• Please keep a 6-foot radius between household groups

I can't help but wondering what the point of meeting together is if there is essentially no togetherness happening. 

You can have “togetherness” while still maintaining safe practices. Also, for single sisters such as myself, it provides an opportunity to receive the sacrament. 

[alter idem]

42 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Meh, I"m not sure how comfortable I am with that, even though it is "kosher."  I've never exercised the Priesthood on my own behalf alone.

This is hard for me to understand.  My 91 year old father in law prepares the sacrament for himself, Elder Maxwell tells a story about preparing the sacrament for himself in a foxhole. It would seem you are living below your privileges with this mindset.

[JAHS]

[Kenngo1969]

33 minutes ago, alter idem said:

This is hard for me to understand.  My 91 year old father in law prepares the sacrament for himself, Elder Maxwell tells a story about preparing the sacrament for himself in a foxhole. It would seem you are living below your privileges with this mindset.

Well, when you put it like that ... 

Perhaps.  I'll revisit the question, pondering it in light of what you have said.  Thank you.

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I hope no one is suggesting that someone be assigned to specifically observe and report on the behavior of a minority group in church.  That would go over well.

More like they want the church to beware of the way they perform church with these vulnerable people.

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Exceptions would have to be made, especially in the case of young children who are learning the principle of tithing. 
 

But all that’s really needed is an internet connection, a bank account and knowing one’s own membership record number (MRM) for setting up the online account with the Church. Surely the vast majority of tithe-paying adults In First World countries could manage these things. 

We have one remaining WW2 veteran in my ward.  He doesn't even own a cell phone and with his fixed income I don't think he could afford it.

There are others in similar circumstances.  I don't think we need any barriers.

[Scott Lloyd]

40 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

We have one remaining WW2 veteran in my ward.  He doesn't even own a cell phone and with his fixed income I don't think he could afford it.

There are others in similar circumstances.  I don't think we need any barriers.

Perhaps tithing settlement would be a good opportunity to take a surgical approach to educating the ward about online tithe paying. That way it needn’t be broached with those for whom it could present a barrier. 
 

On second thought, having learned from my own observation last December how few people actually show up for tithing settlement, I’ve lost faith in it as an effective opportunity for information dissemination. 

[longview]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

"Multiple conditions" does not mean Covid.  What do you mean it has been "successfully used"?  Do you simply mean they didn't die or get seriously injured by it?  Or are you trying to convince us that there is actual evidence that these measures successfully treated or prevented Covid (specifically) in these celebrity cases?  If so, CFR or retract.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-for-colds-does-it-actually-work_2505077.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-rich-diet-may-be-tied-to-lower-risk-of-frailty-in-older-adults_2632804.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/5-ways-to-better-absorb-vitamins-and-minerals_3019794.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/n-a-c-could-this-amino-acid-change-your-life_3194542.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3348956.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/part-2censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3359043.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-potential-antiviral-treatment_3371352.html

3 hours ago, pogi said:

You do understand that many, many non-celebrities have died from fatal heart arrhythmias caused by Chloroquine, right?

No.  I am not familiar with the distinctions between Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine.  Also with how Zinc works to make Hydroxychloroquine to make it safer or more effective?  Do you know?

4 hours ago, pogi said:

However, in doing a risk vs benefit assessment with Covid, there simply is not enough evidence to support that the benefit outweighs the risk (which is very real).   Unfortunately, those who are at greatest risk of suffering severe morbidity from Covid are the same population that is at greatest risk for adverse, and potentially fatal, reactions to Chloroquine.   Not to mention the risk of overusing Chloroquine for Covid, which could lead to malaria resistance to the drug, as we see in most parts of the world.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/white-house-says-trump-would-take-hydroxychloroquine-as-prophylactic-again_3369326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/orange-county-doctor-cites-positive-results-using-hydroxychloroquine_3368643.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/hydroxychloroquine-study-corrected-after-more-than-100-scientists-question-findings_3371001.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/medical-journal-acknowledges-serious-concerns-with-controversial-hydroxychloroquine-study_3374976.html

It looks like you are prudent in questioning the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine.

[longview]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

"Multiple conditions" does not mean Covid.  What do you mean it has been "successfully used"?  Do you simply mean they didn't die or get seriously injured by it?  Or are you trying to convince us that there is actual evidence that these measures successfully treated or prevented Covid (specifically) in these celebrity cases?  If so, CFR or retract.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-for-colds-does-it-actually-work_2505077.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-rich-diet-may-be-tied-to-lower-risk-of-frailty-in-older-adults_2632804.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/5-ways-to-better-absorb-vitamins-and-minerals_3019794.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/n-a-c-could-this-amino-acid-change-your-life_3194542.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3348956.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/part-2censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3359043.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-potential-antiviral-treatment_3371352.html

4 hours ago, pogi said:

You do understand that many, many non-celebrities have died from fatal heart arrhythmias caused by Chloroquine, right?

No.  I am not familiar with the distinctions between Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine.  Also with how Zinc works to make Hydroxychloroquine to make it safer or more effective?  Do you know?

4 hours ago, pogi said:

However, in doing a risk vs benefit assessment with Covid, there simply is not enough evidence to support that the benefit outweighs the risk (which is very real).   Unfortunately, those who are at greatest risk of suffering severe morbidity from Covid are the same population that is at greatest risk for adverse, and potentially fatal, reactions to Chloroquine.   Not to mention the risk of overusing Chloroquine for Covid, which could lead to malaria resistance to the drug, as we see in most parts of the world.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/white-house-says-trump-would-take-hydroxychloroquine-as-prophylactic-again_3369326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/orange-county-doctor-cites-positive-results-using-hydroxychloroquine_3368643.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/hydroxychloroquine-study-corrected-after-more-than-100-scientists-question-findings_3371001.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/medical-journal-acknowledges-serious-concerns-with-controversial-hydroxychloroquine-study_3374976.html

It looks like you are prudent in questioning the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine.

[longview]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

"Multiple conditions" does not mean Covid.  What do you mean it has been "successfully used"?  Do you simply mean they didn't die or get seriously injured by it?  Or are you trying to convince us that there is actual evidence that these measures successfully treated or prevented Covid (specifically) in these celebrity cases?  If so, CFR or retract.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-for-colds-does-it-actually-work_2505077.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-rich-diet-may-be-tied-to-lower-risk-of-frailty-in-older-adults_2632804.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/5-ways-to-better-absorb-vitamins-and-minerals_3019794.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/n-a-c-could-this-amino-acid-change-your-life_3194542.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3348956.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/part-2censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3359043.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-potential-antiviral-treatment_3371352.html

4 hours ago, pogi said:

You do understand that many, many non-celebrities have died from fatal heart arrhythmias caused by Chloroquine, right?

No.  I am not familiar with the distinctions between Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine.  Also with how Zinc works to make Hydroxychloroquine to make it safer or more effective?  Do you know?

4 hours ago, pogi said:

However, in doing a risk vs benefit assessment with Covid, there simply is not enough evidence to support that the benefit outweighs the risk (which is very real).   Unfortunately, those who are at greatest risk of suffering severe morbidity from Covid are the same population that is at greatest risk for adverse, and potentially fatal, reactions to Chloroquine.   Not to mention the risk of overusing Chloroquine for Covid, which could lead to malaria resistance to the drug, as we see in most parts of the world.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/white-house-says-trump-would-take-hydroxychloroquine-as-prophylactic-again_3369326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/orange-county-doctor-cites-positive-results-using-hydroxychloroquine_3368643.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/hydroxychloroquine-study-corrected-after-more-than-100-scientists-question-findings_3371001.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/medical-journal-acknowledges-serious-concerns-with-controversial-hydroxychloroquine-study_3374976.html

It looks like you are prudent in questioning the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine.

[longview]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

"Multiple conditions" does not mean Covid.  What do you mean it has been "successfully used"?  Do you simply mean they didn't die or get seriously injured by it?  Or are you trying to convince us that there is actual evidence that these measures successfully treated or prevented Covid (specifically) in these celebrity cases?  If so, CFR or retract.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-for-colds-does-it-actually-work_2505077.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-rich-diet-may-be-tied-to-lower-risk-of-frailty-in-older-adults_2632804.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/5-ways-to-better-absorb-vitamins-and-minerals_3019794.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/n-a-c-could-this-amino-acid-change-your-life_3194542.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3348956.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/part-2censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3359043.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-potential-antiviral-treatment_3371352.html

4 hours ago, pogi said:

You do understand that many, many non-celebrities have died from fatal heart arrhythmias caused by Chloroquine, right?

No.  I am not familiar with the distinctions between Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine.  Also with how Zinc works to make Hydroxychloroquine to make it safer or more effective?  Do you know?

4 hours ago, pogi said:

However, in doing a risk vs benefit assessment with Covid, there simply is not enough evidence to support that the benefit outweighs the risk (which is very real).   Unfortunately, those who are at greatest risk of suffering severe morbidity from Covid are the same population that is at greatest risk for adverse, and potentially fatal, reactions to Chloroquine.   Not to mention the risk of overusing Chloroquine for Covid, which could lead to malaria resistance to the drug, as we see in most parts of the world.

https://www.theepochtimes.com/white-house-says-trump-would-take-hydroxychloroquine-as-prophylactic-again_3369326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/orange-county-doctor-cites-positive-results-using-hydroxychloroquine_3368643.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/hydroxychloroquine-study-corrected-after-more-than-100-scientists-question-findings_3371001.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/medical-journal-acknowledges-serious-concerns-with-controversial-hydroxychloroquine-study_3374976.html

It looks like you are prudent in questioning the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine.

[MiserereNobis]

8 minutes ago, longview said:

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-for-colds-does-it-actually-work_2505077.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-rich-diet-may-be-tied-to-lower-risk-of-frailty-in-older-adults_2632804.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/5-ways-to-better-absorb-vitamins-and-minerals_3019794.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/n-a-c-could-this-amino-acid-change-your-life_3194542.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3348956.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/part-2censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3359043.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-potential-antiviral-treatment_3371352.html

No.  I am not familiar with the distinctions between Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine.  Also with how Zinc works to make Hydroxychloroquine to make it safer or more effective?  Do you know?

https://www.theepochtimes.com/white-house-says-trump-would-take-hydroxychloroquine-as-prophylactic-again_3369326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/orange-county-doctor-cites-positive-results-using-hydroxychloroquine_3368643.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/hydroxychloroquine-study-corrected-after-more-than-100-scientists-question-findings_3371001.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/medical-journal-acknowledges-serious-concerns-with-controversial-hydroxychloroquine-study_3374976.html

It looks like you are prudent in questioning the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine.

All of your links are to one source, which is politically biased. Why don’t you quote some scientifically peer reviewed sources instead, since we’re talking medicine?

[longview]

2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

All of your links are to one source, which is politically biased. Why don’t you quote some scientifically peer reviewed sources instead, since we’re talking medicine?

If you will glance at my last line, I am closer to agreeing with Pogi's assertions (at least some of them).  Thanks.

[pogi]

41 minutes ago, longview said:

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-for-colds-does-it-actually-work_2505077.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-rich-diet-may-be-tied-to-lower-risk-of-frailty-in-older-adults_2632804.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/5-ways-to-better-absorb-vitamins-and-minerals_3019794.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/n-a-c-could-this-amino-acid-change-your-life_3194542.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/vitamin-c-may-speed-recovery-after-heart-bypass-surgery_3240326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3348956.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/part-2censoring-evidence-on-vitamin-c_3359043.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/intravenous-vitamin-c-as-a-potential-antiviral-treatment_3371352.html

No.  I am not familiar with the distinctions between Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine.  Also with how Zinc works to make Hydroxychloroquine to make it safer or more effective?  Do you know?

https://www.theepochtimes.com/white-house-says-trump-would-take-hydroxychloroquine-as-prophylactic-again_3369326.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/orange-county-doctor-cites-positive-results-using-hydroxychloroquine_3368643.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/hydroxychloroquine-study-corrected-after-more-than-100-scientists-question-findings_3371001.html

https://www.theepochtimes.com/medical-journal-acknowledges-serious-concerns-with-controversial-hydroxychloroquine-study_3374976.html

It looks like you are prudent in questioning the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine.

You have spent a lot of time looking up links for vitamin C.  I am just browsing over the titles and none of them seem to address Covid and vitamin C.  You have to understand that because a treatment may be effective for one disease or one virus (or even several), it is not an assurance that it will work for all diseases or viruses.  Even if IV vitamin C was totally benign, I hope people understand that this kind of misinformation and false hope can be very dangerous as it may cause some people to feel protected against the disease when they are not. 

You don't need to worry about the differences between Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine, just understand that they have both been revoked by the FDA for use against Covid.  See:

 https://www.ksl.com/article/46765044/us-revokes-emergency-use-of-malaria-drugs-vs-coronavirus

I don't know that zinc lowers risks associated with Chloroquine/Hydroxychloroquine.  I think the thought was that it would make it more effective.  

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by pogi

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, Raingirl said:

You can have “togetherness” while still maintaining safe practices.

I know that's possible, but I just don't see it happening in the list of rules I quoted. People aren't to sit near each other, be together anywhere inside the building, spend time visiting, etc. Someone pointed out that that doesn't stop people catching up outside the meetinghouse, and this is true, but then what's the point of being inside the meetinghouse?

Quote

Also, for single sisters such as myself, it provides an opportunity to receive the sacrament. 

This I completely get! But we're currently making sure that single sisters are receiving sacrament in their homes. I think that might feel more personal? If done according to guidelines, it's certainly safer in places where community transmission is clearly occurring.

I guess at some point I'll have some actual experience to go on. At this point, I'm just musing aloud.

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, pogi said:

none of them seem to address Covid and vitamin C. 

The censoring one did. You have to give them your email to read and I get enough spam, so besides a raid on a clinic advertising great benefits, I don’t know what it says. 

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

...so besides a raid on a clinic advertising great benefits, I don’t know what it says. 

This is precisely the risk of false assurances I am talking about.  People want to believe there is a cheap, inexpensive, pill that will keep them safe from COVID.  Vitamin C is the new toilet paper - there is no good reason for people to stock-up on it, and yet everybody wants it for some reason that defies logic.  I am not about to give them my email either.  If Longview wants to do so and copy/pate relevant info, I'd be happy to read it.  But, we already know it is bologna, because this fabulous news would be widely disseminated by now and not hidden in some obscure political website that requires your email address.  The whole world is trying to find effective prevention/cure, I think if there was any good evidence/studies for Vitamin C and Covid, people would be celebrating in the streets about it. It would be widely publicized. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by pogi

[Raingirl]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I know that's possible, but I just don't see it happening in the list of rules I quoted. People aren't to sit near each other, be together anywhere inside the building, spend time visiting, etc. Someone pointed out that that doesn't stop people catching up outside the meetinghouse, and this is true, but then what's the point of being inside the meetinghouse?

This I completely get! But we're currently making sure that single sisters are receiving sacrament in their homes. I think that might feel more personal? If done according to guidelines, it's certainly safer in places where community transmission is clearly occurring.

I guess at some point I'll have some actual experience to go on. At this point, I'm just musing aloud.

I guess if you don’t understand the value of the saints being able to meet together, even with some restrictions, I can’t explain it to you. Being at church is about more than attending a social event and catching up on gossip.

Providing the sacrament to single sisters in their homes is great  - if and when ithappens. But it’s not happening for all of the single sisters, and definitely not on a regular basis. 

Also, I know exactly how it feels to receive the sacrament, whether in my home or in the meetinghouse. I certainly don’t need your mansplaining it to me. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Also, I know exactly how it feels to receive the sacrament, whether in my home or in the meetinghouse. I certainly don’t need your mansplaining it to me.