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2 hours ago, pogi said:

Do you think the lockdowns in New-York were uncalled for and "insane"?

They absolutely did mismanage the whole thing from the beginning and still are scrambling around.  The governor mocked the administration for taking early action to control international travel.  They very belatedly started having the subway system wipe down the cars every night.  Their nursing home policies were nightmarish.  They did not take advantage of the temporary hospital facilities to enable separation of services.  It is outrageous for non-covid patients to suffer degradation of care because of poorly conceived protocols.

2 hours ago, pogi said:

We don't know If it provides long-term immunity.  I don't recommend having Covid-parties, like people did with chicken pox.

I agree.  It is after all a novel virus.  Now we are seeing levels working out to be "severe outbreak" numbers.  Stop the fear mongering.  Open up to "herd immunity" steps.  Allow all people to make their own individual choices of how to deal with families, work, city and state.  Educate the most vulnerable on how to protect themselves (with the help of families and personal physicians).

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I am confused however, because on one hand you suggest that we shouldn't fear herd immunity, but on the other you recommend taking preventive measures (even though I disagree with your measures). 

Why not?  There will be infections no matter how stringent the measures that are taken.  Lets restore some sanity and allow individuals and small businesses to make their considered judgements and place appropriate postings on their doorways.  This will give both the customers and the proprietors the ability to work thru their own checklists.  For example, my wife and I have weekly appointments with the chiropractor.  They wear masks and they have us note on a questionnaire whether we have traveled and the symptoms.  They point the temperature device at our foreheads.

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Please don't recommend IV vitamin C for prevention of Covid.  Please.

What is the problem.  Many medical professionals have prescribed IV vitamin C for years.  Some as much as 200,000 mg without adverse effects.  There are other vitamins and supplements that require caution.  But there have been no reports of overdosing on vitamin C.  The reason for doing IV is because the digestive system greatly limits the metabolisation of C.

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52 minutes ago, longview said:

They absolutely did mismanage the whole thing from the beginning and still are scrambling around.  The governor mocked the administration for taking early action to control international travel.  They very belatedly started having the subway system wipe down the cars every night.  Their nursing home policies were nightmarish.  They did not take advantage of the temporary hospital facilities to enable separation of services.  It is outrageous for non-covid patients to suffer degradation of care because of poorly conceived protocols.

I just find it highly ironic that those calling for fewer restrictions and a return to life-as-normal are accusing New York for not taking greater precautions.   

Even if they cleaned the subway system every night (like that would have done much!), decided not to follow the white-house instituted nursing home policies (which I agree were a disaster), and fully utilized the temporary hospitals (did you read my article about that?), do you really think New York could have gone about life-as-normal and not suffered serious consequences?   We simply cannot blame the numbers on those 3 failures.  Did they contribute?  The nursing homes surely did, but the other two, I would argue, did very little.  Most deaths were not from  nosocomial infections in hospitals, or from touching contaminated subway surfaces, or even from nursing homes.  Most deaths and hospitalizations were household contacts.

52 minutes ago, longview said:

I agree.  It is after all a novel virus...Open up to "herd immunity" steps.  

 That seems contradictory.  You agree that it may not provide long-term immunity AND suggest that we should open up to herd immunity (which only works with long-term immunity).

52 minutes ago, longview said:

Allow all people to make their own individual choices of how to deal with families, work, city and state.  Educate the most vulnerable on how to protect themselves (with the help of families and personal physicians).

I disagree.  If you are infected with a lethal virus, you don't get to decide if you are going to work or not.  Your work doesn't get to decide if they are going to make you work or not.  If business owners are violating isolation protocol and making asymptomatic employees who have tested positive continue to serve food in a drive-thru to 80 year old patrons and diabetics...ummm, nope.  Not going to fly.  They are serving morbidity and death and we will shut them down if they don't comply.  

52 minutes ago, longview said:

Why not?  There will be infections no matter how stringent the measures that are taken.  Lets restore some sanity and allow individuals and small businesses to make their considered judgements and place appropriate postings on their doorways.  This will give both the customers and the proprietors the ability to work thru their own checklists.  For example, my wife and I have weekly appointments with the chiropractor.  They wear masks and they have us note on a questionnaire whether we have traveled and the symptoms.  They point the temperature device at our foreheads.

I am not advocating for lock-downs - unless it starts getting out of control.  I do stand behind the initial lock-downs that Gov Herbert ordered however.  This was all new and we didn't know what to expect.  Precautionary measures were appropriate to protect our people from what we saw happening in other parts of the world.  We didn't know if what happened in New York or Italy would happen here.  Now that we have a better idea of what we are dealing with in Utah, business is open. We have to look at this in the long-term now and do what is sustainable.  I don't think anyone is calling for long-term lock-downs.  That seems like a red-herring.

52 minutes ago, longview said:

What is the problem.  Many medical professionals have prescribed IV vitamin C for years.  Some as much as 200,000 mg without adverse effects.  There are other vitamins and supplements that require caution.  But there have been no reports of overdosing on vitamin C.  The reason for doing IV is because the digestive system greatly limits the metabolisation of C.

 Does it prevent Covid?  We don't know.  Is it an invasive procedure that has risks associated with it?  We do know that - Yes!  You are probably putting yourself at greater risk of contracting Covid by going to a health clinic to get an IV then to stay home.  Doesn't make sense.  I could see maybe using it as part of treatment for hospitalizations due to Covid, but not for prevention.  How often will you have to get an IV boost for effective prevention?  This thing aint going away any time soon.  Getting a regular IV boost of vitamin C, that might not even be that beneficial in preventing Covid is not a good idea.  Risk vs. benefit.  You are basically gambling. Do what we know works.  It is that simple.  Be guided by science, don't make emotional decisions on what might work because it is helpful with other situations.  That is reckless medicine. 

Pretending like we can get back to life-as-normal by using these unproven methods (which are not without risk), and that everything will be okay, is a disservice to the community and medical field.  It is reckless. 

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4 hours ago, pogi said:

have been eating, sleeping, drinking Covid almost since it began (working 60, 70, 80 hour weeks).  I can diagnose you over the phone by the sound of your cough.  "Sorry buddy, that is not allergies, you have Covid, go get tested and isolate." 

If any of my family gets it, I want you on the phone in a conference call so all the right questions get asked. ;) 

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Can SARS-CoV-2, the Virus that Causes COVID-19 Disease, Be Spread by Blood?

It isn’t that SARS-CoV-2 is a “bloodborne” virus per say, but that it can replicate in blood cells
and affect the blood and its organelles’ (red and white blood cells, hemoglobin) ability to work
effectively. In fact, some people who have had COVID-19 and have recovered have donated their
plasma to be used for experimental COVID-19 treatment. People who have fully recovered from
COVID-19 have antibodies in their plasma that can help to attack the virus. 
This “convalescent plasma” is being evaluated as treatment for patients with serious or
immediately life-threatening COVID-19 infections, or those judged by a health care provider to
be at high risk of progression to severe or life-threatening disease. We do not know yet whether
these antibodies also provide immunity to people who have recovered, and if so for how long.
 It is unlikely that SARS-CoV-2 can be transmitted via occupational exposure to blood. Typically, blood
exposures are caused by needlesticks, injuries involving contaminated sharps
such as sutures, scalpel blades, etc., and splashes to non-intact skin in which there
are cuts, abrasions, or open wounds that allow pathogens to enter. These types of
exposures result in “contaminated” blood potentially entering a worker’s blood."

 

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40 minutes ago, pogi said:

I could see maybe using it as part of treatment for hospitalizations due to Covid, but not for prevention.  How often will you have to get an IV boost for effective prevention? 

Several a day if it lasts for around four hours

Quote

Studies have also shown that vitamin C levels in the blood are higher when given by IV than when taken by mouth, and last for more than 4 hours.

https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/treatment/cam/patient/vitamin-c-pdq

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6 hours ago, pogi said:

I just find it highly ironic that those calling for fewer restrictions and a return to life-as-normal are accusing New York for not taking greater precautions.   

I am sure you understand that I would not object to extra caution in the early going. But I do not accept the need for lockdowns even if limited to a two week interval for the purpose of flattening the curve (their original intention).

New York totally botched their preparations.  It was obvious that the subways needed extreme wipe downs and spacing.  The homeless would have to lose their free rides until the crisis blew over.  Maybe spread out commuters with earlier and later arrivals and departures.  So many things they did not put their minds to.  There were political considerations but I will not discuss them on this board unless Calm says it can be "open season" in this thread.

6 hours ago, pogi said:
7 hours ago, longview said:

I agree.  It is after all a novel virus...Open up to "herd immunity" steps.  

 That seems contradictory.  You agree that it may not provide long-term immunity AND suggest that we should open up to herd immunity (which only works with long-term immunity).

I am sure you understand that enough time has passed to determine the death rate has fallen below 0.2%.  Then of course we MUST opt for herd immunity.  But each individual/family still has the choice to apply whatever safeguards they feel is appropriate to mitigate the spread.

6 hours ago, pogi said:
7 hours ago, longview said:

Allow all people to make their own individual choices of how to deal with families, work, city and state.  Educate the most vulnerable on how to protect themselves (with the help of families and personal physicians).

I disagree.  If you are infected with a lethal virus, you don't get to decide if you are going to work or not.  Your work doesn't get to decide if they are going to make you work or not.  If business owners are violating isolation protocol and making asymptomatic employees who have tested positive continue to serve food in a drive-thru to 80 year old patrons and diabetics...ummm, nope.  Not going to fly.  They are serving morbidity and death and we will shut them down if they don't comply.  

You misunderstood.  I agree infected people must be quarantined.

6 hours ago, pogi said:

We have to look at this in the long-term now and do what is sustainable.  I don't think anyone is calling for long-term lock-downs.  That seems like a red-herring.

There are some that are advocating 18 month lock down or until the vaccine is available.  As I have indicated, vaccines are not the most optimal option.

6 hours ago, pogi said:

Does it prevent Covid?  We don't know.  Is it an invasive procedure that has risks associated with it?  We do know that - Yes!  You are probably putting yourself at greater risk of contracting Covid by going to a health clinic to get an IV then to stay home.  Doesn't make sense.  I could see maybe using it as part of treatment for hospitalizations due to Covid, but not for prevention.  How often will you have to get an IV boost for effective prevention?  This thing aint going away any time soon.  Getting a regular IV boost of vitamin C, that might not even be that beneficial in preventing Covid is not a good idea.  Risk vs. benefit.  You are basically gambling. Do what we know works.  It is that simple.  Be guided by science, don't make emotional decisions on what might work because it is helpful with other situations.  That is reckless medicine.

No need for stoking more hysteria.  I have already described the procedures used by actual medical professionals in hospital settings that had excellent and verifiable results. I have not read where it can be used as a preventative but there is literature that it is effective for overcoming infections. The history has been consistent ever since 1930.  Vitamin C has powerful antiviral properties.  Please look up https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659258/

Edited by longview
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Is anyone else feeling out of sync with this covid situation? Like we'll never get back to normal again. And if we do we hopefully will never take for granted a hug..dinner...movie out...sporting events...theater...concerts....too many to list. I feel for young children/adults that won't know what we had when we were their age, if this is going to be years to overcome. There's so much to mourn over right now, in very blessed lives, that we really took for granted. I hope so much God is just trying to warn us to straighten up and he'll put it back somewhat, as long as we've learned our lesson.

Edited by Tacenda

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15 hours ago, longview said:

I am sure you understand that I would not object to extra caution in the early going. But I do not accept the need for lockdowns even if limited to a two week interval for the purpose of flattening the curve (their original intention).

What would have happened if New York didn't lock down.  You can argue they botched their preparations and things could have been different.  But they weren't different.  It happened.  Much greater precautions were taken then any flu season and it still happened.  Around 80,000 medical volunteers were used in New York to help combat the influx and they still were drowning.  I don't even want to think about what kind of death toll your no-shut-down rule would have brought.

15 hours ago, longview said:

I am sure you understand that enough time has passed to determine the death rate has fallen below 0.2%.  Then of course we MUST opt for herd immunity.  But each individual/family still has the choice to apply whatever safeguards they feel is appropriate to mitigate the spread.

 I tire of these bogus numbers.  CFR for 0.2%   Why "MUST" we opt for herd immunity at 0.2%?   You realize what herd immunity entails, right? Mass infection.  You are promoting mass infection!  If the vast majority of Americans were infected with this virus, even at 0.2% mortality rate, that would be around half a million lives lost.  (329 million X .2% = 658,000).  Of course the mortality rate is likely much higher than 0.2%.  658,000 is not even counting severe morbidity, hospitalizations, and intubations (which can cause long-term complications). 

15 hours ago, longview said:

You misunderstood.  I agree infected people must be quarantined.

Why?  That isn't promoting herd immunity.

15 hours ago, longview said:

There are some that are advocating 18 month lock down or until the vaccine is available.  As I have indicated, vaccines are not the most optimal option.

Yes, and there are some people advocating for total anarchy. :rolleyes:.  I heard something like that 2 or 3 months ago, is anyone still promoting that today?  Do we see any evidence of it going that way?  Even New York is already starting to open back up.  Where are these long-term lock-downs happening?  Red herring.   That would never get off the ground and you know it.  

Right, vaccines bad, mass infection good, because you say so. Got it.

15 hours ago, longview said:

No need for stoking more hysteria.  I have already described the procedures used by actual medical professionals in hospital settings that had excellent and verifiable results. I have not read where it can be used as a preventative but there is literature that it is effective for overcoming infections. The history has been consistent ever since 1930.  Vitamin C has powerful antiviral properties.  Please look up https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659258/

Stoking hysteria? How so?  You are promoting false assurance in unfounded and reckless claims.  Vitamin C is NOT proven to "overcome infections" collectively speaking.  It might help shorten hospital stays for some infections, but it is not a universal silver bullet for infectious disease.  Who is feeding you this crap?  This whole time the worlds solution to all infectious disease is vitamin C!?  Who knew?

15 hours ago, longview said:

 What...you mean...this?

Quote

Vitamin C Is an Essential Factor on the Anti-viral Immune Responses through the Production of Interferon-α/β at the Initial Stage of Influenza A Virus (H3N2) Infection

Did you even read the heading?

It doesn't even claim it is effective against all flu strains let alone Covid.  In case you didn't know there is influenza A, B, C, and D, each with dozens of different subtypes.  H3N2 is one tiny little subtype of influenza.  Even then, it is only effective if you catch it super, super early.  Most people don't seek treatment for flu or Covid in the early stages when symptoms are mild.  It is after a week, at least, before people seek treatment when it progresses into more severe stages.  By then it would be too late if it is only effective in initial stages.  This article was talking more about the dangers of vitamin c deficiency, then it was a support for IV vitamin C in treatment.  In fact, it didn't even mention intravenous vitamin C anywhere in the article.  You are going to have to do better. 

 

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53 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is from the meat processing plant outbreak in Logan.   It’s not really a community wide outbreak...yet.  The CDC has come in to help control the outbreak.

We simply don’t see outbreaks like this with the flu where hundreds and hundreds are infected in a single week in a single company.  Yet, there are some who still pretend like this is really no different from the flu with equal infection rates.  Total denial.

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Posted (edited)

I heard today that the infrequent poster, DBMormon or Bill Reel in real life, and his family all have covid. They may need our prayers. Bill has COPD as well, so not good, if what I heard is true.

Edited by Tacenda

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Not good if so. Let us know if you hear differently or things get worse. 

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Pogi - the multiple symptoms drive me crazy! I have had a cough and congestion in the morning for decades.  Not every day, but it will go in spurts for weeks and then stop. Sometimes bad enough for me to throw up.  I have found no seasonal pattern to it.  It has been present since about February. I've never had it go this long.  

What really gets me though is all the symptoms of covid.  Many of which I have experienced in the last few months that I have not experienced along with the cough thing before...or at least noticed.  

Early on I did the quiz thing on the CDC and it said I should get tested. I did and it was negative.

Yesterday I started with a runny nose.  Not a constant run, but just a little bit here and there.  Then last night I started with a dry cough and had it this morning and now it is back to productive.

This morning all 3 of us in the house have achy muscles, but then we had extra workouts yesterday.

So I'm not looking for you to diagnose me, but how do you suggest people deal with so many symptoms?  I feel like I am constantly assessing whether this is a covid symptom or not. If you just had the few main ones it would be easy, but with so many smaller symptoms I think there could be a lot of people that have them, but don't recognize them because they also often have a cough, headache, are tired etc.   How do you determine "this is normal" and "this is not my normal and I shouldn't go to the grocery store today"?

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16 minutes ago, Rain said:

Pogi - the multiple symptoms drive me crazy! I have had a cough and congestion in the morning for decades.  Not every day, but it will go in spurts for weeks and then stop. Sometimes bad enough for me to throw up.  I have found no seasonal pattern to it.  It has been present since about February. I've never had it go this long.  

What really gets me though is all the symptoms of covid.  Many of which I have experienced in the last few months that I have not experienced along with the cough thing before...or at least noticed.  

Early on I did the quiz thing on the CDC and it said I should get tested. I did and it was negative.

Yesterday I started with a runny nose.  Not a constant run, but just a little bit here and there.  Then last night I started with a dry cough and had it this morning and now it is back to productive.

This morning all 3 of us in the house have achy muscles, but then we had extra workouts yesterday.

So I'm not looking for you to diagnose me, but how do you suggest people deal with so many symptoms?  I feel like I am constantly assessing whether this is a covid symptom or not. If you just had the few main ones it would be easy, but with so many smaller symptoms I think there could be a lot of people that have them, but don't recognize them because they also often have a cough, headache, are tired etc.   How do you determine "this is normal" and "this is not my normal and I shouldn't go to the grocery store today"?

It seems like there is no symptom that isn't a possibility of covid.  It makes it rough.

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Today they are doing free testing for those without insurance in Utah. 

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6 hours ago, Rain said:

Pogi - the multiple symptoms drive me crazy! I have had a cough and congestion in the morning for decades.  Not every day, but it will go in spurts for weeks and then stop. Sometimes bad enough for me to throw up.  I have found no seasonal pattern to it.  It has been present since about February. I've never had it go this long.  

What really gets me though is all the symptoms of covid.  Many of which I have experienced in the last few months that I have not experienced along with the cough thing before...or at least noticed.  

Early on I did the quiz thing on the CDC and it said I should get tested. I did and it was negative.

Yesterday I started with a runny nose.  Not a constant run, but just a little bit here and there.  Then last night I started with a dry cough and had it this morning and now it is back to productive.

This morning all 3 of us in the house have achy muscles, but then we had extra workouts yesterday.

So I'm not looking for you to diagnose me, but how do you suggest people deal with so many symptoms?  I feel like I am constantly assessing whether this is a covid symptom or not. If you just had the few main ones it would be easy, but with so many smaller symptoms I think there could be a lot of people that have them, but don't recognize them because they also often have a cough, headache, are tired etc.   How do you determine "this is normal" and "this is not my normal and I shouldn't go to the grocery store today"?

It can be difficult for sure because so many different things can look like Covid. 

If your cough and congestion is normal for you, I wouldn't question it too much unless it changes or progresses into something unusual and abnormal.  If it started in February and is not going away, it is very unlikely to be Covid related. 

What you should watch for is a sudden onset of symptoms that is different from your base-line.

The fact that you have a new runny nose (do you get allergies?), a new cough (It sounds like, but I can't tell if it is new/different or not for you), and new muscle aches (do your muscle aches feel like normal after-workout soreness?  Or is it more like flu achiness?), that sounds like it could be something to get checked out.  Especially if you are not the only one having these symptoms.  

Always ask yourself, "is this normal for me?"  If not, stay home just in case, and get tested.     

Edited by pogi
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Potential good news in treating severe Covid in hospitals with Dexamethasone.  

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-16/low-cost-drug-is-first-to-improve-covid-patients-survival

I wouldn't think to use Dexamethasone (a steroid) which is an immunosuppressant.  Immunosuppressants can suppress your bodies ability to fight off infection.  But it does have a strong anti-inflammatory effect as well, which is probably what is saving lives.   It seems to be reducing deaths by 1/3 with those on ventilators and by 1/5 with those on oxygen.  That is very promising and hopeful!

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So there is no one symptom that has to be present for it to be Covid like a fever or lower oxygen saturation? (Pretty sure the answer is no as that is what the lab tech said, but my daughter said I was confusing and I forgot to ask the doctor...we were there for my daughter’s thyroid so thinking of other things).

Edited by Calm

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On 6/9/2020 at 1:33 PM, Islander said:

Although, for all practical purposes, COVID-19 is the latest viral strand to cause concern, from an epidemiological standpoint there is very little new. Some 80,000 people died of the flu in the 2018-2019 season (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/press-conference-2018-19.htm). Most people had no clue, the media did not bother with it and you saw nobody walking around with gloves or masks.

The mortality rate of COVID-19, rate of infection and propagation, symptomatology and the course of the illness is very similar to influenza (https://now.tufts.edu/articles/how-does-covid-19-compare-flu). The at-risk factors and population are very similar.  In sum, COVID 19 is here to stay and although a vaccine may be in the works and soon available, we are ALL going to get it at some point in time,, just like the flu. Some with natural immunity and strong immune defense will be oblivious to it. The rest will experience mild to moderate flu-like symptoms. The treatment and prophylactic measures are the same.  

What we know as a fact is that the dreaded wave of dead bodies on the streets did not materialize and the healthcare system was not overwhelmed. Estimates of the demise of up to 20% of the US population were greatly exaggerated. 

 

I think you are mistaken Islander.  Covid-2019 is much different than the flu. The rate of hospitalization and ICU/ventilator Support is significantly higher. Intermountain Healthcare physicians went to Nee York to assist and their stories are telling. ICUs that normally handle a handful of Flu patients each year were 6 fold beyond capacity.  How the disease attacks and affects the lung and blood vessels is different from the flu.  According to Utah statistics, people over 65 with one pre-existing condition have a 94.2% chance of dying if they contact the virus.

https://www.ksl.com/article/46766892/coronavirus-updates-utah-sees-586-new-cases-new-studies-shed-light-on-covid-19-in-utah

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From link above:

Quote

Utah’s number of COVID-19 cases has increased by 586 from Thursday, with three new reported deaths, according to the Utah Department of Health.

That's the highest single-day new case total in Utah so far, eclipsing June 6, when there were 546 new cases.

 

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7 hours ago, Calm said:

So there is no one symptom that has to be present for it to be Covid like a fever or lower oxygen saturation? (Pretty sure the answer is no as that is what the lab tech said, but my daughter said I was confusing and I forgot to ask the doctor...we were there for my daughter’s thyroid so thinking of other things).

I guess not. My husband was ill with loss of taste a couple months ago, also separated from us for his work abroad. He was ill for about a week, very similar to a nasty case of the flu, but only a mild case if it was Covid-19. He didn't get officially tested, however, since he was not distressed enough to be seen by a doctor.

Btw there were three doctors at the practice of our family doc in France. One died from Covid. There had been a mass infection at s church service of 1000 in a nearby city several weeks prior, which seems to have been an epicenter of that region.

 

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15 hours ago, Calm said:

So there is no one symptom that has to be present for it to be Covid like a fever or lower oxygen saturation? (Pretty sure the answer is no as that is what the lab tech said, but my daughter said I was confusing and I forgot to ask the doctor...we were there for my daughter’s thyroid so thinking of other things).

Right, there is no one symptom.  I am constantly surprised by how differently it manifests in different people in terms of symptoms, severity, and duration of symptoms.   The most common symptom (at least in Salt Lake County) is cough at 59% of cases.  Believe it or not, fever only shows up in 36% of cases. Here is a graph to show how common different symptoms are:

 https://slco.org/health/COVID-19/data/

Scroll down and find "1 of 9", then go to page 7 of 9 for the graph.  It won't let me copy and paste.  I know you were asking about zooming in on specific locations.  You can search by zip code with this site, but it is limited to Salt Lake County data unfortunately. 

Low oxygen saturation is much more serious and less common, and is reason for hospitalization. 

Hope that helps. 

 

Edited by pogi
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26 minutes ago, pogi said:

Right, there is no one symptom.  I am constantly surprised by how differently it manifests in different people in terms of symptoms, severity, and duration of symptoms.   The most common symptom (at least in Salt Lake County) is cough at 59% of cases.  Believe it or not, fever only shows up in 36% of cases. Here is a graph to show how common different symptoms are:

 https://slco.org/health/COVID-19/data/

Scroll down and find "1 of 9", then go to page 7 of 9 for the graph.  It won't let me copy and paste.  I know you were asking about zooming in on specific locations.  You can search by zip code with this site, but it is limited to Salt Lake County data unfortunately. 

Low oxygen saturation is much more serious and rare and is reason for hospitalization. 

Hope that helps. 

 

Very much so, thank you. Just sent it to siblings and kids. 

Edited by Calm

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Let’s see if a screenshot works. 

 

image.png

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