Tacenda Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 8 hours ago, sunstoned said: I agree. It seems the Old Testament scribes were a violent group. They were always having god killing people for silly reasons. In the story of Job, god makes a bet with the devil (really?) and end up murdering Jobs wife and children. The story of Noah's flood is really a sad tale. God basically commits genocide, killing everyone, including little children, and all the animals. In my opinion, the violence and murder in these types of stories far out weighs any lesson they try to convey. I'm ashamed when I was in a primary presidency and taught about Noah's flood in a sharing time. Link to comment
Jeanne Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 18 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I'm ashamed when I was in a primary presidency and taught about Noah's flood in a sharing time. I am more ashamed that as an adult, I believed it.😉 Link to comment
Teancum Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 14 hours ago, echelon said: I have yet to come to terms with God killing people just to teach someone else a lesson. (Uzzah, the Israelite soldiers Moses had to hold up his hands for, and Job's children as mentioned earlier, and maybe even the couple who didn't pay a full tithe) Without any more information I'm unable to differentiate an attempt by a superstitious group of people to explain what appears to be an accidental death from what should be a direct revelation from God explaining to David (if it was for his benefit) why it was done. But we don't have a record of that revelation and so as such, I can only take it as a story of an unfortunate event that happened with no purpose behind it. That is good. These are the first steps towards being a healthy skeptic. Link to comment
Teancum Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: "Murder" is the unlawful taking of human life. The Giver of Life may persumably take life when and how He sees fit, without it being murder. Hmm. I don't think so By that theory parents should be able to kill their children. Link to comment
Teancum Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: When I was a young man, I recall visiting a distant relative (Rev Frank Herron Smith) at Pilgrim Haven in Palo Alto. He was an old Methodist minister in his 90s, blind and with a broken hip, but he willingly conversed with me. Among other things, he told me how much he disliked the Old Testament, and loved the New. The God of the OT was not a nice God like Jesus, and the message of the OT was not a nice message. He and you would likely see eye to eye on some of that. Not too much longer after that, I attended his Methodist funeral in Berkeley. He was much loved, and it was well attended, particularly by the many ministers whom he had mentored. He was a good-hearted man, and very frank, but I don't think he really understood the nature of God or of the OT. Humans are by nature and nurture simply highly developed mammals -- for whom evil is their natural state. Because evil is banal and normal, not at all extraordinary. We like to look at others (including God) and to pass judgment. We imagine ourselves to be highly cultured and civilized beings incapable of genocide or evil, but we merely lie to ourselves, for such horrific behavior is in our genes and in our socialization. It takes very little, so little to bring out the worst in us. And then we blame God. That is because God and Gods are created in the image of humans by humans. 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, Teancum said: Hmm. I don't think so By that theory parents should be able to kill their children. I think LDS will have a hard time with unbelief in Bible stories, it will take some down a rabbit hole they don't want to go down. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 15 minutes ago, Teancum said: Hmm. I don't think so By that theory parents should be able to kill their children. For much of human history that was the prevailing belief. 1 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 29 minutes ago, Teancum said: That is because God and Gods are created in the image of humans by humans. That is certainly one of the most prominent theories. However, it is solipsistic and unverifiable. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 35 minutes ago, Teancum said: Hmm. I don't think so By that theory parents should be able to kill their children. Yes. Under Roman law, the pater familias had the right to kill any member of his family (or any of the slaves he owned) for any reason. Link to comment
Teancum Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 37 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: That is certainly one of the most prominent theories. However, it is solipsistic and unverifiable. Seem pretty obvious to me as well as more verifiable than any God man has created. 1 Link to comment
Teancum Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yes. Under Roman law, the pater familias had the right to kill any member of his family (or any of the slaves he owned) for any reason. Yes and? Fortunately we don't live under Roman law. I would hope any God would be more advanced on such things as this as well. So no, if there is a God and that God can whimsically kill that God is a murderer. The OT God was not only a murderer it was a maniacal murderer. Too bad thousands of years later many believe this is really the innerrent word of God rather than the myth it really is. 2 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 26 minutes ago, Teancum said: Yes and? Fortunately we don't live under Roman law. I would hope any God would be more advanced on such things as this as well. So no, if there is a God and that God can whimsically kill that God is a murderer. The OT God was not only a murderer it was a maniacal murderer. Too bad thousands of years later many believe this is really the innerrent word of God rather than the myth it really is. The Bible is to blame for abuse of women, and abuse of children as well, IMO. Remember "spare the rod, spoil the child"? Link to comment
bluebell Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 20 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The Bible is to blame for abuse of women, and abuse of children as well, IMO. Remember "spare the rod, spoil the child"? How do you explain atheist and pagan societies that still have abuse of women and children? 4 Link to comment
InCognitus Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 26 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The Bible is to blame for abuse of women, and abuse of children as well, IMO. Remember "spare the rod, spoil the child"? This thread is giving the phrase "Bible bashing" a whole new meaning (certainly different than from my missionary days). 3 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, bluebell said: How do you explain atheist and pagan societies that still have abuse of women and children? To start with, I should edit my comment to be IMO, and to say that people distort the Bible somewhat and use it as an excuse to abuse as well. Here is a youtube of Pres. Jimmy Carter's view about it. That has stuck with me for a long time. And that I hadn't considered, especially since I hate reading the OT. https://www.ted.com/talks/jimmy_carter_why_i_believe_the_mistreatment_of_women_is_the_number_one_human_rights_abuse/transcript?language=en Edited January 25, 2020 by Tacenda Link to comment
bluebell Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 17 minutes ago, Tacenda said: To start with, I should edit my comment to be IMO, and to say that people distort the Bible somewhat and use it as an excuse to abuse as well. Here is a youtube of Pres. Jimmy Carter's view about it. That has stuck with me for a long time. And that I hadn't considered, especially since I hate reading the OT. https://www.ted.com/talks/jimmy_carter_why_i_believe_the_mistreatment_of_women_is_the_number_one_human_rights_abuse/transcript?language=en I agree that people sometimes use the bible to justify evil behavior, but evil behavior doesn't exist because of the Bible. 4 Link to comment
pogi Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Teancum said: Hmm. I don't think so By that theory parents should be able to kill their children. The difference is that the Eternal Father is not blinded by our limited mortal perspective of “life”. Without an eternal perspective, we are not in a position to judge God. If he takes a life, how can you be certain he is not actually giving mercy - giving life beyond what we can understand? Also, if a judge, a limited and mostly blind mortal, can judge man and sentence him to death, is he a “murderer? If a mortal human judge is not guilty, how dare anyone accuse God, the great Eternal Judge, of being guilty of murder? Edited January 25, 2020 by pogi Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: The Bible is to blame for abuse of women, and abuse of children as well, IMO. Remember "spare the rod, spoil the child"? I can remember when it was normal to spank children. Even the children thought it was normal. The Bible is to blame for that? 1 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 3 hours ago, Teancum said: Seem pretty obvious to me as well as more verifiable than any God man has created. 3 hours ago, Teancum said: Yes and? Fortunately we don't live under Roman law. I would hope any God would be more advanced on such things as this as well. So no, if there is a God and that God can whimsically kill that God is a murderer. The OT God was not only a murderer it was a maniacal murderer. Too bad thousands of years later many believe this is really the innerrent word of God rather than the myth it really is. People do make assumptions, and that is their right. Even when their epistemology is subject to infinite regress. QED? Link to comment
Calm Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: The Bible is to blame for abuse of women, and abuse of children as well, IMO. Remember "spare the rod, spoil the child"? Do you know what the world was like around Israel and the Jews to see if the scriptures of the Bible actually improved the state of women, children, and slaves at that time? As well as have you compared treatment from the same time periods between first Jewish and then Jewish and Christian communities after the NT with countries that had no contact with those scriptures? Link to comment
sheilauk Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: The Bible is to blame for abuse of women, and abuse of children as well, IMO. Remember "spare the rod, spoil the child"? Have you heard of honour killings? Or sati/suttee? As Bluebell said, evil doesn't exist because of the bible. People will use any excuse to justify their behaviour including the bible/religion. 4 Link to comment
Thinking Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 23 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: "Murder" is the unlawful taking of human life. The Giver of Life may persumably take life when and how He sees fit, without it being murder. IMO "The Giver of Life" is sometimes given credit (or blame) for deaths because well...he can do whatever he sees fit because well...He is "The Giver of Life." Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 5 hours ago, Thinking said: IMO "The Giver of Life" is sometimes given credit (or blame) for deaths because well...he can do whatever he sees fit because well...He is "The Giver of Life." Yeh, and life on planet earth is typically "nasty, brutish and short" for most people. A privileged few lead lives of ease and relative safety, and have no idea what the real world is like. Makes it very easy to find fault with God, or with the harsh realities of nature. Wisdom would suggest a more realistic appraisal of human existence. Whining and blaming just doesn't get the serious job of survival done. Wuses never seem to understand that. 1 Link to comment
RevTestament Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 On 1/24/2020 at 9:11 PM, stemelbow said: I disagree. Then you would disagree with any God, because we are designed to die - God essentially takes all our lives with but a few exceptions. What is it to take it a little earlier if our purpose for being here is completed? Link to comment
stemelbow Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 16 hours ago, RevTestament said: Then you would disagree with any God, because we are designed to die - God essentially takes all our lives with but a few exceptions. What is it to take it a little earlier if our purpose for being here is completed? So if someone prays to God and feels from Him the answer best for everyone involved is aborting the fetus, then why is that your business? Ok, great, God essentially murders us all. Link to comment
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