'Steady the Ark' = Blind Obedience?

[BlueDreams]

On 1/24/2020 at 7:38 PM, The Nehor said:

I suspect a lot of Old Testament writers were dead wrong when they tried to attribute many events to God.

As written God in the Old Testament God is a jerk a lot of the time and throws his vengeance on secondary characters to punish the offender. Parents sin, the child dies. King sins, his people die. Job doesn't sin and most of his family dies because God and Satan made what amounts to a bar bet. If you want to see them as historical there is a way. The death of Uzzah does not speak to his eternal standing before God. Maybe he was spared any potential disobedience and was welcomed to glory. I think it was Skousen who theorized that Uzzah died not for a sin but for an object lesson and was blessed for it. Death is not always a punishment. It is an evil that should never have had to be but the atonement turns it into deliverance.

The Old Testament has even more creepy stuff. The Levite is travelling home with his runaway concubine and goes to stay in a house when a mob from the tribe of Benjamin decide to sodomize him. In parallel to the story of Lot he chivalrously gives them his concubine and the host gives up his daughter who is then raped all night and left her there at dawn. The Levite comes out and finds her dead. The Levite does the rational thing and chops her up and sends the pieces out to incite outrage and as a call for vengeance. When the tribe as a whole refuses to give up the criminals the tribe is all but wiped out with only 600 adult men surviving. Then the sequel where the rash oath that was made that no Israelite would marry into the tribe of Benjamin was grieved over because the extinction of a tribe would be be wrong. So they went with the logical solution and found an Israelite city where no one made the oath and massacred everyone there except the young women so they could claim them as wives. When there were not enough some women were sent out to dance with those involved collaborating with the rest of the unmarried men in the abduction. I do not expect that if this happens that God was impressed with their "cross their fingers behind their backs" rationalizing. I suspect the whole episode is a rationalization for an atrocity that some later writer wanted to give divine sanction. Also the writer of Judges seems to be for monarchies so it might have been spin to show that Israel before the kings was a colossal mess of lawlessness.

Is it wrong that that’s part of the reason I like the OT. It’s so amazingly messy. I like the BoM cuz it frames a lot of the mess back onto the people’s shoulders as opposed to attributing everything to God directly....and i do wonder what happened to parts of the text over millenia of transmission and translation. But at the same time I love that everybody is a mess, even most the “heroes“. That they’re people who screw up all the time, even while following god and often drastically. I mean if that’s the bar, we’ve all got a solid shot of making it

 

with luv,

BD 

Edited January 27, 2020 by BlueDreams

[Teancum]

On 1/25/2020 at 5:38 PM, pogi said:

The difference is that the Eternal Father is not blinded by our limited mortal perspective of “life”.  Without an eternal perspective, we are not in a position to judge God.  If he takes a life, how can you be certain he is not actually giving mercy - giving life beyond what we can understand?

Also, if a judge, a limited and mostly blind mortal, can judge man and sentence him to death, is he a “murderer?  If a mortal human judge is not guilty, how dare anyone accuse God, the great Eternal Judge, of being guilty of murder?

I understand your viewpoint and the difference in mine vs yours. This is one of those faith things and a reason I that I struggle with making such conclusions based on faith. 

As for the judge humans who we actually have evidence of their/our existence have as a society granted certain powers to judges as part of our judicial system.  So it is not murder, though personally I oppose capital punishment in most cases.

[katherine the great]

6 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

But at the same time I love that everybody is a mess, even most the “heroes“. 

Except for Nephi. He’s practically perfect in every way. 😊. 

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, stemelbow said:

So if someone prays to God and feels from Him the answer best for everyone involved is aborting the fetus, then why is that your business?

Ok, great, God essentially murders us all.  

Or maybe we agreed to be subject to death as a condition of coming here... in which case your protests against God killing us is moot. I'm not sure I understand your first point. Is that in the event that the mother decided to abort after freely exercising her right to copulate?

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Except for Nephi. He’s practically perfect in every way. 😊. 

And this is my struggle with Nephi!  

[katherine the great]

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

And this is my struggle with Nephi!  

Yah. He’s a wee bit full of himself. 🤫

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Except for Nephi. He’s practically perfect in every way. 😊. 

No, his flaw is there if you look. So is Jacob’s. This makes me respect them more.

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Or maybe we agreed to be subject to death as a condition of coming here... in which case your protests against God killing us is moot. I'm not sure I understand your first point. Is that in the event that the mother decided to abort after freely exercising her right to copulate?

Of course. A woman gets pregnant and then prays to God about whether to abort or not, and God says, "yep, do it.  It's best for all".  WHy is that your business?  It's Gods decision, right?  

[RevTestament]

35 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Of course. A woman gets pregnant and then prays to God about whether to abort or not, and God says, "yep, do it.  It's best for all".  WHy is that your business?  It's Gods decision, right?  

You seem to be ignoring the distinctions. No, if she copulated as a choice, even if she didn't really wish to get pregnant, then she incurs the responsibilities of making that choice unless unforeseen health circumstances arise, etc. If she doesn't want the child, put it up for adoption. There are many who want children.... If you are trying to get me to agree that God will approve of abortion used merely for contraceptive reasons, I think the answer will always be no - at least not in the third trimester when there is a child with brain waves in there. I don't believe He will ever approve of it. He wishes people to learn to use their powers of procreation responsibly - even as He does. He doesn't want to hear - "but, babies are expensive;" "if I have this child, I won't be able to travel around the world...;" etc. People these days have the one day pill, and all other types of contraception. The late term abortion industry is the result of irresponsibility. And the Church does not approve, and should not condone it. 

[stemelbow]

10 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

You seem to be ignoring the distinctions. No, if she copulated as a choice, even if she didn't really wish to get pregnant, then she incurs the responsibilities of making that choice unless unforeseen health circumstances arise, etc. If she doesn't want the child, put it up for adoption. There are many who want children.... If you are trying to get me to agree that God will approve of abortion used merely for contraceptive reasons, I think the answer will always be no - at least not in the third trimester when there is a child with brain waves in there. I don't believe He will ever approve of it. He wishes people to learn to use their powers of procreation responsibly - even as He does. He doesn't want to hear - "but, babies are expensive;" "if I have this child, I won't be able to travel around the world...;" etc. People these days have the one day pill, and all other types of contraception. The late term abortion industry is the result of irresponsibility. And the Church does not approve, and should not condone it. 

I see, so God is really just limited to what you imagine.  God won't approve of abortions ever because that would be absurd.  But the problem is, of course, there are far more abortions that happen without human intervention at all.  And God is the maker who designs and makes those abortions happen.   If as you imagine, women should not choose to copulate and then get pregnant if she does not intend to have a child, then it's her problem.  But as it is you have no idea if God would inspire her to get the fetus aborted.  You only assume you know God, it seems.  It's actually quite a pickle you are in, it seems to me.  

[RevTestament]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I see, so God is really just limited to what you imagine.  God won't approve of abortions ever because that would be absurd.  But the problem is, of course, there are far more abortions that happen without human intervention at all.  And God is the maker who designs and makes those abortions happen.   If as you imagine, women should not choose to copulate and then get pregnant if she does not intend to have a child, then it's her problem.  But as it is you have no idea if God would inspire her to get the fetus aborted.  You only assume you know God, it seems.  It's actually quite a pickle you are in, it seems to me.  

You don't see at all, and feel free to absurdly change what I said. You feel free to absurdly twist what I said to match your leftist agenda. I'm done with you.

[smac97]

21 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Except for Nephi. He’s practically perfect in every way. 😊. 

Well, we know that Nephi's soul grieved "because of {his} iniquities," that he was "encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset {him}," that "heart groaneth because of my sins," that his soul "droop{ed} in sin," and so on (2 Nephi 4).

So he was a good guy, but a human one.

Now Captain Moroni, on the other hand.  Mormon lionized the guy in Alma 48:

Quote

11 And Moroni was a strong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect understanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country, and his brethren from bondage and slavery;
12 Yea, a man whose heart did swell with thanksgiving to his God, for the many privileges and blessings which he bestowed upon his people; a man who did labor exceedingly for the welfare and safety of his people.|
13 Yea, and he was a man who was firm in the faith of Christ, and he had sworn with an oath to defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion, even to the loss of his blood.
...
16 ...this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.
17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 28, 2020 by smac97

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Well, we know that Nephi's soul grieved "because of {his} iniquities," that he was "encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset {him}," that "heart groaneth because of my sins," that his soul "droop{ed} in sin," and so on (2 Nephi 4).

So he was a good guy, but a human one.

Now Captain Moroni, on the other hand.  Mormon lionized the guy in Alma 48:

Thanks,

-Smac

Yet Captain Moroni decided he wanted to conduct a prisoner exchange on terms generous to his side. He wrote to the enemy and got everything he wanted but was so undiplomatic that the whole degenerated into the epistolary equivalent of an Internet slap fight and name calling exchange. His anger yanked the whole deal. Great leader, lousy diplomat due to temper. If he was on these boards he would probably make me look like a mild mannered saint.  

[stemelbow]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

You don't see at all, and feel free to absurdly change what I said. You feel free to absurdly twist what I said to match your leftist agenda. I'm done with you.

My apologies, RevTestament.  I certainly meant no offense.  I'm also quite open to correction.