Infallibility of Patriarchal Blessings

[CV75]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Not me, that's all I know for sure.  I heard what he said, and I read the hard copy when it was mailed to me a while later.

Just another example of the ongoing battle between free will and determinism. Authoritarianism and unfettered liberty.  If I ever find out, it'll probably settle the grand debate, so I think I'm happy not knowing.

I ask because the patriarch will often edit the transcription himself. Self-correcting fallibility! Joseph Smith did the same thing with his translations and inspired writings. The Spirit helps us sort through it all; the buck stops on the "fleshy tables of the heart."

[CV75]

ooops got my threads mixed up

Edited January 1, 2020 by CV75

[Vellichor]

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

I know but aren't we told that the Gospel is the only way to be happy and the Church is the only way to get exaltation and the sooner the better and people outside the Church "they aren't really happy"

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1987/10/they-re-not-really-happy?lang=eng

We do emphasize happiness in the Church quite a lot, but I don't believe the ultimate purpose of mortality is to feel certain feelings. "Men [and women] are, that they might have joy," but I believe that is in reference to the eternities. Our earthly experiences help prepare us for that joy. Certainly we can get glimpses of it here, but life is really hard for a lot of folks. The ultimate purpose of mortality isn't to be happy; it's to become more like Christ, which encompasses learning and progressing and figuring out how to love others better. It's to live a life of purpose and meaning. 

 

[Vellichor]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

why get a PB in this life when God knows that the promises will be fulfilled in the next, to me that's a carrot on a string

I hear you. Married people often like to remind us singles about the next life, but I think it makes THEM feel better rather than us. We singles rarely tell each other this. It's great that we know that everything will be awesome in the next life and that we can live in God's presence and be reunited with those we love. Beyond that, specific promises don't feel very meaningful. 

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, Vellichor said:

The ultimate purpose of mortality isn't to be happy; it's to become more like Christ, which encompasses learning and progressing and figuring out how to love others better. It's to live a life of purpose and meaning. 

Which circles around back to happiness.

A life void of love, purpose, and meaning is a life void of happiness.  Joy is how you know that love, purpose, and meaning are good and worthy principles to live by.  You say that we should learn to be more like Christ.  I agree - Christ was happy, even in suffering.  Christ was happy because he loved fully, and sacrificed for love, purpose, and meaning. 

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Vellichor said:

Beyond that, specific promises don't feel very meaningful. 

Why is that true for you?  Do you not believe the promises or care about them?  Why are they only meaningful if they come true in mortality?  That seems like such a narrow perspective to me.  Life is more than mortality!  Mortality is a tiny sliver of our eternal life, why do we obsess about it to the apathetic neglect of what lies ahead? That to me is like saying, “I don’t find meaning in the details of tomorrow, I only care about today. Maybe you don’t find hope and meaning in specific eternal blessings.  But I sure do, and I am not alone.

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, pogi said:

Which circles around back to happiness.

A life void of love, purpose, and meaning is a life void of happiness.  Joy is how you know that love, purpose, and meaning are good and worthy principles to live by.  You say that we should learn to be more like Christ.  I agree - Christ was happy, even in suffering.  Christ was happy because he loved fully, and sacrificed for love, purpose, and meaning. 

A life can be full of love, meaning, and purpose, but not be happy through no fault of that person.

Happiness is a feeling we don't always have control over, such as those who experience chronic depression.  It is not a sin to not be happy.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

the members were saying that, as if they were these chosen ones, specially selected among the heathen horde👺

 

she lived here at the time

People are weird...good ways and bad ways.

[ERMD]

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't believe it is strictly spiritual. I believe I am a literal descendant of Ephraim, for example.

Certainly there is a spiritual component as to promised blessings and responsibilities attendant to the particular tribe. But what you seem to be suggesting is that it is figurative as pertaining to mortality. I don't go along with that.

 

I didn't mean strictly spiritual.  We are all genetic mongrels, so many can be literal descendants of the tribe of our declared lineage.

I think Paul's writings in Romans 8 and 9 discussing with predestination deal with this.  We were foreordained/predestined to our lineage, and it is that lineage the patriarch is revealing.  If that is the case, then patriarchs are being shown a glimpse of what we were in the premortal realm.  I find the thought fascinating.

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

A life can be full of love, meaning, and purpose, but not be happy through no fault of that person.

Happiness is a feeling we don't always have control over, such as those who experience chronic depression.  It is not a sin to not be happy.

I disagree that a person with severe mental illness, to the point where they can’t feel any happiness (extremely rare and mostly acute condition) are “full of love, purpose, and meaning.”  Mental illness effects all areas of life, to the point where they have lost purpose, meaning, and motivation to love others as they should.  That is no excuse to not try and find treatment and be fulfilled in love, purpose, and meaning, and thus happiness.  That is the ultimate purpose that we should all seek in this life, and not just eternity. 

Edited January 1, 2020 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, ERMD said:

I didn't mean strictly spiritual.  We are all genetic mongrels, so many can be literal descendants of the tribe of our declared lineage.

I think Paul's writings in Romans 8 and 9 discussing with predestination deal with this.  We were foreordained/predestined to our lineage, and it is that lineage the patriarch is revealing.  If that is the case, then patriarchs are being shown a glimpse of what we were in the premortal realm.  I find the thought fascinating.

There is no doubt that God “determined the bounds of our habitation” prior to our mortality and that, as Joseph Smith taught, all who have a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the earth were foreordained to that role. 
 

Incidentally, I believe that not just “many,” but almost all of us are literal descendants in our declared tribal lineages, this because of the geometric nature of descendancy, the everyone-is-descended-from-Charlamange mathematical phenomenon. While I believe the concept of adoption into the blood of Israel to be true doctrine, my hunch is that it is almost never necessary these days. 

[Duncan]

11 hours ago, Vellichor said:

I hear you. Married people often like to remind us singles about the next life, but I think it makes THEM feel better rather than us. We singles rarely tell each other this. It's great that we know that everything will be awesome in the next life and that we can live in God's presence and be reunited with those we love. Beyond that, specific promises don't feel very meaningful. 

single too,  hear ya!

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, Duncan said:

single too,  hear ya!

Sorry if this changes the subject, just wondered if you and Vellichor have looked into meetups? My brother in law who is divorced does things weekly with a group of singles, I don't believe they're affiliated with the church, but many are LDS. I am envious of all they do, haha!

Edited January 1, 2020 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry if this changes the subject, just wondered if you and Vellichor have looked into meetups? My brother in law who is divorced does things weekly with a group of singles, I don't believe they're affiliated with the church, but many are LDS. I am envious of all they do, haha!

meetups?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

disagree that a person with severe mental illness, to the point where they can’t feel any happiness

That is not the state I meant.  I mean more someone who wouldn't describe themselves as generally happy.

There were two 'paragraphs' in my post meant to identify two separate ideas....that one can have loved meaning, and purpose in one's life without viewing one's life in terms of what others label happiness, the second was we don't always have control over how we feel and therefore not being happy shouldn't be viewed as an identifier of one is sinful (that is not an additional burden nonhappy people need to bear).

Chronic depression is merely one example of something that might interfere with experiencing happiness. 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Incidentally, I believe that not just “many,” but almost all of us are literal descendants in our declared tribal lineages, this because of the geometric nature of descendancy, the everyone-is-descended-from-Charlamange mathematical phenomenon. While I believe the concept of adoption into the blood of Israel to be true doctrine, my hunch is that it is almost never necessary these days. 

If everyone is a lieteral descendant of any tribe (I agree with this as most probable), what determines what lineage out of the 12 an individual is blessed with in your view?

Edited January 1, 2020 by Calm

[theplains]

On 12/31/2019 at 12:33 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s not that we are “assigned a tribe,” as such. We already have the tribal lineage, through blood or adoption, and it is the role of the patriarch to declare that tribal lineage. 

What do you make of the teaching in the Religion 430-431 manual?

"The great majority of those who have come into the Church are Ephraimites. It is the exception to find
one of any other tribe, unless it is of Manasseh."

Thanks,
Jim

[InCognitus]

8 minutes ago, theplains said:

What do you make of the teaching in the Religion 430-431 manual?

"The great majority of those who have come into the Church are Ephraimites. It is the exception to find
one of any other tribe, unless it is of Manasseh."

Thanks,
Jim

It's a true statement that the "majority" are from Ephraim (and for a good reason).  But all the tribes have been included.  Sister Nelson talked about how she observed representatives from all of the twelve tribes of Israel in a group of women she spoke to in Moscow (she asked them to stand in a roll call by tribe, based on the lineage declared in their patriarchal blessing). Transcript here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/worldwide-devotional-for-young-adults/2018/06/hope-of-israel?lang=eng

[Tacenda]

 

59 minutes ago, Duncan said:

meetups?

Shoot, I just checked, I don't believe you have them in Canada. But not sure, I tried to find a link. It's called Meetup.com in the US, you could google it and check out what I'm talking about. There is something for everyone, basically. My BIL goes to one that is mainly outdoors and hike nearly every weekend, go to things during the week, mostly a singles group. He's 57 and I think this group has saved his life as far as staying busy and meeting many new friends. He's dated a few, but can't find the one yet I guess. But his friendships with women have been awesome on their adventures. They hike in the winter and sled down, hike in the warmer weather and repel down. But also get together for other things as well. He's 57, and has been single for quite a while. He has sons and is close with most of them, his ex kind of turned the younger ones against him. And she's the one that had the affair.  He's very active LDS as well. But he finds it difficult to be single in the church.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Tacenda

[theplains]

8 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

It's a true statement that the "majority" are from Ephraim (and for a good reason).  But all the tribes have been included.  Sister Nelson talked about how she observed representatives from all of the twelve tribes of Israel in a group of women she spoke to in Moscow (she asked them to stand in a roll call by tribe, based on the lineage declared in their patriarchal blessing). Transcript here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/worldwide-devotional-for-young-adults/2018/06/hope-of-israel?lang=eng

This part refers to a physical lineage.

"Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most 
likely be turned to the Lord. He said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they 
follow me.”  Those who are of the house of Israel will most easily recognize the Lord 
Jesus Christ as their Savior and will desire to be gathered into His fold. They will want 
to become members of His Church, make covenants with Him and Heavenly Father, and receive 
their essential ordinances."

What about a physical descendant of Jacob makes him or her more receptive to the gospel
than someone who is not a literal descendant?

Who in the Book of Mormon received a patriarchal blessing?

Thanks,
Jim

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

If everyone is a lieteral descendant of any tribe (I agree with this as most probable), what determines what lineage out of the 12 an individual is blessed with in your view?

I once heard James E. Faust explain it by comparing having more than one lineage with one of them being the declared one to having genetic traits, with some being dominant in an individual and others recessive. I suppose it is God who determines which is which. 
 

With most Church members in this dispensation being of the tribe of Ephraim, and with that tribe having the duty to carry the gospel throughout the earth in latter days and thus prepare for the Second Coming of Christ, that makes sense to me. 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

What do you make of the teaching in the Religion 430-431 manual?

"The great majority of those who have come into the Church are Ephraimites. It is the exception to find
one of any other tribe, unless it is of Manasseh."

Thanks,
Jim

I accept it as true with the caveat that in these latter days, one is apt to have traces of any or all of the tribal lineages, with one particular lineage, usually Ephraim, being dominant with respect to divine blessings and responsibilities in carrying forward the work of the Lord. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

This part refers to a physical lineage.

"Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most 
likely be turned to the Lord. He said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they 
follow me.”  Those who are of the house of Israel will most easily recognize the Lord 
Jesus Christ as their Savior and will desire to be gathered into His fold. They will want 
to become members of His Church, make covenants with Him and Heavenly Father, and receive 
their essential ordinances."

What about a physical descendant of Jacob makes him or her more receptive to the gospel
than someone who is not a literal descendant?

Who in the Book of Mormon received a patriarchal blessing?

Thanks,
Jim

In my view, foreordination is apt to make one more receptive. 
 

Since there were patriarchs under the law of Moses, it seems axiomatic to me that there would be patriarchal blessings. 
 

But it was also common to have genealogical records. From the brass plates, Lehi knew he was a descendant of Joseph who was sold into Egypt; ergo, anyone descended from Lehi would have that ancestry as well. 

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

This part refers to a physical lineage.

"Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most 
likely be turned to the Lord. He said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they 
follow me.”  Those who are of the house of Israel will most easily recognize the Lord 
Jesus Christ as their Savior and will desire to be gathered into His fold. They will want 
to become members of His Church, make covenants with Him and Heavenly Father, and receive 
their essential ordinances."

What about a physical descendant of Jacob makes him or her more receptive to the gospel
than someone who is not a literal descendant?

President Nelson quoted John 10:27, where Jesus says that his "sheep" hear his voice.  Elsewhere Jesus described them as "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Mat 10:6 and Mat 15:24).  The Gentiles were later included in that message through the preaching of the apostles (not by Jesus personally), but the Bible is full of promises about the literal gathering of Israel, and how the Gentiles are instrumental in that process.  For example:

Quote

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.  11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.  12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.  13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.  14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.  (Isaiah 11:10–14)

And this passage points out that one of the reasons they respond to the message is because they will begin to remember his teachings and promises:

Quote

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,  2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;  3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.  4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:  5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.  (Deuteronomy 30:1–5)

 

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Who in the Book of Mormon received a patriarchal blessing?

I don't recall any specific instances in the Book of Mormon where we are told about such blessing, but Lehi's exhortation to his sons in 2 Nephi 1 comes close to that.

 

[Vellichor]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

Which circles around back to happiness.

A life void of love, purpose, and meaning is a life void of happiness.  Joy is how you know that love, purpose, and meaning are good and worthy principles to live by.  You say that we should learn to be more like Christ.  I agree - Christ was happy, even in suffering.  Christ was happy because he loved fully, and sacrificed for love, purpose, and meaning. 

As Calm said, a life of love, purpose, and meaning does not automatically mean that one feels happy. Abraham Lincoln was known for being melancholy. George Albert Smith struggled greatly with his emotional health and wasn't happy much of the time. What is the scriptural support for Christ feeling happy in his suffering? Obviously his suffering was drenched with meaning and purpose, but he was described as "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief," not as a man of happiness. Meaning and happiness are not the same thing, at least in this life.