Infallibility of Patriarchal Blessings

[Vellichor]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

Why is that true for you?  Do you not believe the promises or care about them?  Why are they only meaningful if they come true in mortality?  That seems like such a narrow perspective to me.  Life is more than mortality!  Mortality is a tiny sliver of our eternal life, why do we obsess about it to the apathetic neglect of what lies ahead? That to me is like saying, “I don’t find meaning in the details of tomorrow, I only care about today. Maybe you don’t find hope and meaning in specific eternal blessings.  But I sure do, and I am not alone.

Of course life is more than mortality. Of course knowing about eternity gives hope. But we still have to deal with living here right now. That doesn't mean we have to "obsess about it to the apathetic neglect of what lies ahead." Sheesh, what a black & white, overdramatic interpretation of what I said. We have to have a healthy balance - if we put too much emphasis on the next life, we just want to get there sooner. Would you ever tell someone who has just become paralyzed,  "Don't worry; you'll be able to walk in the next life?" Or would you tell a homeless person, "It's OK, you'll have a mansion in the next life?" Of course not. That guy has to figure out where to sleep TODAY. We can all be immeasurably grateful to know about eternity and that all our losses are only temporary. But that does not erase those losses and the real grief that accompanies them. I'm glad I won't be alone in the eternities, but that doesn't diminish the fact that I have no family now. And the promise that I'll have a whole bunch of kids after I'm dead is simply not that helpful currently.

[The Nehor]

On 12/31/2019 at 12:43 PM, MustardSeed said:

A single man my husband home taught was promised marriage in THIS life.  He died single, last year, at 76. 

This may be my path but I can think of many reasons the blessings have not come to pass.

[The Nehor]

On 12/31/2019 at 1:00 PM, JAHS said:

OK, now I want to go find it and read it again. 🙂 

You can now link it to your LDS account making it easy to access electronically.

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, Vellichor said:

I hear you. Married people often like to remind us singles about the next life, but I think it makes THEM feel better rather than us. We singles rarely tell each other this. It's great that we know that everything will be awesome in the next life and that we can live in God's presence and be reunited with those we love. Beyond that, specific promises don't feel very meaningful. 

This.

I have a friend who envies my single state and how free I am. He is very deluded as to how great it is. I had another friend lose a child and in her grief verbally envied me for never having to endure that loss while I envied her having the child even with the loss. She has a hope of seeing that child again and all being made right. I have a hope of a family I do not know which is a nebulous and illusory thing that it is hard to put much stock in. 

[Vellichor]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry if this changes the subject, just wondered if you and Vellichor have looked into meetups? My brother in law who is divorced does things weekly with a group of singles, I don't believe they're affiliated with the church, but many are LDS. I am envious of all they do, haha!

I've thought about that and might try it at some point. 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This.

I have a friend who envies my single state and how free I am. He is very deluded as to how great it is. I had another friend lose a child and in her grief verbally envied me for never having to endure that loss while I envied her having the child even with the loss. She has a hope of seeing that child again and all being made right. I have a hope of a family I do not know which is a nebulous and illusory thing that it is hard to put much stock in. 

The grass is always greener on the other side definitely seems to apply to trials as much as blessings.  

[Vellichor]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This.

I have a friend who envies my single state and how free I am. He is very deluded as to how great it is. I had another friend lose a child and in her grief verbally envied me for never having to endure that loss while I envied her having the child even with the loss. She has a hope of seeing that child again and all being made right. I have a hope of a family I do not know which is a nebulous and illusory thing that it is hard to put much stock in. 

"Nebulous and illusory." So well said.

 

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This.

I have a friend who envies my single state and how free I am. He is very deluded as to how great it is. I had another friend lose a child and in her grief verbally envied me for never having to endure that loss while I envied her having the child even with the loss. She has a hope of seeing that child again and all being made right. I have a hope of a family I do not know which is a nebulous and illusory thing that it is hard to put much stock in. 

I’m not single any longer but i’ve noticed that those who say some of this stuff often had very short periods of times being single as an adult or rockier marriages (or both). I still remember making my plan b’s and having this split vision of my future. One that was okay but was really more of the same and entailed deciding on a family ward as a single woman or  in a mid-singles as i was aging out, deciding if i really wanted to deal with the long chain of roommates and a never-ending list of people i had to live with or cough up cash I didn’t really have and overwork myself for a cheap place...you know freedom 🙄. Or the vague hope of marriage that came with the wonders of app dating. There are states worse than being single. Like being in a really crappy marriage. I’d literally choose just about any state other than that.

 

with luv, 

BD

Edited January 2, 2020 by BlueDreams

[BlueDreams]

On 12/30/2019 at 7:47 PM, MiserereNobis said:

This, to me, is a much more interesting area of discussion than whether or not the prophet is infallible. This a situation where an individual is getting specific words from someone that is supposed to be speaking for God. This seems, if I'm understanding it correctly, like a personal revelation (if I'm using the LDS terms accurately) given to one person by another person.

I’ve been thinking about this a bit as i’ve had an experience of strong personal revelation being fulfilled fairly recently. That it has become more apparent each day. The greater gist of it was fulfilled but i can still see how some of my personal hopes and desires at the time got in the way of fully interpreting the experience correctly. I think that’s part of the problem most people run into with whatever form of personal revelation we receive...get our own selves and expectations enough out of the way to get what God is telling us. ...and it still will likely be filtered by our own means of talking and expressing things. Which is likely Why nothing is considered infallible in the LDS faith. 

technically patriarchal blessings are not the only blessing where we could receive personal revelation from another person. That can come from other blessings as well. The difference is usually in the purpose of said blessing (others are usually more time-limited whereas Pb’s are usually considered to share parts of your eternal purpose. 

Personally my patriarchal blessing has been a big spritual strength for me. It’s often grown and changed with me in significance at varying points in my life.  But i get for others that may not be as much the case. My husband’s for example feels pretty generic. I don’t think this makes mine more right or infallible, IMHO

 

random thoughts while getting a kid to slerep  

with luv,

BD

[Scott Lloyd]

I was much further along in life than most people typically are before I gained the longed-for blessing of a marriage and children. It has been long ago now, but I still have a clear memory of resenting the suggestion that being single is a cake walk compared to the trials and challenges of married life. And, as a corollary, I never much liked it when anyone, married or single, stated or implied that single women in the Church are more deserving of sympathy than single men because the latter supposedly have control over their circumstances while the former do not. Everyone has his or her own difficulties and challenges to contend with, and blanket, categorical judgments are seldom, if ever, appropriate or helpful. 
 

All that being said, while I was single, I put great stock and faith in frequently expressed statements that no meaningful blessing from God will, in the long run, be withheld from a son or daughter of God who remains true and faithful. I never viewed those assurances as being nebulous and illusory. On the contrary, they, combined with certain assurances in my patriarchal blessing, were a lifeline to me, one that got me through a period of darkness and depression bordering on despair. 

[CV75]

11 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Like being in a really crappy marriage. I’d literally choose just about any state other than that.

My Pollyanna Moment for the Day: being in a really crappy marriage is as good an opportunity to become Christlike as any other state (recognizing there are situations where divorce is justified, just as remaining single is justified) ...that's what I would hope people who are in them could realize, anyway!

[MustardSeed]

On 12/31/2019 at 11:40 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Regarding the first incident, anecdotes involving unknown persons have limited usefulness, because they are impossible either to verify or to falsify. Did the man in the story have reasonable opportunities to marry that he chose to reject? Did he exercise faith sufficient for the blessing to be fulfilled? We can’t know, because we are unacquainted with the man or his circumstances. 
 

The second story is not about patriarchal blessings but about a priesthood blessing of healing. Elder (now President) Dallin H. Oaks has provided some insight on the topic, pertinent to the matter you bring up,  in this talk:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2010/04/healing-the-sick?lang=eng

 

 

I think I do a reasonably good job expressing that most every last post of mine is sharing my opinions and not sharing global truths.  

That’s fine that you don’t think my anecdotal experience has any worth- it does to me and I will share what I share for the mere purpose of participating in something meaningful to me.  My anecdotal experience has shaped my faith. 

And for the record I’m well aware that a healing blessing is not a PB.  Smh? The core of this thread is fallibility IMO.  My faith is stronger BECAUSE I allow for humanness. Do you want to challenge my faith? I don’t try to shake yours. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This may be my path but I can think of many reasons the blessings have not come to pass.

I wonder for my friend, who lived so long, why he was promised this specifically.  Edit to say: no need to read this as a faithless question.  I literally wonder why a man would promise such a thing. A patriarch is not a fortune teller. This is not the purpose of a pb imo. 

He had been burned over 85% of his body in a fire at age 6.  The promise was a specific one that kept him going every day.  Sweetest man... of course I suppose I can fall back on guessing that maybe he was withheld blessings for his sins.  I prefer to think perhaps he was promised something by a compassionate loving human and that he himself was as human as I,  who have been married for 30 years now and quite the sinner. 

Sometimes, life just happens and IMO we just are expected to do our best in spite of it all. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

del

Edited January 2, 2020 by MustardSeed

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I wonder for my friend, who lived so long, why he was promised this specifically.  Edit to say: no need to read this as a faithless question.  I literally wonder why a man would promise such a thing. A patriarch is not a fortune teller. This is not the purpose of a pb imo. 

He had been burned over 85% of his body in a fire at age 6.  The promise was a specific one that kept him going every day.  Sweetest man... of course I suppose I can fall back on guessing that maybe he was withheld blessings for his sins.  I prefer to think perhaps he was promised something by a compassionate loving human and that he himself was as human as I,  who have been married for 30 years now and quite the sinner. 

Sometimes, life just happens and IMO we just are expected to do our best in spite of it all. 

I would wager my sins exceed his but I thank you for the sentiment.

[PacMan]

On 12/31/2019 at 9:19 AM, MiserereNobis said:

While this may be true (from the LDS viewpoint), it really doesn't address my questions. What if in the blessing the patriarch says, "God will bless you with x, y, and z" and in fact that is not God's will, but just the patriarch speaking as a human, thinking he is speaking for God. That's not missing a blessing, that's the "blessing" being a mistake from the beginning.

If someone is acting with the Lord’s authority, He will recognize the blessing. What that means is that if the person giving the blessing makes a mistake, the Lord will honor it either in word or substance. The recipient will not lack for that blessing...perhaps through it’s equivalent. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by PacMan

[MustardSeed]

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I would wager my sins exceed his but I thank you for the sentiment.

Well I suppose we will hang out Down under since I have failed as well. 

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I wonder for my friend, who lived so long, why he was promised this specifically.  Edit to say: no need to read this as a faithless question.  I literally wonder why a man would promise such a thing. A patriarch is not a fortune teller. This is not the purpose of a pb imo. 

He had been burned over 85% of his body in a fire at age 6.  The promise was a specific one that kept him going every day.  Sweetest man... of course I suppose I can fall back on guessing that maybe he was withheld blessings for his sins.  I prefer to think perhaps he was promised something by a compassionate loving human and that he himself was as human as I,  who have been married for 30 years now and quite the sinner. 

Sometimes, life just happens and IMO we just are expected to do our best in spite of it all. 

I somewhat wonder if the answer to why us tied to the bold there. Of course it could also be the wishful aspirations of a Patriarch, but it could also have been something to keep him going and moving forward and not fall into despair. I obviously haven’t experienced something like that, but I had several specific experiences and blessings and such that kept me hoping for a marriage to a man that i’m so glad i never married (read this as over several years). I learned so much from the experience, but i would be lying if i said i would have gone down that course if I thought he wasn’t the one i’d end up with....at least at first. 
But then again, i’m all for a very messy God experience. 
 

With luv, 

BD 

[The Nehor]

34 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Well I suppose we will hang out Down under since I have failed as well. 

Want to launch a coup and take over?

[bluebell]

40 minutes ago, PacMan said:

If someone is acting with the Lord’s authority, He will recognize the blessing. What that means is that if the person giving the blessing makes a mistake, the Lord will honor it either in word or substance. The recipient will not lack for that blessing...perhaps through it’s equivalent. 

I've always believed this as well.  

[PacMan]

May I also make an observation - I don’t think it takes a “sin” to miss out on a blessing. A small distraction can change our life-course. I wonder about that in my own life. But I do believe the atonement of Christ is big enough to compensate. While a life perfectly and attentively lived could have taken me on a different road, I’m comfortable believing that the path I’m on, albeit perhaps a different road, is just as far along towards the goal of where I need to be. 

[MustardSeed]

I don’t believe God withholds.  I simply believe life happens and we are judged according to how we behave. 

Life is wayyy too messy for me to believe otherwise.  I’d be exhausted trying to figure it all out. 

I think a patriarchal blessing is a fairly generic reminder of who we are eternally.  Not much more. 

This is, of course, my opinion. 

[BlueDreams]

8 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t believe God withholds.  I simply believe life happens and we are judged according to how we behave. 

Life is wayyy too messy for me to believe otherwise.  I’d be exhausted trying to figure it all out. 

I think a patriarchal blessing is a fairly generic reminder of who we are eternally.  Not much more. 

This is, of course, my opinion. 

For my husband that would fit okay. For me it would definitely not. Mine is far more specific and detailed than what could be described a generic reminder. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

[MustardSeed]

20 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

For my husband that would fit okay. For me it would definitely not. Mine is far more specific and detailed than what could be described a generic reminder. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

Mine is pretty detailed as well-  and so very long.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 12/30/2019 at 7:47 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Hello LDS friends,

The issue of LDS leadership, particularly the apostles and prophet, being fallible has often come up on the board. It is usually in the context of a (perceived) mistake made. Some point to the mistake as evidence of leadership not being what they claim, while others point out that leadership is not infallible so mistakes are to be expected.

I was lately doing some quick reading about patriarchal blessings and the issue of fallibility crossed my mind. If I understand correctly, a patriarchal blessing is given once in a person's life, is transcribed verbatim, and the person is supposed to study the blessing for their (yes Scott, I'm using a plural pronoun to refer to a singular antecedent ) entire life to learn God's will for them. This sounds like the blessing is infallibility proclaiming what God wants, since, unless I'm mistaken, there is no option for a redo or a clarification or a disavowal or an explanation, as there is when leadership, including the prophet, makes pronouncements.

What if the patriarch is just speaking as a person and not as God's mouthpiece? Who would know? Does one get a testimony of the infallibility of one's blessing? Or of one's specific patriarch giving the blessing? Are there instances of a clearly wrong patriarchal blessing? Does anyone double-check that the patriarch is actually doing what they are supposed to be doing?

This, to me, is a much more interesting area of discussion than whether or not the prophet is infallible. This a situation where an individual is getting specific words from someone that is supposed to be speaking for God. This seems, if I'm understanding it correctly, like a personal revelation (if I'm using the LDS terms accurately) given to one person by another person.

If a patriarch is wrong, then we have people studying a man's fallible words for their entire life to figure out things about themselves and God. This seems highly problematic.

I also read that the person receiving the blessing is told which tribe of Israel they belong in. Is this also infallible or could the patriarch be mistaken? (and what is the exact reason for being told a specific tribe... does it make any difference?)

Thanks for your thoughts and discussion. And may you continue to have a merry Christmas season!

+ PAX +

For a less faithful view, patriarchal blessings frequently come up on exmormon reddit as one of the testimony shattering events in their lives. One recent example:

Quote

My patriarchal blessing tells me I have the gift of healing and to call people back from the doors of death, unless they are appointed unto death. I got that when I was 15 and didn't know what to do with that. Fast forward to when I was 28 and my wife has a sudden brain hemorrhage during childbirth and goes in to a coma. Test after test showed declining brain function. Oh, that blessing was for this! I fasted. Gave her a blessing and used the words: "I call you back from the doors of death." Two days later made the decision to withdraw life support after doctors declared her brain dead. In addition to the grief of her loss, confusion about being a single parent all of the sudden etc I had to deal with what the hell happened. It was shattering and the major reason I lost my belief in god and [the church].

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by SeekingUnderstanding