Infallibility of Patriarchal Blessings

[Robert F. Smith]

47 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Since we all sin, unless we are perfect in our use of the atonement, a single sin makes us unworthy.  That’s a pretty safe caveat for the patriarch.

Of course everyone sins, but Jesus' self-sacrifice covers that, and you miss the point.  God doesn't expect perfection in us.  Merely sincerity and love.  If we reach up, He'll meet us halfway.  No patriarch has any caveat except that every blessing is conditional.  How far into evil will we be allowed to go before God reacts harshly with corrective action?  The Jews sinned (as the rabbis tell us) and were forced into Exile for 2,000 years.  They understood their punishment all too well, and they ruminated on it constantly, begging forgiveness and a return to a former blessed state -- as foretold by the prophets.  St Paul told us that they were never forgotten, and that they would indeed be forgiven and come into their own again (Rom 11).  Joseph Smith has said the same.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

almost none of this has happened and I dunno, can't happen now, so maybe God doesn't think i'm faithful enough, am I fooling myself for trying to be faithful? I am active in the Church, serve, pay tithing, attend the Temple but yet.........I dunno

I don't know what you are speaking of specifically, and this may not help in your particular case, but it has been said that patriarchal blessings are eternal.  Perhaps an eternal perspective might help.

Quote

Similarly, the recipient of the blessing should not assume that everything mentioned in it will be fulfilled in this life. A patriarchal blessing is eternal, and its promises may extend into the eternities. If one is worthy, all promises will be fulfilled in the Lord’s due time. Those promises and blessings that are not realized in this life will be fulfilled in the next.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/patriarchal-blessings?lang=eng

I know that some blessings are specifically intended to occur in mortality and not eternity, so it may not apply to you.  For example, my blessing mentions children of both sexes in mortality.  So does my wife's, believe it or not!  Well, my wife and I struggled with infertility.  Fertility specialists and doctors were fairly certain it was not in the cards for us.  So, you can imagine how difficult and confusing our blessings were for us for nearly 10 years!  Many of you know that I keep a prayer journal.  I have a journal entry where I was praying about my blessing and meditating about it's purpose and meaning, wondering what to make of the promise of children in mortality.  Despite what doctors told us, I had an experience while praying.  I had a deeply profound impression that children were on the way.  I recorded that in my journal. I remember thinking as I recorded that, "what am I doing? I can't have children!"  The spirit assured me, "yes you can."  So I finished the journal entry as I was impressed to.  A few years passed and I began to question my experience again.  We started looking into adoption and fostering.  Then, out of the blue, my wife tells me she is pregnant.  We had a boy.  A couple years later, out of the blue, my wife tells me she is pregnant again.  We had a girl.    I can't speak about all patriarchal blessings.  I have no doubt that patriarchs are fallible.  But mine has been spot on in every word. 

[Duncan]

44 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't know what you are speaking of specifically, and this may not help in your particular case, but it has been said that patriarchal blessings are eternal.  Perhaps an eternal perspective might help.

I know that some blessings are specifically intended to occur in mortality and not eternity, so it may not apply to you.  For example, my blessing mentions children of both sexes in mortality.  So does my wife's, believe it or not!  Well, my wife and I struggled with infertility.  Fertility specialists and doctors were fairly certain it was not in the cards for us.  So, you can imagine how difficult and confusing our blessings were for us for nearly 10 years!  Many of you know that I keep a prayer journal.  I have a journal entry where I was praying about my blessing and meditating about it's purpose and meaning, wondering what to make of the promise of children in mortality.  Despite what doctors told us, I had an experience while praying.  I had a deeply profound impression that children were on the way.  I recorded that in my journal. I remember thinking as I recorded that, "what am I doing? I can't have children!"  The spirit assured me, "yes you can."  So I finished the journal entry as I was impressed to.  A few years passed and I began to question my experience again.  We started looking into adoption and fostering.  Then, out of the blue, my wife tells me she is pregnant.  We had a boy.  A couple years later, out of the blue, my wife tells me she is pregnant again.  We had a girl.    I can't speak about all patriarchal blessings.  I have no doubt that patriarchs are fallible.  But mine has been spot on in every word. 

why get a PB in this life when God knows that the promises will be fulfilled in the next, to me that's a carrot on a string

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Duncan said:

that's what I say, if having one or not having one come to mean the same thing then what value is having one? why not just teach the right principles and just forget the whole thing? in our stake our former patriarch went inactive and I know one couple, now inactive, got theirs from him and then later from the new patriarch and he said anyways, they were both different blessings so now what does that mean? would I get something entirely different from some other patriarch? further,  I know Pres. Monson said your blessing is a page from life's book of possibilities, well, how do you plan your life on a possibility? it's possible you might get run over by a car, it's possible you might get married but end in a murder suicide, it's possible your house could catch fire and you lose everything, how do you plan for a trillion things that might possibly happen?

When I was a child, my mother read me a story along those lines:

Quote

ONCE upon a time there was a farmer and his wife who had one daughter, and she was courted by a gentleman. Every evening he used to come and see her, and stop to supper at the farmhouse, and the daughter used to be sent down into the cellar to draw the beer for supper. So one evening she was gone down to draw the beer, and she happened to look up at the ceiling while she was drawing, and she saw an axe stuck into one of the beams.  2 It must have been there a long, long time, but somehow or other she had never noticed it before, and she began a-thinking. And she thought it was very dangerous to have that axe there, for she said to herself: "Suppose him and me was to be married, and we was to have a son, and he was to grow up to be a man, and come down into the cellar to draw the beer, like as I'm doing now, and the axe was to fall on his head and kill him, what a dreadful thing it would be!" And she put down the candle and the jug, and sat herself down and began a-crying.  https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/efft/efft71.htm .

The story goes on from there, but you can see the direction it is going, and even as a child I could see how silly this daughter and her family were.

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

why get a PB in this life when God knows that the promises will be fulfilled in the next, to me that's a carrot on a string

Well, aren't most gospel promises only going to be realized in the next life?  Why learn about the resurrection, celestial glory, eternal families, exaltation, etc. if they are only going to be realized in the next life.  I would suggest they offer hope and perspective.  Life is more than mortality.  Why limit our perspective to mortality when life is so much more? 

[ERMD]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My husband's brother was told he was of another tribe than the rest of his family, so he thinks he was adopted in or something. 

Also, there are stories of people that have chosen different career paths because of their patriarchal blessings.

And also some that were changed, from the one they were given then the typed up one, they were mailed later on. 

 

 

My understanding of situations like this is, it is more of a "spiritual" lineage (premortal state?) than a physical, genetic lineage.

I have no references to this.

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, ERMD said:

Quote

My husband's brother was told he was of another tribe than the rest of his family, so he thinks he was adopted in or something. 

My understanding of situations like this is, it is more of a "spiritual" lineage (premortal state?) than a physical, genetic lineage.

I have no references to this.

I think it's a Patriarch getting a little carried away sometimes.
Lineage concerns birthright blessings and priesthood authority.  Ephraim being the birthright lineage, with the right to preside.

I don't think it's a spiritual description at all, although I do believe that adoption into a non-physical genetic lineage is possible.

[JLHPROF]

36 minutes ago, Duncan said:

why get a PB in this life when God knows that the promises will be fulfilled in the next, to me that's a carrot on a string

The problem is we've flipped the meaning of a patriarchal blessing into some kind of personal prophecy.
We need to remember the origin of a patriarchal blessing dates back to the early patriarchs who gathered their posterity around and blessed them.

Patriarchal blessings are supposed to be a continuation of these blessings.  They have every right to promise us blessings according to our obedience and to seal things upon our heads.
They aren't there to tell our futures.

[Duncan]

45 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The problem is we've flipped the meaning of a patriarchal blessing into some kind of personal prophecy.
We need to remember the origin of a patriarchal blessing dates back to the early patriarchs who gathered their posterity around and blessed them.

Patriarchal blessings are supposed to be a continuation of these blessings.  They have every right to promise us blessings according to our obedience and to seal things upon our heads.
They aren't there to tell our futures.

See, that's not how it's explained when you get it it's a roadmap or if you do X then God will do Y and it'll all happen and whatnot, like you'll have no trouble learning a language for your mission, so if you do what it takes to get on a mission then God will help you with the language(provided you go to a foreign speaking mission!)

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Well, aren't most gospel promises only going to be realized in the next life?  Why learn about the resurrection, celestial glory, eternal families, exaltation, etc. if they are only going to be realized in the next life.  I would suggest they offer hope and perspective.  Life is more than mortality.  Why limit our perspective to mortality when life is so much more? 

I know but aren't we told that the Gospel is the only way to be happy and the Church is the only way to get exaltation and the sooner the better and people outside the Church "they aren't really happy"

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1987/10/they-re-not-really-happy?lang=eng

[pogi]

26 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I know but aren't we told that the Gospel is the only way to be happy and the Church is the only way to get exaltation and the sooner the better and people outside the Church "they aren't really happy"

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1987/10/they-re-not-really-happy?lang=eng

I'm not sure I understand how this relates to a patriarchal blessing, but in defense of the talk, he was not saying that people can't be happy outside the church.  He was simply saying "don't mistake telestial pleasure for celestial happiness and joy."   

[Duncan]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

I'm not sure I understand how this relates to a patriarchal blessing, but in defense of the talk, he was not saying that people can't be happy outside the church.  He was simply saying "don't mistake telestial pleasure for celestial happiness and joy."   

well, we are told that the Gospel is the only way to happiness and talks like this fortify that belief and people outside the Church "aren't really happy" and that the transitory things of the world are just that transitory and so people who engage with that stuff are not actually happy. That is what a PB is for to help navigate us through this life but then the opinion is shared that a PB doesn't have much to do with this life and it's mostly for the next and I ask why get one then, we live here, today not there , tomorrow, sufficient is the say for the evil thereof

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

well, we are told that the Gospel is the only way to happiness and talks like this fortify that belief and people outside the Church "aren't really happy" and that the transitory things of the world are just that transitory and so people who engage with that stuff are not actually happy. That is what a PB is for to help navigate us through this life but then the opinion is shared that a PB doesn't have much to do with this life and it's mostly for the next and I ask why get one then, we live here, today not there , tomorrow, sufficient is the say for the evil thereof

I don't think this talk fortifies that belief.  I don't actually know anyone who believes that people outside the church aren't happy.  I agree that true, enduring happiness comes through living gospel principles.  I would suggest that most non-members live gospel principles in their day-to-day lives for the most part.  They don't need to be baptized members to live true principles and be happy.

While PB's are indeed intended to help navigate us through mortal life, they are also intended to provide eternal perspective and blessings.  It is not one or the other. They are eternal in perspective though, not temporal only.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, ERMD said:

My understanding of situations like this is, it is more of a "spiritual" lineage (premortal state?) than a physical, genetic lineage.

I have no references to this.

I don't believe it is strictly spiritual. I believe I am a literal descendant of Ephraim, for example.

Certainly there is a spiritual component as to promised blessings and responsibilities attendant to the particular tribe. But what you seem to be suggesting is that it is figurative as pertaining to mortality. I don't go along with that.

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Two things:

1- I got my PB in 1996.  Every 5 years or so I take it out and read it, and I do indeed see where various items have come to pass.  I'm glad I got it, and I have made much effort to follow it.  I've let it guide decisions that have taken my life down different paths than I ever would have gone, and I've been blessed because of it.

2- Patriarch dude said something like "You can preach the gospel to those with which you associate, in your own way."  The transcribed record says "You can preach the gospel to those with which you associate."    Go figure.

Who made the edit?

Not me, that's all I know for sure.  I heard what he said, and I read the hard copy when it was mailed to me a while later.

Just another example of the ongoing battle between free will and determinism. Authoritarianism and unfettered liberty.  If I ever find out, it'll probably settle the grand debate, so I think I'm happy not knowing.

Edited December 31, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[LoudmouthMormon]

dup

Edited December 31, 2019 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

2 hours ago, ERMD said:

My understanding of situations like this is, it is more of a "spiritual" lineage (premortal state?) than a physical, genetic lineage.

I have no references to this.

More than likely we all are descendants of all the tribes by now given intermarriage (whether or not some of the original DNA survives in us or has been pushed out), so a premortal lineage would actually make more sense to me than a physical literal genetic (whatever tribal leader's DNA is of highest percentage in us).

I speculate it is a particular spiritual lineage that can be nurtured by us when we know of its potential in us through the blessing and we are told of this potential so as to help us through that stage of development.  I figured in that sense in the end we will be of all the 12 tribes.  But for now think of maybe something like wanting to be a musician and somehow being able to access all your ancestors who were musicians to help you learn.  (Talking about Dune probably made me think of this...what happens when the preborn are exposed to spice).

[Duncan]

57 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't think this talk fortifies that belief.  I don't actually know anyone who believes that people outside the church aren't happy.  I agree that true, enduring happiness comes through living gospel principles.  I would suggest that most non-members live gospel principles in their day-to-day lives for the most part.  They don't need to be baptized members to live true principles and be happy.

While PB's are indeed intended to help navigate us through mortal life, they are also intended to provide eternal perspective and blessings.  It is not one or the other. They are eternal in perspective though, not temporal only.

If people outside the Church are happy then we are fooling ourselves with the Church and Gospel, if it adds nothing to our life to better us then what are we doing?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

I know but aren't we told that the Gospel is the only way to be happy...... and people outside the Church "they aren't really happy"

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1987/10/they-re-not-really-happy?lang=eng

I am not reading it that way.  Just because someone is not a member of the Church doesn't mean they are therefore residing in the great and spacious building...those are the specific individuals being referred to as having the appearance, but not the reality.

Quote

Even though you have a testimony and want to do what is right, it is difficult not to be drawn to the great and spacious building. From all appearances, the people in the building seem to be having a great time. The music and laughter are deafening. You would say to me what my children have said, “They’re not really happy, huh, Dad?” as you watch them party.

 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Duncan said:

If people outside the Church are happy then we are fooling ourselves with the Church and Gospel, if it adds nothing to our life to better us then what are we doing?

Happy is not an on and off state, it is a continuum...actually I think of it as more a hodgepodge...our emotions are a mass of different feelings attached to different experiences we are going through all at the same time plus all the other emotions attached to our memories of our memories of past experiences...it is all a big blob of feeling (like a barely mixed blob of different colours of play doh) and some people may have more spring green in there (spring green is my color of happiness), but pure spring green without even occasional dull crimson red (anger) or grey gray (boredom)...not happening in mortality I bet .  Full, complete, perfect happiness is probably not experienced by anyone.  Hopefully most people's lives can be happy in most aspects, but I think it is likely unrealistic to think happiness should be as if present in every cell of you body every minute of your life.  Probably waxes and wanes for most people, I am guessing.

If your job is, for example, excruciatingly boring because you chose it as high value for what it provides for your family, you may be very happy in your family situation, but work would likely be tolerable.  And that could be for a member or non and has nothing to do with the Gospel really.

So what is the plus of being a member?...adding in more of the deeper, more intense eternal colours of glory to our blob.  Or think of it as adding an additional layer of meaning.  Sure, you can live a great life without those particular meanings in one's life, just as you could live a life of companionship without marriage or family, but if it is something you desire, why not have it in your life as soon as you can?

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, Duncan said:

If people outside the Church are happy then we are fooling ourselves with the Church and Gospel, if it adds nothing to our life to better us then what are we doing?

I didn’t say it adds nothing to our lives.  Acknowledging happiness in others doesn’t detract from the blessings that membership offers. But again, from the eternal perspective, you can’t find what our church offers anywhere else.

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Happy is not an on and off state, it is a continuum...actually I think of it as more a hodgepodge...our emotions are a mass of different feelings attached to different experiences we are going through all at the same time plus all the other emotions attached to our memories of our memories of past experiences...it is all a big blob of feeling (like a barely mixed blob of different colours of play doh) and some people may have more spring green in there (spring green is my color of happiness), but pure spring green without even occasional dull crimson red (anger) or grey gray (boredom)...not happening in mortality I bet .  Full, complete, perfect happiness is probably not experienced by anyone.  Hopefully most people's lives can be happy in most aspects, but I think it is likely unrealistic to think happiness should be as if present in every cell of you body every minute of your life.  Probably waxes and wanes for most people, I am guessing.

If your job is, for example, excruciatingly boring because you chose it as high value for what it provides for your family, you may be very happy in your family situation, but work would likely be tolerable.  And that could be for a member or non and has nothing to do with the Gospel really.

So what is the plus of being a member?...adding in more of the deeper, more intense eternal colours of glory to our blob.  Or think of it as adding an additional layer of meaning.  Sure, you can live a great life without those particular meanings in one's life, just as you could live a life of companionship without marriage or family, but if it is something you desire, why not have it in your life as soon as you can?

when my Mom joined she was told the world was ending, that people who refused to believe were heathens and that kind of rhetoric so to escape that, you join the Church and be happy. This was in 1967

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

when my Mom joined she was told the world was ending, that people who refused to believe were heathens and that kind of rhetoric so to escape that, you join the Church and be happy. This was in 1967

She was told that by members to persuade her to join or the nonmembers were saying it so,she joined a more positive faith?

Where did she live at the time if the first?

I always laugh when people talk about how homogenous the Church is and everyone thinks alike and we all teach the same things.

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

She was told that by members to persuade her to join or the nonmembers were saying it so,she joined a more positive faith?

Where did she live at the time if the first?

I always laugh when people talk about how homogenous the Church is and everyone thinks alike and we all teach the same things.

the members were saying that, as if they were these chosen ones, specially selected among the heathen horde👺

 

she lived here at the time

Edited January 1, 2020 by Duncan

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Quote

Even though you have a testimony and want to do what is right, it is difficult not to be drawn to the great and spacious building. From all appearances, the people in the building seem to be having a great time. The music and laughter are deafening. You would say to me what my children have said, “They’re not really happy, huh, Dad?” as you watch them party.

 

Sounds like a Grateful Dead show, whatever it is! Music, laughter, dancing, all around a good time being had. Anyone live streaming their New Year's Eve show tonight? $40, go here: www.livedead.co

8:45 San Francisco time!

Love live couch tour!

(somehow I think the "great and spacious" building is not a positive thing to compare a Dead show to, but hey, I'm getting warmed up for the show tonight!)