Appearance of the Savior to the wife

[2BizE]

11 hours ago, alter idem said:

And how would Elder Oaks know that, since the tradition has been for a long time that these very sacred experiences be kept to oneself?  If they keep them to themselves, who knows who has and hasn't had this experience?  I suspect that Elder Oaks did not make a blanket statement that no apostle has seen the Savior, cause I'm sure he knows that there are some who have.

On January 23, 2016, Elder Oaks spoke at a fireside in Seattle, WA. USA.   Below is a question Elder Oaks responded to.  The audio of the fireside is also provided.  It’s a nice fireside to listen to.

Youth Question:

What should we pray for to receive the same testimony and/or conversion that Alma the Younger experienced, for our friend who are not members?”

Elder Oaks answers:

“I’ve never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew. But it’s just that unless the Lord chooses to do it another way, as he sometimes does; for millions and millions of His children the testimony settles upon us gradually. Like so much dust on the windowsill or so much dew on the grass. One day you didn't have it and another day you did and you don’t know which day it happened. That’s the way I got my testimony. And then I knew it was true when it continued to grow.“

Here's a link to the audio (names of youth removed) https://soundcloud.com/mormontalk/elder-oaks-youth-fireside-01-23-2016

 

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

On January 23, 2016, Elder Oaks spoke at a fireside in Seattle, WA. USA.   Below is a question Elder Oaks responded to.  The audio of the fireside is also provided.  It’s a nice fireside to listen to.

Youth Question:

What should we pray for to receive the same testimony and/or conversion that Alma the Younger experienced, for our friend who are not members?”

Elder Oaks answers:

“I’ve never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew. But it’s just that unless the Lord chooses to do it another way, as he sometimes does; for millions and millions of His children the testimony settles upon us gradually. Like so much dust on the windowsill or so much dew on the grass. One day you didn't have it and another day you did and you don’t know which day it happened. That’s the way I got my testimony. And then I knew it was true when it continued to grow.“

Here's a link to the audio (names of youth removed) https://soundcloud.com/mormontalk/elder-oaks-youth-fireside-01-23-2016

 

Alma the Younger was stopped on his way to destroy the Church, and for 3 days and 3 nights he was racked with inexpressable horror, but like Alma the Younger Elder Oaks knows that Jesus is the Christ. So, they diverge in how they came to that witness, but they have that witness. I doubt few people, aside from Alma the Younger and Paul had the same exact experience, but the outcome is the same like Elder Oaks said-"Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew"

I can think of of Apostles, Prophets, Seventies who have shared their witness of Christ in a vision.i.e. President Joseph F. Smith, Marion G. Romney, Rulon S. Wells, John Henry Smith, Hugh B. Brown, Melvin J. Ballard, Orson F. Whitney, James E. Faust to name a few.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Duncan

[Anijen]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! That is all, carry on.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Duncan said:

Alma the Younger was stopped on his way to destroy the Church, and for 3 days and 3 nights he was racked with inexpressable horror, but like Alma the Younger Elder Oaks knows that Jesus is the Christ.

If I was thinking about what the questioner asked in regards to Alma the Younger's type of experience happening for nonmembers, I would not assume he was talking about the type of visitations that come to already converted and faithful believers, but rather those who were resisting accepting the Gospel.  So it hardly surprises me that Elder Oaks says he doesn't know of anyone who had that kind of experience.  

Now if the example used had been the Brother of Jared...that's more in line with what we expect apostles and prophets to experience, imo.

For anyone claiming the above fireside comment means no visitations at all, how do you address the context the questioner creates of it being about nonmembers?

Quote

What should we pray for to receive the same testimony and/or conversion that Alma the Younger experienced, for our friend who are not members?”

It is awkwardly phrased, but it seems clear to me he was thinking of praying like Alma's father did for his friend who is a nonmember to learn the truth through an experience like Alma's.  He was not speaking of praying to receive a vision himself.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Calm

[Ahab]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

Alma the Younger was stopped on his way to destroy the Church, and for 3 days and 3 nights he was racked with inexpressable horror, but like Alma the Younger Elder Oaks knows that Jesus is the Christ. So, they diverge in how they came to that witness, but they have that witness. I doubt few people, aside from Alma the Younger and Paul had the same exact experience, but the outcome is the same like Elder Oaks said-"Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew"

I can think of of Apostles, Prophets, Seventies who have shared their witness of Christ in a vision.i.e. President Joseph F. Smith, Marion G. Romney, Rulon S. Wells, John Henry Smith, Hugh B. Brown, Melvin J. Ballard, Orson F. Whitney, James E. Faust to name a few.

Alma the younger didn't receive a vision of our Savior in person.  When he was experiencing pain for his rebellion against God and what he had been taught by his parents who were members of the Church in his day, he thought about what his father had taught him about our Savior and then pleaded for Jesus to save him from his sins.  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/1988/05/the-conversion-of-alma-the-younger?lang=eng

[mnn727]

22 hours ago, Anijen said:

Publicly they haven't. However, I have been in privet settings where they have,

Having said that, do you feel that sometimes the wording and careful phrasing could be interpreted as a physical appearance rather than a spiritual one?

I don't believe they have, so physical vrs spiritual makes no difference.

So when have you had private audiences with the Prophets and Apostles where they have "spelled it out"?

[Anijen]

10 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

So when have you had private audiences with the Prophets and Apostles where they have "spelled it out"?

They visit the area. I have a tendency to ask the questions that I probably shouldn't after these meeting. Some have spoke quite frankly some have veiled it in the sacred  wordage, some are just really cool and smile at me.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Anijen said:

They visit the area. I have a tendency to ask the questions that I probably shouldn't after these meeting. Some have spoke quite frankly some have veiled it in the sacred  wordage, some are just really cool and smile at me.

When you ask if they know of any apostles who have ever seen the Savior in person do you say something like "other than the original 12 and Paul and several of the first apostles in this dispensation" or do you just leave it as an open ended question?

[alter idem]

On 11/26/2019 at 10:28 PM, 2BizE said:

On January 23, 2016, Elder Oaks spoke at a fireside in Seattle, WA. USA.   Below is a question Elder Oaks responded to.  The audio of the fireside is also provided.  It’s a nice fireside to listen to.

Youth Question:

What should we pray for to receive the same testimony and/or conversion that Alma the Younger experienced, for our friend who are not members?”

Elder Oaks answers:

“I’ve never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience. Yet everyone of us knows of a certainty the things that Alma knew. But it’s just that unless the Lord chooses to do it another way, as he sometimes does; for millions and millions of His children the testimony settles upon us gradually. Like so much dust on the windowsill or so much dew on the grass. One day you didn't have it and another day you did and you don’t know which day it happened. That’s the way I got my testimony. And then I knew it was true when it continued to grow.“

Here's a link to the audio (names of youth removed) https://soundcloud.com/mormontalk/elder-oaks-youth-fireside-01-23-2016

 

Thanks for sharing the quote, and it looks like what I thought.  He didn't deny this happens, as he said here;  " But it’s just that unless the Lord chooses to do it another way, as he sometimes does; ".   He's saying that the Alma the Younger experience is rare and as I said, both Alma the Younger and Paul were in need of a big time course correction for what they were doing, in fighting and working to destroy the Lord's church.  I don't think any of our modern apostles fit that mold so naturally, they would not have something as dramatic as that happen.  It still doesn't mean they've never had a spiritual manifestation that they don't wish to share openly with the public (even with other Apostles)and of course, Elder Oaks was speaking of his own experience. He doesn't know what others have experienced.  I believe that a lot of us have had powerful spiritual experiences we don't share with others or with only a close family member and no one else, for various reasons.

[JLHPROF]

Reading the comments on this thread it's almost like many don't want to admit anyone recently has seen or met the Savior.  Like it's something that's not supposed to happen.  Leave Christ as an idea instead of a person sort of thinking.

The level of doubt in this scriptural pattern is astounding.

Edited November 28, 2019 by JLHPROF

[Metis_LDS]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Reading the comments on this thread it's almost like many don't want anyone to have seen or met the Savior.  Like it's something that's not supposed to happen.  Leave Christ as an idea instead of a person sort of thinking.

The level of doubt in this scriptural pattern is astounding.

I was not brave enough to say it, but now that you have I fully agree.  What drives this???

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I was not brave enough to say it, but now that you have I fully agree.  What drives this???

I see a number of posters, including myself, who are quite comfortable imo with the belief that Christ appears to people, including apostles and prophets.   Mostly consistent with other positions posters hold as far as I remember.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Calm

[alter idem]

On 11/26/2019 at 12:52 PM, pogi said:

I am not really doubtful that some may have seen him, I don't see why not.  If he could visit ancient apostles in resurrected form, why not modern ones?  But these accounts are mostly "dreams", and 1 "voice".  Only 2 out of the 8 accounts seem to speak of a seeing him with their eyes while awake, but those are second hand accounts.  If the traditions you mention are correct, then we wouldn't have second hand accounts, or first hand accounts for that matter. 

The only one that seems somewhat plausible to me is the D&C 110 account, but that one is also described as a "vision".  It seems evident to me that the first "vision" was a vision/dream while Joseph was unconscious on the ground. 

 

   I don't know about Joseph being unconscious, he didn't say he was, you're making that assumption. I don't think we should discount a sacred experience simply because it came as a dream or a vision--I don't think God dismisses that form of communication, as he uses different ways to commune with us.

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

I see a number of posters, including myself, who are quite comfortable imo with the belief that Christ appears to people, including apostles and prophets.   Mostly consistent with other positions posters hold as far as I remember.

My friend from school, has come out that she has experienced seeing the Saviour after a terrible accident and near death. So I get that some do see Christ when so close to the other side. 

[JLHPROF]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

I see a number of posters, including myself, who are quite comfortable imo with the belief that Christ appears to people, including apostles and prophets.   Mostly consistent with other positions posters hold as far as I remember.

I agree Calm.  That position seems prevalent.

Yet when someone suggests a contemporary person has actually met the Savior that position suddenly includes all the reasons why they couldn't have met the Savior.  Or reducing it down from the presence to a dream or vision.  Or removing any idea of qualifications necessary.

Basically we all believe it can happen.  And that it happened anciently or historically.  But anyone alive today have a face to face relationship with the Savior...the hemming and hawing begins.

 

[Metis_LDS]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Basically we all believe it can happen.  And that it happened anciently or historically.  But anyone alive today have a face to face relationship with the Savior...the hemming and hawing begins.

Don't tell them about Adam coming back to visit also.

[pogi]

8 hours ago, alter idem said:

   I don't know about Joseph being unconscious, he didn't say he was, you're making that assumption. I don't think we should discount a sacred experience simply because it came as a dream or a vision--I don't think God dismisses that form of communication, as he uses different ways to commune with us.

I agree.  I am not discounting anything, but Anijen is talking about a visitation in bodily form and not in dream/vision, and it looked like you posted these accounts as evidence of multiple bodily visitations, but these really are not what he is talking about (except for maybe the D&C one).

You are right that my understanding of the first vision is just my interpretation or “assumption”, but it is no less of an interpretation/assumption than any other. 

But it is fairly safe to say that he did lose consciousness at some point.  When the vision began he said “my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded as I was enwrapped in a heavenly vision” (he had no consciousness of his natural surroundings in at least one account).  He continues, “when I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.”

“When I came to myself” indicates he was not in a regular state of consciousness but found himself lying on his back.  And of course he does call it a “vision”.

This in no way discounts the experience in my mind, it is just another way to look at it from examining the accounts.

Edited November 29, 2019 by pogi

[Calm]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I agree Calm.  That position seems prevalent.

Yet when someone suggests a contemporary person has actually met the Savior that position suddenly includes all the reasons why they couldn't have met the Savior.  Or reducing it down from the presence to a dream or vision.  Or removing any idea of qualifications necessary.

Basically we all believe it can happen.  And that it happened anciently or historically.  But anyone alive today have a face to face relationship with the Savior...the hemming and hawing begins.

 

I used “appears”, not “appeared”.  I don’t see any reason why if it happened in the past, it wouldn’t happen today. I am not seeing what you seem to see as a significant majority of posters being dismissive of it happening now. 

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I used “appears”, not “appeared”.  I don’t see any reason why if it happened in the past, it wouldn’t happen today. I am not seeing what you seem to see as a significant majority of posters being dismissive of it happening now. 

Yes, I don't see that either. The question is more about whether the OPs expectations about the Saviour specifically appearing to wives of apostles are shared by others, and what they say has happened. It's not about what can or does happen generally.

 

[alter idem]

On 11/28/2019 at 2:37 PM, pogi said:

I agree.  I am not discounting anything, but Anijen is talking about a visitation in bodily form and not in dream/vision, and it looked like you posted these accounts as evidence of multiple bodily visitations, but these really are not what he is talking about (except for maybe the D&C one).

You are right that my understanding of the first vision is just my interpretation or “assumption”, but it is no less of an interpretation/assumption than any other. 

But it is fairly safe to say that he did lose consciousness at some point.  When the vision began he said “my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded as I was enwrapped in a heavenly vision” (he had no consciousness of his natural surroundings in at least one account).  He continues, “when I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.”

“When I came to myself” indicates he was not in a regular state of consciousness but found himself lying on his back.  And of course he does call it a “vision”.

This in no way discounts the experience in my mind, it is just another way to look at it from examining the accounts.

The first part you quoted--I'm assuming it is from a different version from the official one.  I think only Joseph Smith would really be able to say if he lost consciousness or not and in his official account he does not.  While he says he found himself lying on his back, that was after the experience--he did not explicitly say he lost consciousness at any time, because he tells us everything that happened leading up to seeing God and Jesus Christ, which was the important part. The only time he could have lost consciousness is at the end, after it happened.

In his official account he says he was 'seized upon by some power...'  he called upon God for deliverance  and 'at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction...just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head. above the brightness of the sun...'  No loss of awareness of his surroundings or what was happening to him when it was most critical to what was happening.  And I don't see in the official account that he refers to it as anything but actually happening to him.   Some seem to want to make a distinction between something actually happening, like someone walking in a door, and seeing a vision or having a dream that was clearly prophetic and I'll make the point once again, I don't think God makes distinctions.  Lehi had visions, I don't think that was a lesser form of communication.  Joseph had dreams, I don't  think those are lesser communication.  Moriancumr saw Jesus in a cloud, then his finger and then his whole body.  Was it a vision or like seeing Jesus walk through a door?  Does it really matter?  Not to me, what matters is that they communed with Jesus Christ.  I guess I take issue with those who want to make distinctions and rank types of heavenly manifestations.

 

 

[mnn727]

On 11/28/2019 at 10:38 AM, JLHPROF said:

Reading the comments on this thread it's almost like many don't want to admit anyone recently has seen or met the Savior.  Like it's something that's not supposed to happen.  Leave Christ as an idea instead of a person sort of thinking.

The level of doubt in this scriptural pattern is astounding.

I don't doubt that people can see the Savior, just that its a requirement for an Apostle and apparently now, their wives. Seems like a real stretch to me.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

I don't doubt that people can see the Savior, just that its a requirement for an Apostle and apparently now, their wives. Seems like a real stretch to me.

I agree.

The question is whether you would accept on faith any vague statements implying they might have.

It's one thing to say it's not a requirement.  It's another when they allow members to believe thy have based on vagaries or to frame a certain knowledge statement in such a way that a spiritual witness implies physical appearance.

[alter idem]

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

I don't doubt that people can see the Savior, just that its a requirement for an Apostle and apparently now, their wives. Seems like a real stretch to me.

That's my feeling as well.  Where did this belief come that being a special witness for Christ means they must see him in the flesh?  The only possibility I can think of is that in the New Testament, when the Apostles met to decide on a new apostle they felt it should be someone who had seen Christ.  But, that wasn't hard since at that time, most of his followers had seen Christ, he lived among them for three years.  I don't feel it is necessary for an apostle to see Jesus to be able to bear witness that he lives.  It is by faith, and as far as I know, Apostles are supposed to exercise faith also.  I also don't think that having Jesus appear to a person in the flesh is a necessary part of having one's calling and election made sure, though it is something to strive for if a person receives their second anointing, but it's not up to them, it's up to the Lord whether or not the he chooses to grant this blessing in this life.  It will surely happen in the next, and Immortal beings don't seem to make the same distinctions between this life and the next, since they live and think in an eternal sphere.  I also don't understand thinking the Apostles wives should have a right to see Christ.  It's a spiritual gift, not a right and it doesn't come simply because of who you marry.  I don't think being an apostle's wife or a prophet's wife has anything to do with receiving this spiritual manifestation, it only comes if God chooses to grant it.

[Stargazer]

On 11/25/2019 at 6:51 PM, Jeanne said:

I think that many mormons believe that Prophets and Apostles have seen Christ as it is insinuated that they have. 

I guess I'm one of those "mormons," then!

Quote

Some of those who have had the second annointing are still waiting...It is how they keep you in.'

I think this has been mentioned before in this thread, but the second anointing is not a personal visitation by the Savior, at least as far as I am aware.

As for the "how they keep you in" thing, that's kind of a snarky swipe 😄 , but fair enough.  Joseph Smith testified that he saw both the Father and the Son.  It is how this whole thing started, and you could say that it is how they got me in. If there hadn't been a very serious vision or something similar (add to that the Angel Moroni), I would have said "that's nice, I hope you get something out of it!" and just got on with my life. I was already convinced that Jesus was the Son of God. I didn't need to belong to some man-made church, and I wasn't a member of any, either.  What got me into this was someone had a credible witness of Christ (speaking of the First Vision), and after a personal witness or witnesses that it was indeed all true, there I was and here I am. What keeps me in is the occasional reminder through the Spirit that it remains all true.

Quote

Edited to add:  That because it is so special and they have been asked not to tell you...in my view is because they haven't.  Who wouldn't want the world to know?

 

Who wouldn't want the world to know?  Nobody!  Of course they want the world to know.  It's the world which doesn't want to know.

You remember the reaction Joseph Smith got when he told about his experience in the grove?  

What is the difference between someone who says he or she knows that Christ lives because he or she has been visited by Christ, and someone who says it but who has not been visited?  The latter one surely believes it, and feels strongly that Christ lives.  The former one has a "more sure word of prophecy" to quote Paul. And in the former case, the more sure word of prophecy would be confirmed by the Spirit. Which is what @alter idem said.

On 11/24/2019 at 11:40 PM, pogi said:

After some pictures and pleasantries, my bro in law asked him if it is true that he has seen the Lord (My sister in law and her kids confirmed this to me), he responded with a smile “we are not that kind of witnesses”.   I have seen the pictures and know it went down.

Years and years ago, Elder Boyd K. Packer gave a general conference talk, "The Spirit Beareth Record", which I have trotted out to this forum every time this subject has come up. And predictably get the same reactions -- it's very reliable. "Oh, he didn't mean that, for goodness' sake!"

Nevertheless, Elder Packer says: "Occasionally during the past year I have been asked a question. Usually it comes as a curious, almost an idle, question about the qualifications to stand as a witness for Christ. The question they ask is, 'Have you seen Him?'"

This is the same idle question that @pogi's brother in law asked. Elder Packer doesn't say how he answered the question.  But he continues:

"That is a question that I have never asked of another. I have not asked that question of my brethren in the Quorum, thinking that it would be so sacred and so personal that one would have to have some special inspiration, indeed, some authorization, even to ask it.  There are some things just too sacred to discuss."

Elder Packer goes on to say that he has heard others bear record of the Savior, and that the Spirit bore record as to the nature of their testimony.  He concludes his talk:

"Now, I wonder with you why one such as I should be called to the holy apostleship. There are so many qualifications that I lack. There is so much in my effort to serve that is wanting. As I have pondered on it, I have come to only one single thing, one qualification in which there may be cause, and that is, I have that witness. [emphasis in the original]

I declare to you that I know that Jesus is the Christ. I know that he lives. He was born in the meridian of time. He taught his gospel, was tried, was crucified. He rose on the third day. He was the first fruits of the resurrection. He has a body of flesh and bone. Of this I bear testimony. Of him I am a witness. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen."

Now, you can say that he never claims to have seen the Lord in person.  And you wouldn't be wrong.  But perhaps the Spirit might bear record to you that he had.

As for pogi's brother-in-law's idle question, President Nelson gave it an idle answer -- all the answer the question deserved.  "Not that kind of witness" -- the kind that passes out testimony of the most important experience that a person might receive in this life as if it were just idle chit-chat.  

I've had some pretty serious spiritual witnesses that took my breath away. I don't share them with idle questioners.  I would not dare to ask President Nelson if he had seen the Savior.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Stargazer

[pogi]

27 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

 

 

nevertheless, Elder Packer says: "Occasionally during the past year I have been asked a question. Usually it comes as a curious, almost an idle, question about the qualifications to stand as a witness for Christ. The question they ask is, 'Have you seen Him?'"

This is the same idle question that @pogi

That is a question that I have never asked of another. I have not asked that question of my brethren in the Quorum, thinking that it would be so sacred and so personal that one would have to have some special inspiration, indeed, some authorization, even to ask it

There are some things just too sacred to discuss.

First, as I have stated, I don’t doubt that some have seen them, but as I noted, if the experience is so sacred as to be entirely private, then the title “special witness” can’t indicate that they have seen Christ as that would make it very public.  In fact, some have explained what it means and they explain it in spiritual terms.

I agree that it is an intrusive and personal question to ask if someone has seen Christ, but one can understand why someone might ask given such a deep history of Mormon folklore around the subject with much confusion and needed clarification.  Are they special witnesses of the resurrected corporeal Christ or in some other way?  Despite some clarifying that it is not indicative of a corporeal visitation - still, people don’t believe them.  To not believe them insinuates that they are liars.  I don’t believe that.  

Edited December 1, 2019 by pogi