Appearance of the Savior to the wife

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

First, as I have stated, I don’t doubt that some have seen them, but as I noted, if the experience is so sacred as to be entirely private, then the title “special witness” can’t indicate that they have seen Christ as that would make it very public.  In fact, some have explained what it means and they explain it in spiritual terms.

I agree that it is an intrusive and personal question to ask if someone has seen Christ, but one can understand why someone might ask given such a deep history of Mormon folklore around the subject with much confusion and needed clarification.  Are they special witnesses of the resurrected corporeal Christ or in some other way?  Despite some clarifying that it is not indicative of a corporeal visitation - still, people don’t believe them.  To not believe them insinuates that they are liars.  I don’t believe that.  

Does it have to be corporeal?  I don't think so.  Was Joseph's vision of the Father and the Son corporeal?  I don't think so, but maybe.  I think that one can have received an unusually strong witness of the Savior, without receiving a vision or some kind of literal visit, and count as a special witness, even if not called to be or act as such.  I feel certain that their status as special witnesses pertains to the nature of their witness of Christ -- and that it isn't necessary to assert or acknowledge a vision, even if one took place.  I would also like to point out that a vision is not corporeal. 

I remember receiving an incredibly strong witness as to the rightness of a particular decision I was contemplating.  The power of the witness made me marvel, and it was so strong that for me to say "I know it was the right thing to do" would be a profound minimalization.  I would expect someone with the heavy responsibility of an Apostle of the Lord to have received at least as strong a witness as that, but certainly even more so.  As for whether they are lying as to the exact nature of their experiences with the Lord, if the Spirit directs one to deflect idle (or even serious) questions that the Spirit does not concur on revealing, then is it lying?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/12.9-11?lang=eng

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.an

 

[pogi]

43 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Does it have to be corporeal?  I don't think so.  Was Joseph's vision of the Father and the Son corporeal?  I don't think so...

It seems we are of the same position then, so maybe I misunderstood what you were protesting in my post (still not sure given this post).  I don’t think it has to be corporeal either, but that is what is being discussed here and that is what I have been responding to.

[Stargazer]

On 11/28/2019 at 4:38 PM, JLHPROF said:

Reading the comments on this thread it's almost like many don't want to admit anyone recently has seen or met the Savior.  Like it's something that's not supposed to happen.  Leave Christ as an idea instead of a person sort of thinking.

The level of doubt in this scriptural pattern is astounding.

It continues to astonish me, too.

[Stargazer]

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

It seems we are of the same position then, so maybe I misunderstood what you were protesting in my post (still not sure given this post).  I don’t think it has to be corporeal either, but that is what is being discussed here and that is what I have been responding to.

Or I may be misinterpreting what you're saying! 🙂  I seem to be doing a lot of that around here lately.

[mnn727]

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[strappinglad]

In the D&C we have a description of the way to distinguish between spirits. A resurrected being can be touched. Are we saying that Joseph only saw visions, never corporeal entities?

We are told that the Father and Son have bodies as tangible as man's. Is that just a good guess? 

Both the Bible and the BoM tell of the case when Christ told people to handle Him. Should it be a surprise that there are those in the current era who have also do so? 

Imagine the mocking from the great and spacious bunch if everyone who had seen Christ announced it to the world. Besides, us '  Mormons ' are such good secret keepers.

 

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Besides, us '  Mormons ' are such good secret keepers.

We're supposed to be.

"The reason we do not have the secrets of the Lord revealed unto us, is because we do not keep them, but reveal them; we do not keep our own secrets, but reveal our difficulties to the world, even to our enemies, then how would we keep the secrets of the Lord? ‘I can keep a secret till Doomsday’."  Joseph Smith 

[pogi]

9 hours ago, strappinglad said:

In the D&C we have a description of the way to distinguish between spirits. A resurrected being can be touched. Are we saying that Joseph only saw visions, never corporeal entities?

From my position, I am not saying he never saw corporeal entities (I don’t know if anyone here is really saying that), but from studying all the accounts of the first vision, I understand it to be a vision.  There is absolutely no account of Joseph asking to shake their hands or touch them in the first vision, so there is no possible way for him to have known if they were corporeal entities at that point if we are to believe the D&C.

9 hours ago, strappinglad said:

We are told that the Father and Son have bodies as tangible as man's. Is that just a good guess? .

That was a revelation that came after the first vision.  Line upon line.

9 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Both the Bible and the BoM tell of the case when Christ told people to handle Him. Should it be a surprise that there are those in the current era who have also do so? 

Wouldn’t surprise me.

Edited December 2, 2019 by pogi

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 11/29/2019 at 3:38 AM, JLHPROF said:

Reading the comments on this thread it's almost like many don't want to admit anyone recently has seen or met the Savior.  Like it's something that's not supposed to happen.

I absolutely believe -- and in fact positively know -- that the Saviour reveals Himself to His children in our day.

I also think, strongly, that many people who think they know what that means don't really.

Earlier, I asked you the following:

Quote

So in a vision one night, I handle something. Is that something 'physically' present in my room with me? Am I instead 'physically' present where the something resides? Is something else altogether happening? And how would I know?

You never responded. And that's fine. As I pointed out, Paul didn't know how to explain in everyday terms what he had experienced either.

The scriptures in fact are filled with language that suggests that visions are, well, visionary by nature ... whatever that really means:

• 'In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up ... Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged'. Where exactly was Isaiah 'corporeally' when he saw the Lord? The live coal 'touched' his lips, but he wasn't burnt. Why?
• 'I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos .. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last ... And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man ... And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last'. John says he was in Patmos when he had this experience. He heard a voice behind him and saw the 'Son of man' and was even touched by His right hand. Was the Lord 'corporeally' in Patmos with John? If so, were the seven golden candlesticks also there 'physically'?
• 'And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne'.
• 'But behold, Laman and Lemuel, I fear exceedingly because of you; for behold, methought I saw in my dream, a dark and dreary wilderness'.
• 'For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot ... And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had been carried away in the Spirit, and seen all these things, I returned to the tent of my father'. Where exactly was Nephi 'corporeally' during this vision on the mountain, and where was this mountain?
• 'Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there'.
• 'And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the three who were to tarry, and then he departed. And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things. And it was forbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them power that they could utter the things which they saw and heard; And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God'. The Three Nephites couldn't tell if they had been 'in the body or out of the body', but why didn't Nephi himself know. What had he seen when the three were caught up into heaven?
• 'The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain, And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence ... And it came to pass that ... Moses ... said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed. But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him'.
• 'The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell. I saw ... the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son'. These last are the Prophet Joseph's words.

And that's why I struggle with the kinds of questions posed in these threads. My experiences don't seem to match what people are asking about.

But that doesn't mean they didn't -- or don't -- happen.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Lemuel]

On 12/2/2019 at 12:08 AM, strappinglad said:

 

Imagine the mocking from the great and spacious bunch if everyone who had seen Christ announced it to the world. Besides, us '  Mormons ' are such good secret keepers.

 

Prophets get mocked.  It's part of the job.

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, Lemuel said:

Prophets get mocked.  It's part of the job.

Yeah, I like the way you're thinking.  But there's still that "pearls before swine" thing.  And Alma 12:9.

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

I tend to think that the FP and Q12 are reticent on this matter by commandment.  There've been occasions when I have started to tell about one or another personal sacred experiences, only to find myself being restrained by the Spirit.  A rather odd feeling, I have to say.  I try to say the words, but they won't come.

I believe that there are some things which must not be told, because the heart of the person being addressed is not ready for it.

I fell in love with my wife well before I ever told her I loved her.  The time to tell her had not yet come, so I refrained until the time was ripe.  I think that things of the Spirit are similar in some respects.

[ERMD]

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”

--Albus Dumbledore

[Hamba Tuhan]

16 hours ago, ERMD said:

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”

In the end, everything is happening inside our heads.

Last week, I was given a trial of new multifocal contact lenses. These lenses correct for near in the very centre, for far around the edge, and for everything in-between progressively between the two. That means that when I look, I have an infinite number of focal lengths that are simultaneously reflected onto my retinas, only one of which is clear for the particular object/s I want to see. That's the physical reality.

But brains are amazing, and so mine is in the process of learning to ignore all the data that doesn't create a clear image. And it's working! Sometimes the experience is a bit like the auto-focus function in a camera: my brain will zoom in and out trying to find the patterns of light that create an image in focus. Other times it just works without my even trying.

I had a follow-up visit with the optometrist yesterday and brought up how this experience has been a good reminder that all reality is 'virtual'. After all, the images on our retinas are upside-down, and at some point our brains have to decide that it is easier to navigate the world if they re-interpret the physical image.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Calm]

21 hours ago, ERMD said:

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”

--Albus Dumbledore

Using a character in a fantasy novel to speak on reality seems odd to me for some reason even if I agree with the concept. 

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In the end, everything is happening inside our heads.

Last week, I was given a trial of new multifocal contact lenses. These lenses correct for near in the very centre, for far around the edge, and for everything in-between progressively between the two. That means that when I look, I have an infinite number of focal lengths that are simultaneously reflected onto my retinas, only one of which is clear for the particular object/s I want to see. That's the physical reality.

But brains are amazing, and so mine is in the process of learning to ignore all the data that doesn't create a clear image. And it's working! Sometimes the experience is a bit like the auto-focus function in a camera: my brain will zoom in and out trying to find the patterns of light that create an image in focus. Other times it just works without my even trying.

I had a follow-up visit with the optometrist yesterday and brought up how this experience has been a good reminder that all reality is 'virtual'. After all, the images on our retinas are upside-down, and at some point our brains have to decide that it is easier to navigate the world if they re-interpret the physical image.

That reminds me of the experiment that was done many years ago wherein a few people wore lenses that inverted the images coming into their eyes, so everything was upside down. Eventually, their brains corrected the images and then everything was right-side up again.  Until they took the lenses off, whereupon everything was upside-down again!  And eventually their brains corrected for that and things were back to normal.