Appearance of the Savior to the wife

[Anijen]

I recently listened to a talk by Sister Nelson. In her talk she described being married to President Nelson and an experience she had when President Nelson became the President of the Church. She said due to the sacredness of the experience she will not go into detail. I am assuming she was visited by the Lord confirming to her that her husband has been called as the President of the Church. I believe that all of the Prophets  and Apostles, past and present have seen the Savior.  I personally believe this to be a requirement to be called as Witness of Christ. 

Some of the things I would like to learn more about and discuss are the following.

1. Assuming the Savior appears to the Apostle and Prophet, is the wife also granted an appearance of the Savior?
2. Is an appearance from the Savior having your calling and election made sure? 
3. Is this limited to just Apostles and Prophets?
4.  Although I would agree that would be a very sacred and the top of most spiritual experiences, Why not just say yes I have seen the Savior?

 

My thoughts:

Q 1, I believe this is probably true. I look at my wife and she is much more spiritual than I am, so this is easy to accept.

Q 2, I believe a visit from the Savior is a requirement to have your calling and election made sure. However, I believe also an appearance from the Savior does not in itself make your calling and election made sure, perhaps he came to chastise you, hmmm.

Q 3, I believe there are some out there righteous enough to be granted an appearance from the Savior and they do not have to be an Apostle or the President of the Church. I have personally listened to Elder Brian K. Taylor at a Stake Conference in North dakota and later at a Stake Conference in Iowa and felt strongly that he has seen the Savior.

Q 4, after some reflection on this question, I have came to the conclusion I too, would only share that experience with those closest to me, if at all. 

 

Just some thoughts I have been thinking about lately and would like to hear your thoughts as well, please share.

Thanks

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Anijen said:

I recently listened to a talk by Sister Nelson. In her talk she described being married to President Nelson and an experience she had when President Nelson became the President of the Church. She said due to the sacredness of the experience she will not go into detail. I am assuming she was visited by the Lord confirming to her that her husband has been called as the President of the Church. I believe that all of the Prophets  and Apostles, past and present have seen the Savior.  I personally believe this to be a requirement to be called as Witness of Christ. 

Some of the things I would like to learn more about and discuss are the following.

1. Assuming the Savior appears to the Apostle and Prophet, is the wife also granted an appearance of the Savior?
2. Is an appearance from the Savior having your calling and election made sure? 
3. Is this limited to just Apostles and Prophets?
4.  Although I would agree that would be a very sacred and the top of most spiritual experiences, Why not just say yes I have seen the Savior?

First, I don't believe that every Apostle and Prophet have met their Savior.  I think there is ample evidence against such a blanket statement.  I do believe many have.

1. Assuming the Savior appears to the Apostle and Prophet, is the wife also granted an appearance of the Savior?
   Appearances are different from visitations.  But no, I don't believe it automatic that if the husband does the wife does also, or vice versa.
   There are too many variables in personal worthiness to allow for that.
    
2. Is an appearance from the Savior having your calling and election made sure? 
   No, your calling and election is when the Savior lays his hands upon your head and says well done my good and faithful servant, you will receive your kingdom (exaltation).
   A mere appearance or vision is not the same thing.
    
3. Is this limited to just Apostles and Prophets?
   A vision, or the privilege of seeing the Savior can be granted to anyone deemed worthy and needful.
   The calling and election requires certain ordinances as a prerequisite.  That doesn't limit it to Apostles and Prophets, but it does limit it.
    
4.  Although I would agree that would be a very sacred and the top of most spiritual experiences, Why not just say yes I have seen the Savior?
   I am under the impression they are given instruction not to, even to the point of making a covenant.  Those that receive their second anointing preparatory to this event are likewise under the same covenant.

[sunstoned]

many GAs, if not all, have gone through the second anointing ceremony as have a few who have later left the church. IIRC this is the calling and election made sure ceremony, and by the accounts that I have read, Jesus wasn't part of it.

[JLHPROF]

41 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

many GAs, if not all, have gone through the second anointing ceremony as have a few who have later left the church. IIRC this is the calling and election made sure ceremony, and by the accounts that I have read, Jesus wasn't part of it.

This is a general confusion.

Yes, the second anointing is the calling and election, as in we are called to become in the first endowment.  And chosen (elected) in the second.  Hence many are called, few are chosen.

But nothing is made sure until the Savior seals it upon us personally.  That is why this event is also known as the "more sure word of prophecy", the spirit of prophecy being the testimony of Christ.  As Joseph Smith taught:  "it is one thing to be on the mount & hear the excellent voice &c &c. and another to hear the voice declare to you you have a part & lot in the kingdom"

So we are encouraged to make our calling and election sure.  The second anointing is part 2 of 3.

The first three names AND tokens used in the temple are directly connected to this three part process.

Edited November 24, 2019 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I am under the impression they are given instruction not to, even to the point of making a covenant.  Those that receive their second anointing preparatory to this event are likewise under the same covenant.

This.

 

[Metis_LDS]

5 hours ago, Anijen said:

Assuming the Savior appears to the Apostle and Prophet, is the wife also granted an appearance of the Savior?

I used to live in the Washington Temple district which at the time included large parts of Canada.  One time the Temple President came to speak.  This is about 40 years ago, what he said was so stunning I have always remembered it   He said very plainly in a meeting that shortly after being called as Temple President  he was taken on tour of the Temple while out of his body to every room of the Temple.  He was not with his wife when this occurred but speaking with her afterward she said she had the very same experience at the same time he did while they were apart.   I still can hear him say this as it were yesterday.  

Edited November 24, 2019 by Metis_LDS
correction

[Metis_LDS]

17 hours ago, Anijen said:

Although I would agree that would be a very sacred and the top of most spiritual experiences, Why not just say yes I have seen the Savior?

I have had a vivid dream of the Savior (It seems many also experience this).  I have not had a waking (or does one say woke now) vision of the Savior.  If I did I would not have a problem telling people (but not on the internet).  Having a visit of the Savior in person (I could touch his feet as I lay down crying on them) now sharing that experience would give me pause and I am not a public figure in anyway.  It crosses all sorts of boundaries so many I cannot think about them all.  To be clear I have not had a personal visit from the Savior.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Metis_LDS
grammar

[rpn]

18 hours ago, Anijen said:

Some of the things I would like to learn more about and discuss are the following.

1. Assuming the Savior appears to the Apostle and Prophet, is the wife also granted an appearance of the Savior?
2. Is an appearance from the Savior having your calling and election made sure? 
3. Is this limited to just Apostles and Prophets?
4.  Although I would agree that would be a very sacred and the top of most spiritual experiences, Why not just say yes I have seen the Savior?

4.   My guess if that isn't an easy "just say 'yes':  JS's first rendition didn't include it.

1.   I don't think that would necessarily be true.

2.  No, but you cannot become a "son of perdition" without perfect knowledge of Jesus and then rejection of Him, so  it might be part of it.

3.  We only know of published incidents of apostles and prophets.   But it seems likely that not everyone who has seen the Savior, talks about it to anyone, especially not to the public or in publications.

[Anijen]

2 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

I have had a vivid dream of the Savior (It seems many also experience this).  I have not had a waking (or does one say woke now) vision of the Savior.  If I did I would not have a problem telling people (but not on the internet).  Having a visit of the Savior in person (I could touch his feet as I lay down crying on them) now sharing that experience would give me pause and I am not a public figure in anyway.  It crosses all sorts of boundaries so many I cannot think about them all.  To be clear I have not had a personal visit from the Savior.

Your response has triggered a memory of reading somewhere of critics of the church saying the three witnesses experience was with their "spiritual eyes" not saying you're a critic... I understand both concepts however, here I am speaking more of a fully awake "walking" visitation.

[pogi]

21 hours ago, Anijen said:

I am assuming she was visited by the Lord confirming to her that her husband has been called as the President of the Church. I believe that all of the Prophets  and Apostles, past and present have seen the Savior.  I personally believe this to be a requirement to be called as Witness of Christ. 

True story - last year my bro-in-law’s family was hiking up big cottonwood canyon and ran into no other than 94 year-old President Nelson out for a hike (incredible!) in a baseball cap with another man they thought might be his body guard.  My bro-in-law left the church previous to this encounter but his wife and 2 kids are still active.

President Nelson stopped them and said “what a beautiful family!  Would you like me to take your picture”. My sister in law responded “Hey, I know you!  I did t recognize you with your hat.”  After some pictures and pleasantries, my bro in law asked him if it is true that he has seen the Lord (My sister in law and her kids confirmed this to me), he responded with a smile “we are not that kind of witnesses”.   I have seen the pictures and know it went down.  

Some may argue that even if he had, he wouldn’t just tell some random stranger all about it.  Perhaps, but I don’t think he would lie about it either but would give a more vague answer to avoid answering directly.

Edited November 24, 2019 by pogi

[Garden Girl]

This is just a personal experience of my sister's from approx 50 yrs ago that she shared with me, and how she cherished it..

My sister (now passed away in Jan 2018 at age 80) and I were extremely close, and it broke my heart that in her mid 20's she was in a terrible marriage, and it nearly broke her as a person... finally she had had enough and filed for divorce... at the time her 3 boys were aged 10, 8 and 6... only a high school education and one year at Provo (art/dance major).  In her late 20's she was faced with being the major support of them although our folks helped out... she was inactive in Church, although she was spiritual and prayed daily, etc.  She wanted nothing from her husband, and during this time she was deeply worried about how she was going to find work and take care of her boys and guide them through the next years... she was sick at heart, and felt so afraid of her future... One night as she was sleeping, she had a dream... and in her dream she saw this man (head and shoulders) and he looked at her with what she described as the kindest eyes she had ever seen... he spoke to her in a gentle voice, telling her not to be afraid... that she knew everything she needed to raise the boys... that she would be able to do so... When she woke up she was filled with complete peace, even confidence...  she found work at a major, upscale department store in the "Display" dept (this was when stores really decorated, had  mannequins, and seasonal decor storewide... she rose to be the manager of the dept... and raised her boys, all of whom became quite successful... and though not members of the Church, truly Christ centered... 

Through the years she would occasionally speak to me of her "dream" and the man that had spoken peace to her... and his wonderful, kind eyes...

GG

Edited November 25, 2019 by Garden Girl

[hoo rider]

On 11/23/2019 at 8:55 PM, Anijen said:

I recently listened to a talk by Sister Nelson. In her talk she described being married to President Nelson and an experience she had when President Nelson became the President of the Church. She said due to the sacredness of the experience she will not go into detail. I am assuming she was visited by the Lord confirming to her that her husband has been called as the President of the Church. I believe that all of the Prophets  and Apostles, past and present have seen the Savior.  I personally believe this to be a requirement to be called as Witness of Christ. 

 

Where are you getting the idea that our Prophets and Apostles are called as to be a Witness of Christ?  You might want to read D&C 107:23 which says the twelve apostles are called to be special witnesses of the name of Christ (emphasis mine).  I don't think being a witness of Christ is the same as being a witness of the name of Christ.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, hoo rider said:

Where are you getting the idea that our Prophets and Apostles are called as to be a Witness of Christ?  You might want to read D&C 107:23 which says the twelve apostles are called to be special witnesses of the name of Christ (emphasis mine).  I don't think being a witness of Christ is the same as being a witness of the name of Christ.  

That's what I had always heard. But know that many other than the prophets, feel that they've been in the presence of Jesus in near death experiences etc. And an other thought, what of those prophets and apostles that don't get that experience, what are they left to believe if they aren't getting the visitations.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Tacenda

[Calm]

2 hours ago, hoo rider said:

Where are you getting the idea that our Prophets and Apostles are called as to be a Witness of Christ? 

Probably from things like this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/prophets-and-apostles/what-are-prophets-testimonies?lang=eng

Quote

Special Witnesses of Christ

The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles each bear their personal testimony about the Savior and Redeemer of the World.

 

[Jeanne]

I think that many mormons believe that Prophets and Apostles have seen Christ as it is insinuated that they have.  Some of those who have had the second annointing are still waiting...It is how they keep you in.'

Edited to add:  That because it is so special and they have been asked not to tell you...in my view is because they haven't.  Who wouldn't want the world to know?

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Jeanne

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It is how they keep you in.

And you know this how?

[hoo rider]

4 hours ago, hoo rider said:

Where are you getting the idea that our Prophets and Apostles are called as to be a Witness of Christ?  You might want to read D&C 107:23 which says the twelve apostles are called to be special witnesses of the name of Christ (emphasis mine).  I don't think being a witness of Christ is the same as being a witness of the name of Christ.  

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Probably from things like this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/prophets-and-apostles/what-are-prophets-testimonies?lang=eng

 

Quote

 

Special Witnesses of Christ

The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles each bear their personal testimony about the Savior and Redeemer of the World.

 

 

That's what I figured.  It seems that many members of the church (including some leaders) hope that the apostles are the best/most worthy/most spiritual members of the church*** and therefore they have a special testimony of Christ due to being the best/most worthy/most spiritual.  Many times these beliefs are reinforced when the words of the scriptures are modified to leave out key elements (e.g. the name of). Yet when it comes time to determine exactly what makes their testimony of Christ special we end up with little substance and a lot of rumors and stories, such as the one that started this thread.  

For me, I figure if the Lord said that the apostles are called to be special witnesses of the name of Christ (emphasis mine) then he must have had a reason for adding those words (i.e. the name of) and therefore those words mean something.  My personal opinion is that the special witness of the name of Christ comes because of their calling, not because of the man who receives the calling is somehow special by himself or has had some special experience.  Rather, it is the authority of that calling that makes the witness of the name of Christ special.  Kind of like how any priesthood holder can give a blessing, but only a stake president can set a missionary apart for full time mission service (which is usually accompanied by a blessing).  It isn't that the stake president has something that has made him special as a man, but rather, it is his calling that makes the setting apart/blessing special and unique compared to what the normal (i.e. non-stake president) priesthood holder could do.  

 

*** Just so people don't get the wrong idea, I don't think the apostles are the worst/least worthy/least spiritual members either.  It seems to me they are good men who are doing the best they can which is similar to many members of the church all over the world who are also good men and women doing the best they can.  

[Calm]

“  It seems that many members of the church (including some leaders) hope that the apostles are the best/most worthy/most spiritual members of the church*** and therefore they have a special testimony of Christ due to being the best/most worthy/most spiritual.”

Perhaps, but I see it as more likely they assume apostles have seen Christ because that is an aspect of their calling.

The lack of “name of” doesn’t switch the definition of “special” in “special witnesses” to “different” or “unusual”.

I don’t believe I have seen any official teachings apostles and prophets are the most worthy/spiritual members of the Church. That falls, imo, into folklore. 

Special doesn’t need to mean unique or extraordinary, but can mean appointed to do something others are not as you discuss.

from google, one definition of special:

”a thing, such as an event, product, or broadcast, that is designed or organized for a particular occasion or purpose.”

Edited November 25, 2019 by Calm

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

And you know this how?

It was just my opinion.

[hoo rider]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

“  It seems that many members of the church (including some leaders) hope that the apostles are the best/most worthy/most spiritual members of the church*** and therefore they have a special testimony of Christ due to being the best/most worthy/most spiritual.”

Perhaps, but I see it as more likely they assume apostles have seen Christ because that is an aspect of their calling.

 

I don't believe I have seen any official teachings that all or even the majority of apostles have seen Christ because that is an aspect of their calling.  That falls, imo, into folklore.  

 

Quote

I don’t believe I have seen any official teachings apostles and prophets are the most worthy/spiritual members of the Church. That falls, imo, into folklore. 

Definitely no official teachings on that.  My statement on that comes from my observations of the culture of the church in various locations in the United States and Mexico over the last 25 years.  I wouldn't call it folklore, but certainly others could have different experiences/observations.  

[Calm]

“Elder Bednar: The role of an Apostle today is the same as it was anciently (see Acts 1:22; 4:33). Our commission is to go into all the world and proclaim “Jesus Christ, and him crucified” (see Mark 16:15, 1 Corinthians 2:2). An Apostle is a missionary and a special witness of the name of Christ. The “name of Christ” refers to the totality of the Savior’s mission, death, and resurrection—His authority, His doctrine, and His unique qualifications as the Son of God to be our Redeemer and our Savior. As special witnesses of the name of Christ, we bear testimony of the reality, divinity, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, His infinite and eternal Atonement, and His gospel.”

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/volume-12-number-2-2011/special-witnesses-name-christ

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It was just my opinion.

Based on what?

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, hoo rider said:

I don't believe I have seen any official teachings that all or even the majority of apostles have seen Christ because that is an aspect of their calling.  That falls, imo, into folklore.  

 

Definitely no official teachings on that.  My statement on that comes from my observations of the culture of the church in various locations in the United States and Mexico over the last 25 years.  I wouldn't call it folklore, but certainly others could have different experiences/observations.  

By folklore, I mean one of the folk teachings that gets passed around from time to time as if official teachings. 

[alter idem]

I don't believe being a special witness of Christ requires a visit in the flesh by the Savior.  I believe that it does happen to some people.  I believe that while a physical manifestation can be a part of having one's call and election made sure, it may not happen until we leave this life.  I don't know of any scriptures that say it is a requirement to see Christ to be able to bear testimony of him.  I believe Christ said that it was a greater faith to not see and to believe, which makes sense, since if you see Christ, as the Bro. of Jared did, you have knowledge, not faith. I know that some people insist that it is a requirement (Denver Snuffer is one of those) but I think this is wrong and as far as the Gospel of Jesus Christ is concerned, we're asked to live by faith, strive to have our calling and election made sure, but trust in God that he will grant us what he knows is right for us and our lives.  Some have lost perfectly good testimonies because they focused on this one thing, rather than humbly and patiently accepting God's will for them.

[alter idem]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I think that many mormons believe that Prophets and Apostles have seen Christ as it is insinuated that they have.  Some of those who have had the second annointing are still waiting...It is how they keep you in.'

Edited to add:  That because it is so special and they have been asked not to tell you...in my view is because they haven't.  Who wouldn't want the world to know?

 

It was the tradition for a long time not to talk about sacred things, and seeing the Savior would definitely fall under that category.  I did hear an apostle mention this (that this was the tradition and because of it some, like you, have said the Apostles have never seen Christ), and as he spoke about his own personal witness, the spirit impressed to me a witness that he had seen the Savior.  Because of my own personal experience hearing this, as far as I'm concerned, some of them have seen Jesus Christ, in the flesh, in vision, in dreams, whatever.  Just because they don't write books about it and go on the lecture tour telling others about it, doesn't mean it we should believe it never happens for them.