Could there there be more motives in Church polices and meetings?

[Traela]

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Does that mean no firesides, cottage evenings, or bishopric youth discussions?

They have most of those earlier in the day.  

[Amulek]

17 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I do however wonder why many changes are happening, and I am confused by some remarks at times. The Book of Mormon, along with the calling of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and all the Scripture that he both translated, and received himself. These things were supposed to bring about the “Fullness of the Gospel”, and the “Restoration of the Gospel”. Now, we are being told, “if we thought the Restoration was complete, we were mistaken”. I do understand the need for Modern Day Prophets to guide the Church, but some things do concern me. 

Well, the fullness of the gospel is really just the presence of everything necessary to return to live with our Father in Heaven. And the minimum requirements for that have already been met: priesthood keys have been restored, Christ's church has been organized on earth once more, and all of the saving ordinances needed to receive exaltation are available to mankind.

But the real lodestone of the gospel is continuing revelation. And we know that God "will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

It's exciting to live in an age where those changes and revelations are able to come, but I understand that sometimes change can feel a little rushed. I was joking with our bishop and EQ president the other day about how it used to be the case, back in the day, that you would receive a calling and have a pretty good idea about how it was going to work while you were serving in it. Now, every time you go to conference, there's a chance that your calling may change dramatically or (in rare cases) be effectively eliminated.

That can be a lot to get used to, but if you've hitched your start to continuing revelation, then it's all just part of what God wants for us at this time.

[PacMan]

10 hours ago, sunstoned said:

seriously? This is a nuisance CRF.  You know perfectly well the church is losing members. That is why they don't membership numbers anymore in conference.  Negative numbers are not faith promoting.

Nonsense. The church has always lost members at some rate. But the implication of negative growth is false. The positive rate, although slowed, is still better than most faiths.

Further, the numbers are still published in the Ensign.  But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, Duncan said:

meetings before and after. So, like when I was a EQ Pres. In YSA 2000-2002, we had PEC, 3 hours of Church, a ward Council meeting that went over the exact same things as we did in PEC, then after that we went out with a Stake Presidency member and visited people-so at least 6 hours, and more if you had bishopric mtg. previous to PEC. So, now it's 2 hours of Church and if you are in Bishopric you had an hour mtg before and then after church it's a one on one meeting with your auxillary presidency member -so YW Pres. meets with Stake YW Presidency members

We do visits with ward members and a stake leader for Ward conference as well, but we do it on the Thursday night before conference and we only go out for an hour.  Then we have no other meets on Ward conference Sunday.  I'm sure the bishopric probably has other things but no one else, not even ward council.

[PacMan]

10 hours ago, sunstoned said:

seriously? This is a nuisance CRF.  You know perfectly well the church is losing members. That is why they don't membership numbers anymore in conference.  Negative numbers are not faith promoting.

Nonsense. The church has always lost members at some rate. But the implication of negative growth is false. The positive rate, although slowed, is still better than most faiths.

Further, the numbers are still published in the Ensign.  But don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

[2BizE]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

I would agree to that but even with people in the ward knowing them they still fall away. It's almost like a drop kick into the deep end and if you can swim on your own with some guidance then great you'll stay otherwise you sink and people here are burned out and burned over. I think the attitude is what is the bare minimum I have to do for my calling so people who don't need much then I won't do much but people who aren't like that, rides, welfare needs, emotional problems etc. then they sink. So, the missionaries try to teach all these people but some get baptized but more go off and sink because the members aren't willing to help or are tied up in other stuff they have to do

Let me ask an honest question. 

Why is it so hard to come into the church and remain an active member?

We know the church retains about 25 per cent of new converts.  Why do so many leave and never come back?  Is it change?  Is it lack of change?  Why is it so hard?

I remember President Hinckley (I think) welcoming new converts saying to bring what you have and let us add upon it.  

Why has that not worked?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Papa, why do you think Church leadership might want to leave people like you behind?  I get that it can feel that way and I suspect a lot of members, even healthy ones, are feeling disoriented by all the changes, especially if there are lots locally.  However, I can't think of myself why leadership would see that as a good thing.  Perhaps you could explain how it might actually be a goal and why?

I guess not leave “us” behind, but leave our “ideas”, behind. Maybe trying to slim down the heard, and build faster, more trim Church that appeals to a more fast paced world. There was a time, when every adult in my family at Sunday dinner had a calling, and that was eight adults, now only two, and they have gotten word that maybe none will. This is what once defined us as a Church, one filled with those who served, not just those who showed up. I grew up in a Church where there were only Pastors and Deacons, and everyone were spectators. The point for me is moot, I can’t be counted on to serve anyone. But service, is what makes men and women mighty. 

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Let me ask an honest question. 

Why is it so hard to come into the church and remain an active member?

We know the church retains about 25 per cent of new converts.  Why do so many leave and never come back?  Is it change?  Is it lack of change?  Why is it so hard?

I remember President Hinckley (I think) welcoming new converts saying to bring what you have and let us add upon it.  

Why has that not worked?

Millions of reasons. Life happens and people learn that what they once believed is not true.  People get deeply affected by events at church and need to avoid the place. Our church is a lifestyle and some don’t have the inclination to live that lifestyle so they don’t feel they fit in with the masses who do.  Some people are all or nothing and if they feel they can’t be all they choose the nothing.  Some people are affected deeply by zealous parents and are turned off by that.  I could go on and  and on. 

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

We do visits with ward members and a stake leader for Ward conference as well, but we do it on the Thursday night before conference and we only go out for an hour.  Then we have no other meets on Ward conference Sunday.  I'm sure the bishopric probably has other things but no one else, not even ward council.

that sounds like a better idea! hahhaha! now, we just go and visit on our own or send the missionaries

[Duncan]

20 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Let me ask an honest question. 

Why is it so hard to come into the church and remain an active member?

We know the church retains about 25 per cent of new converts.  Why do so many leave and never come back?  Is it change?  Is it lack of change?  Why is it so hard?

I remember President Hinckley (I think) welcoming new converts saying to bring what you have and let us add upon it.  

Why has that not worked?

people go where they feel comfortable, people look for a community. If you don't know anybody or really get to know the doctrine then why would you stay? Pres. Eyring said that faith promoting experiences have a short shelf life. now, they got rid of gospel principles and so you have new members lumped into GD with people who have been around for 60 years and have been let's say a former Temple President and here you are and you have no clue what a Temple is-would you feel comfortable asking questions about it?  i'd wager most people would say no

We have what my Mum calls "hot and cold" members, some people are super active in some wards and totally inactive in other wards and people go through cycles of activity-we have an older couple that's like that-brag about being members for X amount of years and how they joined the church, but he has never been a Bishop, Stake Presidency and he wants to be so they go through cycles of inactivity and them someone will give them a big calling like bishopric or high council, they do that for some years and get released and they aren't the President or Bishop or whatever and maybe do another calling for awhile and then go inactive again and the cycle repeats itself.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

There was a time, when every adult in my family at Sunday dinner had a calling, and that was eight adults, now only two, and they have gotten word that maybe none will.

Please tell those who are craving callings that we have a pretty robust skilled migration program here and would be thrilled to put them to work!

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Why is it so hard to come into the church and remain an active member?

Have you read Jesus's parable of the sower?

[Ahab]

On 11/17/2019 at 1:18 PM, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Maybe it is may age, but are we running faster than we are able. Or more to the point, are we running and changing so fast, that people like myself cannot keep up, and is that the goal. 

No, we are not running faster than we are able.  We are running just as fast as we can while considering that we have a lot of old people who can't run as fast as they used to and tend to slow the rest of us down.  Unavoidable and not the fault of old people, just a fact of life that as we get older we're not able to run as fast as we once did.  But we can still try to run as fast as we can.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

No, we are not running faster than we are able.  We are running just as fast as we can while considering that we have a lot of old people who can't run as fast as they used to and tend to slow the rest of us down.  Unavoidable and not the fault of old people, just a fact of life that as we get older we're not able to run as fast as we once did.  But we can still try to run as fast as we can.

Old people can stay pretty fit into their older age. And have more time and lots of wisdom and life experience to offer. Where the young whippersnappers are busy with family and stressed to the max, sometimes. 

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I guess not leave “us” behind, but leave our “ideas”, behind. Maybe trying to slim down the heard, and build faster, more trim Church that appeals to a more fast paced world. There was a time, when every adult in my family at Sunday dinner had a calling, and that was eight adults, now only two, and they have gotten word that maybe none will. This is what once defined us as a Church, one filled with those who served, not just those who showed up. I grew up in a Church where there were only Pastors and Deacons, and everyone were spectators. The point for me is moot, I can’t be counted on to serve anyone. But service, is what makes men and women mighty. 

PLEASE SEND THEM TO MY WARD!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

PLEASE SEND THEM TO MY WARD!

If you are speaking of the “Lee Family”, not sure if you or your Ward could handle we Southerners, we are an odd lot.  

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

16 hours ago, Ahab said:

No, we are not running faster than we are able.  We are running just as fast as we can while considering that we have a lot of old people who can't run as fast as they used to and tend to slow the rest of us down.  Unavoidable and not the fault of old people, just a fact of life that as we get older we're not able to run as fast as we once did.  But we can still try to run as fast as we can.

Or “crawl or roll”, as fast as we are able.

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

If you are speaking of the “Lee Family”, not sure if you or your Ward could handle we Southerners, we are an odd lot.  

If they will do their calling we will take anyone. Plus we are in Texas. We are the South.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

48 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If they will do their calling we will take anyone. Plus we are in Texas. We are the South.

My brother lives in Texas, for the last 40+ years, save 4 years while serving in Germany while in the Army, plus 3 years in Leavenworth. Sadly his 20 year career, which was also his goal, got cut short, when he stole money from one of his men, to gamble, so that lead to a dishonorable discharge, and 3 years in prison. So, Texas may be a deal breaker. Since my Mother’s death, he felt like we should have gotten more money, as he still has a gambling problem, and now he hates my Sister and I with a passion. But, I never knew you were from, or lived in Texas. So, which is it, you live in Texas, or actually from Texas? If so, from what part of Texas? I still love my brother, and wish things were different, but he just hates me so much now. He lives in Trinity Texas, about 60-70 miles North of Houston. But, when it comes to filling callings, and magnifying their callings, we all do so, to a fault, if there is such a thing when it comes to the service of the Lord. I tried teaching all my children, by the three ways a Bishop of mine once told me, early on in my membership. He told me that “children learn in three ways, by example, by example, and by example”. So, this is how I taught when it came to Church Service, and when it came to teaching them, as did my Father, a “Work Ethic”. Thankfully, they are all hard working, and my sons are great providers for their families. Each who pursued secondary education, paying their way as much as possible. A couple did so, with the aide of some students loans, but most of the time by working, while attending school. They would allow us to help out some, but just wanted to do it on their own. Sorry, just a proud Father and Papa, I just love them all, so very much! I also understand their disappointment as of late, having grown up in a Church where service, even beyond HT & VT, or MA, was not only required, but also expected. 

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Old people can stay pretty fit into their older age. And have more time and lots of wisdom and life experience to offer. Where the young whippersnappers are busy with family and stressed to the max, sometimes. 

I don't know if there are any statistics to backup my observations but seems to me that as people get older they get more health problems, usually.  I'm sure there are some exceptions but even when people take care of themselves, eating good foods in moderation, health problems just seem to arise. Makes sense the older we get the closer we are getting to having our bodies wear out so that we can die.  Which seems to be the reason we get health problems.  Something has got to kill us.  Make us dead.  Causing our spirits to leave our bodies.

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

! I also understand their disappointment as of late, having grown up in a Church where service, even beyond HT & VT, or MA, was not only required, but also expected. 

You might suggest they go in to the bishop and volunteer for callings if they haven't already.  Quickest way to get called in my experience.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

35 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I don't know if there are any statistics to backup my observations but seems to me that as people get older they get more health problems, usually.  I'm sure there are some exceptions but even when people take care of themselves, eating good foods in moderation, health problems just seem to arise. Makes sense the older we get the closer we are getting to having our bodies wear out so that we can die.  Which seems to be the reason we get health problems.  Something has got to kill us.  Make us dead.  Causing our spirits to leave our bodies.

We should not put the elderly out to pasture if they want callings, that's all.

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

We should not put the elderly out to pasture if they want callings, that's all.

Obviously not.  We keep our apostles until they die of old age.  And I like that we do that even though they sometimes develop some very debilitating health issues as they get older and older.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

You might suggest they go in to the bishop and volunteer for callings if they haven't already.  Quickest way to get called in my experience.

My daughter did, she has asked to be “Young Women’s Camp Director”, for the last four years, when her oldest daughter turned 12, as she has such fond memories of these activities, with her mom (my wife) doing the same, while she was growing up. I have heard rumors that a lot of our youth activities are also being changed or eliminated. I don’t know for sure, are they? Also, going in and requesting certain callings is difficult, and might be viewed as favoritism, since the Bishop is my daughter’s brother-in-law. My son-in-law was, and was loving being the Young Men’s President, yet another calling that is, or has been eliminated. Currently my wife, and my daughter-in-law (and my son with her) are Primary Teachers. But just this Sunday, the Primary President who thought my wife and I were still out of town for a funeral, told my wife she did not have to teach that Sunday. She then told her, that she was being asked to reorganize the entire Primary, due to this week’s special State Conference. She then (as my wife relays the story) just kind of threw her hands up in the air, and said, “I thought things were great, and I have great teachers, but now I am being asked to reorganize Primary, when I am not even sure, who will still be in our Ward come Sunday”. It is simply the human condition, that change, even good change creates an amount of stress. But, when the change brings uncertainty, and seems to come at those affected like one wave after another knocking them off balance, it creates even greater stress”. So, here is hoping this weeks Stake Conference brings positive change, as these constant Ward boundaries changes, are letting many falling through the cracks. I am hoping to feel well enough, as I hope for each week to attend Church, as I have said, I am just one of those off fellows who loves being with, and meeting with the Saints. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

27 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Obviously not.  We keep our apostles until they die of old age.  And I like that we do that even though they sometimes develop some very debilitating health issues as they get older and older.

Yes we do, in their cases, and other General Authorities, we want, we need, we crave their wisdom, even if from a wheelchair. On the local levels, they are the people we speak of as, often a drain on our resources. I am not old, by any standard, just dealing with a lot of health problems, but I am only 62. Now, in my case, I am unable to do very much that requires a lot of physical activities, but their is nothing wrong with my mind or spirit, although many view me as completely crippled.