Anger

[Calm]

As typically taught in the Church imo:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/09/dealing-with-anger-and-contention?lang=eng

Quote

One of the challenges of mortality is learning to govern ourselves, to actively cultivate positive, healthy emotions and eliminate negative ones. This is an essential part of growing in spirituality.

Though the scriptures refer to several instances of righteous anger, such as when Jesus drove the money changers from the temple, the anger expressed in our homes is rarely either righteous or beneficial. “I found myself slamming doors and raising my voice, and I could see that it would be only a matter of time or degree of anger before I would blow up and do something I really regretted,” reports a father. “So I decided to make some serious changes.”

President Wilford Woodruff assures us that we can determine not to let anger control us:

“I made up my mind years ago to be governed by certain principles. I resolved that I would never be controlled by my passions … nor by anger, but that I would govern myself. This resolution I have endeavored to carry out in my life.” (Matthias Cowley, Wilford Woodruff, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1964, p. 397.)

Children need a good example from parents and from older brothers and sisters even more than they need special instruction. If we throw or bang things, if we hit, scream, yell, or swear, our children are apt to follow our example. On the other hand, our example of love, helpfulness, tolerance, and cooperation can set a pattern children will follow in handling their angry feelings.. .

“Then one day my wife and I were reading in the book of Mosiah, the fourth chapter and the fourteenth and fifteenth verses: ‘And ye will not suffer your children … that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil … ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another.’ We found the Lord’s way, as contained in the scriptures, so much better than the ways of the noted college professor. When we taught our children to love one another, peace returned to our home.” (In Costa Rica Area Conference Report, Feb. 1977, pp. 15–16.)

Harmony in the home can increase when we ask the Lord in both our family and personal prayers to help us see each other differently and control our negative feelings. If we humbly acknowledge our weaknesses before the Lord and ask him to help us overcome them, our humility and faith in him will “make weak things become strong.” (Ether 12:27.)

A good way to start changing the weaknesses in our families into strengths is to stop doing negative things. Consider this insight:

“The most powerful human incentive, in families or organizations, is the opportunity to grow in an atmosphere free from accusing attitudes and evasion. Simply giving up our own negative attitudes is the best thing we can do to help others give up their negative attitudes and grow. If this is our primary desire, there is no limit to the power for good we can have. When others give up their negative attitudes in response to us, they become free to turn and affect other people in the same way, including ourselves. What they give back to us is love. In this way individuals liberated from self-concern create around themselves a society that cares for them and motivates them further to care in return.” (C. Terry Warner, “What We Are,” BYU Studies, Winter 1986, p. 55.)

 

 

[InCognitus]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Have you raised children?  If so, how do you respond to them when they make you angry?

Sometimes all it takes is an angry look, and it does the job.

 

[provoman]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

God alone seems able to display a kind of holy anger or indignation. A controlled response that operates without malice. I am not convinced humans are capable of that while in fallen flesh.

There are very few things the [anger] should be aimed at.

I like what you posted and would add.

That anger is associated with God, then can it be said anger is a Godly trait?

Anger, like any other human traits that is also attributed to Deity, is something that one must learn to use/manifest in a Godly way. 

Anger is no more a sin than sex, both have righteous manifestations and unrighteous.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, provoman said:

I like what you posted and would add.

That anger is associated with God, then can it be said anger is a Godly trait?

Anger, like any other human traits that is also attributed to Deity, is something that one must learn to use/manifest in a Godly way. 

Anger is no more a sin than sex, both have righteous manifestations and unrighteous.

If there are righteous applications of anger in this life when we cannot feel anger without malice then they are very rare. I would not equate it with sex in terms of righteous usage. More like killing. Yeah, you may have to do it in rare events but they should be very rare and you should structure your life to keep them rare.

[Meadowchik]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If there are righteous applications of anger in this life when we cannot feel anger without malice then they are very rare. I would not equate it with sex in terms of righteous usage. More like killing. Yeah, you may have to do it in rare events but they should be very rare and you should structure your life to keep them rare.

I think this can change within a lifetime with work.

[Jake Starkey]

The fact is that anger rarely manifests itself without malice.

If one can be angry with malice, then that is something else.

I have seen anger without malice but rarely, very rarely.

[MustardSeed]

Ironically, Ahab has left the building after Nehor put in a personal assessment. 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by MustardSeed

[CV75]

On 11/1/2019 at 10:11 AM, MustardSeed said:

This was shared on the modesty thread by Seeking Understanding:

A cunning part of [Satan’s] strategy is to dissociate anger from agency, making us believe that we are victims of an emotion that we cannot control.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1998/04/agency-and-anger?lang=eng

It is my opinion that parts of this are accurate but that the premise is misleading.

i believe anger is a useful indicator of injustice. 

The only thing that needs be controlled is behavior imo. And if anger is pervasive, it can be challenged with a reframe.

imo it’s harmful to suggest anger itself (the emotion) is sinful. 

Most of his references in the article speak to behaviors and thoughts. Which is fine, imo, but it bothers me when people say anger is wrong. It’s not. Imo we need not control (eliminate?) anger. It’s our behavior and thought we need to manage. 

I think anger and wrath are attributes we impute to God out of our fear of punishment. For example, David, in Psalms 38:1 is fearful of punishment; to the proud and guilty who know they are wrong but have lost that sense of redemptive remorse, to be judged, taught and corrected represent the epitome of punishment, and are hardest to take (1 Nephi 16:2). Hebrew words such as qetseph and chemah get translated into harsher terms such as wrath and hot displeasure etc., but actually were meant to convey decision, judgement and embarrassment or the cry of a broken heart. God, who is perfectly pure, will be sorely hurt by our sins (the same sentiments expressed in Jacob 2:6-9) and judge us regretfully and lovingly after having extended every mercy we are willing (and hurtfully unwilling) to receive. https://www.chaimbentorah.com/2014/12/hebrew-word-study-wrath-חמה/

Another example is Jesus cleansing the temple. Mark 11:17 says he “taught”; Luke 19:45 described Him as “Saying” (John 2:7, “saith”). The Church video portraying this event shows the reaction of the sellers and usurers far exceeds the actual energy Jesus is expending.

[Jake Starkey]

Anger almost never results in good results.

That Jesus did what He did in the Temple does not mean we get to do so.

[Meadowchik]

On 11/2/2019 at 11:52 PM, The Nehor said:

If there are righteous applications of anger in this life when we cannot feel anger without malice then they are very rare. I would not equate it with sex in terms of righteous usage. More like killing. Yeah, you may have to do it in rare events but they should be very rare and you should structure your life to keep them rare.

Anger is an element of human emotional processes and consciousness, we apply it regardless. Or in other words, it cannot be erased. It's just a question of managing it healthily or not. 

The first step of healthy processing is to acknowledge it. That's a big step:

"I am angry."

Then it's important to know what anger is and is not. It is a feeling, not a failing. In addition, it's critical to know what it means and doesn't mean. Anger doesn't mean the one who feels it is right or wrong, nor does it mean that who or whatever it's directed at is right or wrong.

Anger is more like a "check engine" light for us, which may or may not imply something about what's happening outside of ourselves. So it's important to check it, manage our inner worlds and take responsibility for our own feelings. 

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Ironically, Ahab has left the building after Nehor put in a personal assessment. 

 

I probably should have been booted but I have worked in enough child abuse cases for Ahab’s threatening style of disciple to set off alarm bells as that is the cliched self justification of an abuser. Anger is a manipulative tool to coerce compliance and they imagine that is  normal parenting.

[MustardSeed]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I probably should have been booted but I have worked in enough child abuse cases for Ahab’s threatening style of disciple to set off alarm bells as that is the cliched self justification of an abuser. Anger is a manipulative tool to coerce compliance and they imagine that is  normal parenting.

I don’t agree with his philosophy,  myself 

“Whats wrong with you?” likely won’t change anyone, either. 

[longview]

On 11/1/2019 at 9:27 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

On 11/1/2019 at 1:18 PM, Ahab said:

Are these rhetorical questions or do you really not know?

In the real world, there are actually people who claim that anger is bad, thus finding fault with both God and little children.  Moreover, if children (and animals) are innocent, can they be faulted for being angry?  Your answer to Calm's question about being angry with children also applies:  In the real world, children discover right away that anger is normal.  They get angry and so do their parents and siblings.  Is it thus a normal and acceptable thing to be angry?  What are the limits?  Do children learn that striking someone is O.K. when there is anger?  Of course I have my own answers to those questions.  However, the answers will differ among various POVs.  Who is correct?

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I probably should have been booted but I have worked in enough child abuse cases for Ahab’s threatening style of disciple to set off alarm bells as that is the cliched self justification of an abuser. Anger is a manipulative tool to coerce compliance and they imagine that is  normal parenting.

I have been reading this thread from time to time and I keep waiting for someone to mention the fact that ANGER is a secondary emotion.  This is something I have learned in the course of my marriage (this year is our 40th) from various sources, including the church parenting manuals.

What occurs is the primary (initial) emotion, such as surprise, shock, disappointment, frustration, impatience, whatever.  This quickly changes to feelings of anger.  It becomes an escalation or an increase in intensity (a rise in temperature and blood pressure).   Usually expressions of anger become counterproductive, destructive and (sadly) sometimes end up in an arrest for domestic violence or murder.  There may be an ongoing pattern that keeps repeating (might be from what they learned growing up in dysfunctional families and have not developed the necessary skills for problem resolution).

If people have serious problems with anger issues, they need to be able to stop themselves and recognize what they are feeling.  It may be necessary for them to say to the other person:  "I am feeling 'flummoxed' so I need to go away by myself to think through this.  Can we meet later to resolve this problem?"  Then the person needs to think carefully about what exactly is happening, the initial emotion he felt and then think of the other's perspectives.  Then ponder on a number of ways to see the big picture, applying admonitions of scriptures and the teachings of the church.  Such as choosing to be meek (a powerful principle that goes a long way to defusing the situation and inviting greater reconciliation 'encourage the other person to think of a better solution' and expressions of unconditional love).  One technique I have not forgotten is to say:  "I ... FEEL (what) ... ABOUT (this) ... BECAUSE (why) ..."

Jesus' expression of anger was NOT the 'explosive'  or 'revengeful' kind.  He was perfectly calm, assertive in the righteous manner.  The 'moneychangers' and other corrupt leaders most likely felt convicted of their sinful methods and KNEW in their hearts that Jesus had full authoritative jurisdiction over the sacred temple grounds.  It was His righteous indignation.  He proceeded in a deliberate manner in the cleansing operation.

[Thinking]

On 11/1/2019 at 8:35 AM, RevTestament said:

I have always considered anger to be a symptom of selfishness, and selfishness is generally sinful.

I disagree. I have witnessed people get angry when an injustice is done to another person.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, longview said:

have been reading this thread from time to time and I keep waiting for someone to mention the fact that ANGER is a secondary emotion.

I think that’s been addressed a few times here

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, longview said:

...............................

Jesus' expression of anger was NOT the 'explosive'  or 'revengeful' kind.  He was perfectly calm, assertive in the righteous manner.  The 'moneychangers' and other corrupt leaders most likely felt convicted of their sinful methods and KNEW in their hearts that Jesus had full authoritative jurisdiction over the sacred temple grounds.  It was His righteous indignation.  He proceeded in a deliberate manner in the cleansing operation.

Whether anger is a primary or secondary emotion seems to me to be irrelevant.  The real question is how do we express it.  I'm not sure that selecting this or that response of Deity is helpful, because that can include violent executions as well as more tempered responses.  Also, what did Jesus in fact do in his cleansing of the temple courtyard?  He is described as using a whip to drive out the merchants, and turning over their tables.  Sounds pretty explosive and violent to me.  Sounds to me as though he whipped some people.

In our own lives, can violence ever be justified?  Can a police officer use violence (if necessary) to effect an arrest?  Can we use violence in self-defense?  Does anger play a part in any of that?

[pogi]

I don't think anger and emotions in general are a choice.  You can't simply tell a sad person to be happy, or a content person to choose to be angry.  It just doesn't work like that.  We will not be judged for how we feel, we will be judged for what we do with those feelings and for the judgments/values that trigger the emotions in the first place. 

Here is the thing - some people assume that because we can't control our emotions directly, then we are somehow justified in blaming other people for our emotions. They blame the stimulus for their emotion as if there is no other possible way to respond emotionally.  The truth is, people can respond emotionally in a myriad of different ways even given the exact same stimulus.

Our perspectives, which includes our judgement and values, etc. are what cause emotions.  A stimulus travels through this filter of perspective/judgment/value and comes out as anger, happiness, peace, laughter, etc.  Our perspectives give birth to our internal emotional lives and can precipitate our reactions to those emotions.  Our emotions are valuable (even the ones we call "bad") in that they teach us about our perspectives/judgments.  If we simply use our emotions as tools to assess our judgments/values/perspectives, then they can be powerful tools for positive change.  So again, while we can't directly change or choose how we feel, we do have the power and ability to change our judgement/values/perspectives with focused attention and work. And of course, we also have the power and ability to change how we behave and act given an emotional like anger etc.  

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by pogi

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The real question is how do we express it.

IOW, how do we react to the anger that we feel?

[Ahab]

On 11/1/2019 at 5:13 PM, The Nehor said:

Pro tip: With the exception of Shrek that is exactly how mean old ogres and abusers think.

Your approach to discipline is to convince them to choose the right because otherwise dad will be angry and make scary faces and look threatening. The child will think your love is contingent on their behavior so they will cover up their mistakes and lie about them if needed. When they are taught about a Heavenly Father they will imagine a tyrant one misdeed away from exploding. Please reconsider or do not have children.

You seem to have a habit of wanting to libel other people.  In the future I would appreciate it if you would seek clarification from me about what I mean or how I would go about disciplining my own children when you think I might be talking about acting like you think would be in some horrible way.  I would certainly do a much better job of communicating with my children than you communicated with me in your post.  

Maybe it would help you to know that I am happy when my children do good things, so me being happy with how my children act is just a reflection of my realization that they are doing good things.  And on the flip side, I am not happy when they do bad things, so when they do something bad I show them and tell them and explain to them why Daddy isn't happy with them doing bad things.  There is and there has been nothing wrong with me acting this way.  The flip side would be for me to act happy when they do bad things and upset with them when they do good things, which is silly and makes no good sense whatsoever.  How do you imagine interacting with your own children when and if you ever have any children, someday?  And how do you think our Father in heaven feels when you do good things, or bad things?  Do you think he is happy with you when you go bad things?  Or upset with you when you do good things?  

[Ahab]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I probably should have been booted but I have worked in enough child abuse cases for Ahab’s threatening style of disciple to set off alarm bells as that is the cliched self justification of an abuser. Anger is a manipulative tool to coerce compliance and they imagine that is  normal parenting.

Maybe you missed it or misunderstood what I meant when I said I rarely get angry.  It's been years, as far as I remember.  I do get upset fairly often though, with a feeling of frustration or disappointment, usually when I notice people doing or saying bad or stupid things.  Sometimes instead of getting upset my sense of humor will kick in and I will think it is funny when I notice people say or do something bad or stupid, but sometimes I admit that I actually do get upset just from noticing people say or do stupid things, even when what they are doing isn't anything personal against me.  And I think this is perfectly normal, and good, otherwise... what... how else should a person respond or feel when they notice other people doing bad or stupid things?  Happy about seeing that kind of behavior?  Do you feel happy when you notice people doing bad or stupid things?  Does that give you some kind of pleasure?  And how do you respond when you see people say or do good and righteous things?  Do you get upset with those people? 

You're talking about some other kind of person if you are thinking of me as some kind of abuser.  And I think you owe me an apology for your unrighteous judgment against me.  Not that I ever expect to get it from you but I think you are the one in the wrong here and I do not appreciate your libelous accusations against me.  I hope you will try to be a better judge of what people say and do in the future.

[Robert F. Smith]

35 minutes ago, Thinking said:

IOW, how do we react to the anger that we feel?

Exactly.  On those occasions where I have maintained my cool, I have prevailed.  However, when I have not remained calm, I have paid a price.  Even when you are in the right, it might not be wise to respond in anger.  I think that is primarily because the Holy Ghost is grieved by anger, and will flee from you.

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Whether anger is a primary or secondary emotion seems to me to be irrelevant.  The real question is how do we express it.  I'm not sure that selecting this or that response of Deity is helpful, because that can include violent executions as well as more tempered responses.  Also, what did Jesus in fact do in his cleansing of the temple courtyard?  He is described as using a whip to drive out the merchants, and turning over their tables.  Sounds pretty explosive and violent to me.  Sounds to me as though he whipped some people.

In our own lives, can violence ever be justified?  Can a police officer use violence (if necessary) to effect an arrest?  Can we use violence in self-defense?  Does anger play a part in any of that?

I think the real question is what is it that causes us to feel anger?  Or to be upset with people?  Do we get angry when people do what we see as good things?  Or bad things?  I hope none of us gets angry when we see people do what we think of as good things.  So if it is the bad stuff we see people do that gets us angry, or upset if not a total rage filled anger, what is it about seeing people do bad or stupid things that causes us to feel upset with them?  I think it would have to be more than the fact that we consider their behavior to be bad or stupid that would cause us to feel upset or angry at them.  I think the reason would have to be more like because we do not like it when people do or say what we think are bad or stupid things.

So first we notice people do or say something bad or stupid, or at least it appears that way to us.  What they're doing could actually be a good thing and we are simply misjudging their behavior.  But, still, the first step would be to notice another person's behavior.

And then we would respond to what we think of that behavior, either approving of it or disapproving of it.  If we like it we would get some sense of pleasure, and if we didn't like it we would get upset or maybe even angry if we really really really did not like it.

So first, we notice, and then we respond.  And maybe we would use our mind to influence our outward behavior, or if not our response would be more emotionally driven, almost spontaneous, based on how we felt when noticing people do or say whatever they're doing.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Ahab

[MustardSeed]

Sometimes expressing a little anger is very very therapeutic.  

Everything can ultimately get resolved. That’s what I believe. 

No one is expected to be perfect. 

[Ahab]

28 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Sometimes expressing a little anger is very very therapeutic.  

Everything can ultimately get resolved. That’s what I believe. 

No one is expected to be perfect. 

I don't think we should ever get angry unless there is something that we really can't tolerate and our actions against it would cause it to stop.  But, still, my main point is that we should rarely get angry, preferring instead to be more tactful and diplomatic with trying to stop thins that we can not tolerate, or do not want to tolerate.

I think the only requirement of good therapy is that we have some good way to express our thoughts and feelings, both our positive feelings and our negative feelings.

When we like something, we should somehow be able to express that we like it, and when we don't like something, we should somehow be able to express that we do not like it. 

Keeping our thoughts and feelings all bottled up inside us, with no expression of how we feel or what we think, either way, is just not a good or healthy way to live these lives we have to live.

 

[MustardSeed]

47 minutes ago, Ahab said:

think the only requirement of good therapy is that we have some good way to express our thoughts and feelings, both our positive feelings and our negative feelings.

Ideal, yes.  

And since humans are human, anger can also help things become unstuck.  

I don’t think anger is a problem.