Anger

[LoudmouthMormon]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

What you describe as anger is what I would call being upset, which to my mind is a step lower than angry.  

I honestly was inches away from twisting their dumb little heads off.  I was literally trembling with rage - pulse and breathing had quickened, fight/flight centers of my brain were getting plenty of blood.  I'm trying how to think of that moment as me being upset, but I just can't reconcile it. 

Something to consider: It sounds like you think about emotions in terms of behaviors.  No behaviors = you must be feeling something else.  

[Maestrophil]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

A strong and firm NO! is sometimes necessary to let those who would take unfair advantage of you know that they can't just keep asking you for something until you will (they hope) eventually give in.

Saying it nicely doesn't seem to have the same effect, but I do try to be nice again soon after I express my anger.

You can be firm without being angry - I do it to my kids all the time.  🙂

[Maestrophil]

2 hours ago, rpn said:

Pretty sure anger is identified as a secondary emotion by psychologists trained in the issue.   It arises out of frustration or pain.

Exactly my sentiments earlier in the thread

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

I doubt that. There are many times expressing anger is detrimental, so people control themselves. Think if angry at a boss, in military situations, if mugged or threatened with assault,  driving where expressing anger may increase accidents or road rage in the other, etc. 

Then there is the fallout of getting angry at loved ones if they are sensitive to such. 

Loved ones should be sensitive to seeing other people get angry!  They're supposed to want to avoid causing people who love them to get angry!  At least I'm reasonable and get angry only when people do something really bad.  I don't get angry when people do good things.

When I get angry it is because someone has crossed a boundary in my domain or in the public domain, crossed it by doing something so blatantly bad that I can't tolerate just doing nothing about it.  But little things like people driving badly are not blatantly bad enough for me to get angry at a bad driver.  I have often been upset and frustrated at some people driving badly but not to the point I would define as anger.  And I don't get angry at leaders who make poor decisions, either, unless they do something blatantly bad, because they are entitled to be leaders in their own domain.  I might get mad if someone tried to assault me or someone else, though, maybe because they would only be trying and I could possibly stop them from getting that far.  Better to remain calm when fighting, I think. Think what is said about the dark side in Star Wars. It's always better to be on the side of the good guys.

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I honestly was inches away from twisting their dumb little heads off.  I was literally trembling with rage - pulse and breathing had quickened, fight/flight centers of my brain were getting plenty of blood.  I'm trying how to think of that moment as me being upset, but I just can't reconcile it. 

Something to consider: It sounds like you think about emotions in terms of behaviors.  No behaviors = you must be feeling something else.  

Okay, well, it was probably just transference on my part.  I pictured myself as only being upset by that type of situation, where for you it was enough to make you angry.

I think I described pretty well what I am like when I get angry.  Kaboom!  My anger shows so that people know when I am angry!  I can be upset and still be calm, though, one step lower than anger.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

think I described pretty well what I am like when I get angry.  Kaboom!  My anger shows so that people know when I am angry

How do you think a 2 year old might perceive you kabooming at Mom or older sibling?

[Ahab]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

How do you express your anger?  Do you yell or scream?  Throw things?

When I am upset, I can remain calm, but when I get angry, my voice is raised when I speak, if i speak, and I am aggressively focused on getting whatever has caused me to get angry to stop.

I don't usually need to yell or scream but I may if I feel I need to speak up to get my point across, and I wouldn't need to throw things unless I was trying to tear something down and needed to throw some things to get them out of my way.

My actions would depend on whatever I needed to do, or whatever I felt I needed to do, to try to get whatever has made me angry to stop.

I am usually very calm and collected, and it takes quite a bit to get me angry.  Something really bad, not just something I don't particularly like or appreciate.

I have a feeling that you have banned me from the site and from some threads a few times, I don't know for sure but I think you have Moderator privileges, but you have only upset me rather than caused me to get angry.  I figure that if you do have Moderator privileges then you have the right to control content on this site as you see fit, even if I don't agree with why you ban or limit me, when you do.  You have also misjudged me on some occasions, not correctly understanding my comments, but I'm not angry at you for that either.  I figure leaders are entitled to lead however they see fit in their own domain and If it gets to be a really big problem for me I can just leave their domain and no longer be subject to their rule.  Same goes for civil governments and organizations, too.  If I don't like what I get there, I can just leave.

A good example of something that angers me is somebody disrespecting my home or my property or the people I love, things or people in my domain.  My domain is mine to control, to the extent I am able to control it, and if somebody disrespects me or what is mine I am easily prone to getting angry.  I still try to be nice as soon as I can be after I get angry, though.  When I get angry I just want whatever is making me angry to stop.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

How do you think a 2 year old might perceive you kabooming at Mom or older sibling?

Hmm.  Dad is angry!  I hope he doesn't get angry at me!

My wife has never angered me, though, and I can't imagine how that would even be possible since what is mine is hers, too, and she knows why I get angry when I get angry.

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Ahab said:

have a feeling that you have banned me from the site and from some threads a few times, I don't know for sure but I think you have Moderator privileges, but you have only upset me rather than caused me to get angry

Your feeling is completely wrong. I do not have moderator privileges.  I was once a moderator on another board (you never posted there as far as I can tell) and I promised myself I would never be again. I broke that promise once and the experience has pretty much guaranteed I won’t break it twice.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Hmm.  Dad is angry!  I hope he doesn't get angry at me!

Your two year old is remarkable if that is his only reaction, in my experience. Fear is a more common reaction. Young kids  usually assume they are the problem as they see themselves as the center. They haven’t yet learned they are separate.  This is why they tend to blame themselves for divorces or think they can stop Dad from being angry at anyone by being very, very good. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Calm

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Your two year old is remarkable if that is his only reaction, in my experience. Fear is a more common reaction. Young kids  usually assume they are the problem as they see themselves as the center. They haven’t yet learned they are separate.  This is why they tend to blame themselves for divorces or think they can stop Dad from being angry at anyone by being very, very good. 

I talk to my children to tell them why I get angry so they can understand why I get angry at whoever I get angry with.  I don't abandon them to their own thoughts so that they have no recourse but to try to figure things out all by themselves, and I also teach them that people usually have specific reasons for why they get angry, or happy, or sad, or experience other emotions.  Simple cause and effect discussions.  This is happening because of that, my little Sweetie.  Things even a 2 year old can understand.

And, yes, fear is good motivator.  The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.  We don't want to make Daddy angry, do we?  We know why Daddy gets angry, don't we?  It is better to make Daddy happy than angry, isn't it, Sweetie?

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

We know why Daddy gets angry, don't we?  It is better to make Daddy happy than angry, isn't it, Sweetie?

Yeah, that is going to teach her she is responsible for your emotions. Not a good thing.  If you aren’t happy it is her fault. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Calm

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Yeah, that is going to teach her she is responsible for your emotions. Not a good thing.  If you aren’t happy it is her fault. 

Only to the extent that she has affected my emotions.  I teach my children specifics so they can understand what is going on.  To the extent that they have any power, they know it is better to make me happy than to make me angry, so if one of my children makes me angry they know they were the one who made me angry, which is what I tell them when they make me angry.  When I see them do something that I know is very bad, I tell them that their actions are bad, very bad, and that their actions have caused me to be angry at them.  They know I'm not angry at them because of something someone else did.  They know I would rather be happy than angry, and that they can do things to make me happy, too.  So it is their choice, their actions, to the extent that they have any power to affect how another person feels.   It's not like they have to wonder, Hmm, I wonder why Daddy is angry????  I tell them why and then see the connection between their actions and my response.

Btw, I don't have a daughter, yet, so a lot of this is planned parenthood rather than actual experience raising a daughter.  I plan to have millions of them, though, so the more practice I get the more perfect I expect to become.

[Calm]

You are thinking a two year old will be able to understand the distinctions. They don’t. Please read some child development books or at least look at the child’s body language. Is their face frozen, are they tense rather than curious,etc. 

[provoman]

8 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

This was shared on the modesty thread by Seeking Understanding:

A cunning part of [Satan’s] strategy is to dissociate anger from agency, making us believe that we are victims of an emotion that we cannot control.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1998/04/agency-and-anger?lang=eng

It is my opinion that parts of this are accurate but that the premise is misleading.

i believe anger is a useful indicator of injustice. 

The only thing that needs be controlled is behavior imo. And if anger is pervasive, it can be challenged with a reframe.

imo it’s harmful to suggest anger itself (the emotion) is sinful. 

Most of his references in the article speak to behaviors and thoughts. Which is fine, imo, but it bothers me when people say anger is wrong. It’s not. Imo we need not control (eliminate?) anger. It’s our behavior and thought we need to manage. 

Anger is in the Scripture 300+ times. In the D&C 14 times - almost all instances of anger in the D&C are in reference to the Lord.

So I agree, I do not think it is accurate to suggest anger is sinful. 

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Ahab said:

He also taught this in D&C 121: 

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

 

After I get angry I try to be nice again as soon as I can.

It is worth noting that this is not what we think of when we think of someone being sharp with someone. It means to reprove quickly. Not necessarily quickly right after the event though that is sometimes appropriate and sometimes we need to think first but it means make the reproof as quick as we can. Don’t linger over it, bring it up endlessly, or harp on it. I think of Alma and Corianton. Say what has to be said, offer counsel to help, and then love them more.

I am terrible at this.

I can say I have seen reproofs without scriptural sharpness and delivered in anger destroy families. I have seen an older teen screw up badly and come to their parents for help to be met with nothing but anger and “how could you?” venting. The teen left home and as far as I know never went back.

God alone seems able to display a kind of holy anger or indignation. A controlled response that operates without malice. I am not convinced humans are capable of that while in fallen flesh.

Anger often accompanies the realization of an injustice but I have my doubts the anger led to any correction that followed. Anger is like hate. There are very few things the emotion should be aimed at.

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I have met people like that, but I've never considered that what they needed more of to help with their problems was anger.  I'm not sure that adding more anger would actually improve anything.  I think that adding more self awareness and self worth usually fixes the bold, without anger being necessary.  

I think the difference is whether one recognises the validity of anger. There's no shame in it. One isn't more virtuous by hiding it or denying it. It can be legitimate. Also I like what you say comparing it to alcohol. In my opinion, awareness of anger's relationships with our interior and exterior life is a necessary step to maturity.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

We don't want to make Daddy angry, do we?  We know why Daddy gets angry, don't we?  It is better to make Daddy happy than angry, isn't it, Sweetie?

That is the most manipulative and terrible thing I have heard all day.

When are you going to take accountability for your own response and stop blaming explosive behavior on 2 year olds? That is traumatizing for them, and you are making them think your lack of control is due to them.  “It’s all your fault - evil little bastards!”  Even if you aren’t saying it quite like that, I promise that is what they hear.  That is so toxic!  Toxic shame is being heaped upon their innocent little hearts that will haunt you and them as they get older.   Please, please read Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw and save yourself and your children a world of hurt.

Edited November 1, 2019 by pogi

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is worth noting that this is not what we think of when we think of someone being sharp with someone. It means to reprove quickly. Not necessarily quickly right after the event though that is sometimes appropriate and sometimes we need to think first but it means make the reproof as quick as we can. Don’t linger over it, bring it up endlessly, or harp on it. I think of Alma and Corianton. Say what has to be said, offer counsel to help, and then love them more.

I am terrible at this.

I can say I have seen reproofs without scriptural sharpness and delivered in anger destroy families. I have seen an older teen screw up badly and come to their parents for help to be met with nothing but anger and “how could you?” venting. The teen left home and as far as I know never went back.

God alone seems able to display a kind of holy anger or indignation. A controlled response that operates without malice. I am not convinced humans are capable of that while in fallen flesh.

Anger often accompanies the realization of an injustice but I have my doubts the anger led to any correction that followed. Anger is like hate. There are very few things the emotion should be aimed at.

Have you read my signature lately?  I hate sin.  All kinds.  I actually abhor it.  And the things that make me angry are usually, if not always, related to some kind of sin.  

When I get angry at someone it is usually because I realize they know better than to do something like that.  If I thought they didn't know any better I might not even be upset with them, and instead just try to teach them how to behave a little better.  In whatever way I thought would work best, considering the matter in prayer.  

Sin is so terrible because it is never done in ignorance.  You have to know it is wrong and then do it anyway.  Nobody can sin in ignorance.  That's bad enough in itself but I don't go out trying to stop people from sinning, generally.  I know the world is filled with people who sin but I don't usually think much about it until they come into my domain and do something to sin against me.  I still try to help people when I see them doing something that isn't good for them to do, and I will try to stop someone from sinning if their sin involves some kind of crime, but generally I don't get angry with people until I see them sinning against me  Disrespecting me or my home or my property or someone else in my family.  Intentionally doing something to try to offend me.

I know, I know.  I should probably turn the other cheek, sometimes, but I'm talking about what makes me angry. I try to not get angry, even though I can't usually help getting at least a little upset, and when I show my anger I try to be nice again as soon as I can.

[Meadowchik]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 

Oops. Sorry!

 

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Only to the extent that she has affected my emotions.  I teach my children specifics so they can understand what is going on.  To the extent that they have any power, they know it is better to make me happy than to make me angry, so if one of my children makes me angry they know they were the one who made me angry, which is what I tell them when they make me angry.  When I see them do something that I know is very bad, I tell them that their actions are bad, very bad, and that their actions have caused me to be angry at them.  They know I'm not angry at them because of something someone else did.  They know I would rather be happy than angry, and that they can do things to make me happy, too.  So it is their choice, their actions, to the extent that they have any power to affect how another person feels.   It's not like they have to wonder, Hmm, I wonder why Daddy is angry????  I tell them why and then see the connection between their actions and my response.

Btw, I don't have a daughter, yet, so a lot of this is planned parenthood rather than actual experience raising a daughter.  I plan to have millions of them, though, so the more practice I get the more perfect I expect to become.

The thing is, a child's need to be guided or corrected is not necessarily connected to whether they make their parents angry or unhappy. You are human and will likely get mad over innocent, even sweet things a child does. And that's normal and no reflection on you or your child's goodness. Parents can be tired and overworked and children can be exhausting and annoying, even when they've done absolutely nothing wrong.

Generally, as a parent, I think it's fine to be open about anger in front of children, especially if one also includes self-calming techniques in the narrative which do not put the onus on anyone else to make one angry or happy again.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Meadowchik

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is the most manipulative and terrible thing I have heard all day.

When are you going to take accountability for your own response and stop blaming explosive behavior on 2 year olds? That is traumatizing for them, and you are making them think your lack of control is due to them.  “It’s all your fault - evil little bastards!”  Even if you aren’t saying it quite like that, I promise that is what they hear.  That is so toxic!  Toxic shame is being heaped upon their innocent little hearts that will haunt you and them as they get older.   Please, please read Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw and save yourself and your children a world of hurt.

You don't get it, and I'm not even the least bit angry with you for not getting it.  And I don't think I'm even upset.   I never said anything about getting upset with a 2 year old. I know they're not old enough to know any better so they can't do anything to upset me.

Calm asked how I thought a 2 year old would respond if that 2 year old saw me getting angry.  The "Hmm" signified the 2 year old would probably have to figure out what it meant to see me get angry before realizing something like, "Dad is angry!".

If they had never seen me get angry before, how would they even know what it meant.  Then, upon realizing that me getting angry with someone is not a pleasant experience for that person who I am angry at, the 2 year old would probably think "I hope he never gets mad at me".

Next time just ask me what I mean instead of thinking I'm some mean old ogre who likes to go around getting angry at 2 year olds.  Sheesh. I would have thought you would have learned by now to know me better than that.

 

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Only to the extent that she has affected my emotions.  I teach my children specifics so they can understand what is going on.  To the extent that they have any power, they know it is better to make me happy than to make me angry, so if one of my children makes me angry they know they were the one who made me angry, which is what I tell them when they make me angry.  When I see them do something that I know is very bad, I tell them that their actions are bad, very bad, and that their actions have caused me to be angry at them.  They know I'm not angry at them because of something someone else did.  They know I would rather be happy than angry, and that they can do things to make me happy, too.  So it is their choice, their actions, to the extent that they have any power to affect how another person feels.   It's not like they have to wonder, Hmm, I wonder why Daddy is angry????  I tell them why and then see the connection between their actions and my response.

Btw, I don't have a daughter, yet, so a lot of this is planned parenthood rather than actual experience raising a daughter.  I plan to have millions of them, though, so the more practice I get the more perfect I expect to become.

What is wrong with you?

That is horrifying. You make discipline all about you and you sound like your ideal parenting style is that of a serial abuser.

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You don't get it, and I'm not even the least bit angry with you for not getting it.  And I don't think I'm even upset.   I never said anything about getting upset with a 2 year old. I know they're not old enough to know any better so they can't do anything to upset me.

Calm asked how I thought a 2 year old would respond if that 2 year old saw me getting angry.  The "Hmm" signified the 2 year old would probably have to figure out what it meant to see me get angry before realizing something like, "Dad is angry!".

If they had never seen me get angry before, how would they even know what it meant.  Then, upon realizing that me getting angry with someone is not a pleasant experience for that person who I am angry at, the 2 year old would probably think "I hope he never gets mad at me".

Next time just ask me what I mean instead of thinking I'm some mean old ogre who likes to go around getting angry at 2 year olds.  Sheesh. I would have thought you would have learned by now to know me better than that.

Pro tip: With the exception of Shrek that is exactly how mean old ogres and abusers think.

Your approach to discipline is to convince them to choose the right because otherwise dad will be angry and make scary faces and look threatening. The child will think your love is contingent on their behavior so they will cover up their mistakes and lie about them if needed. When they are taught about a Heavenly Father they will imagine a tyrant one misdeed away from exploding. Please reconsider or do not have children.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

When are you going to take accountability for your own response and stop blaming explosive behavior on 2 year olds?

The example we were talking about was a two year old witnessing anger directed at the mother just in case you might look at it differently, blaming anger on the adult rather than the child. It doesn’t make a difference to me because I don’t think it makes a difference to the kid at that age plus the mother is no more responsible for the anger than the observing kid, imo. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Ahab said:

Are these rhetorical questions or do you really not know?

In the real world, there are actually people who claim that anger is bad, thus finding fault with both God and little children.  Moreover, if children (and animals) are innocent, can they be faulted for being angry?  Your answer to Calm's question about being angry with children also applies:  In the real world, children discover right away that anger is normal.  They get angry and so do their parents and siblings.  Is it thus a normal and acceptable thing to be angry?  What are the limits?  Do children learn that striking someone is O.K. when there is anger?  Of course I have my own answers to those questions.  However, the answers will differ among various POVs.  Who is correct?