Anger

[MustardSeed]

This was shared on the modesty thread by Seeking Understanding:

A cunning part of [Satan’s] strategy is to dissociate anger from agency, making us believe that we are victims of an emotion that we cannot control.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1998/04/agency-and-anger?lang=eng

It is my opinion that parts of this are accurate but that the premise is misleading.

i believe anger is a useful indicator of injustice. 

The only thing that needs be controlled is behavior imo. And if anger is pervasive, it can be challenged with a reframe.

imo it’s harmful to suggest anger itself (the emotion) is sinful. 

Most of his references in the article speak to behaviors and thoughts. Which is fine, imo, but it bothers me when people say anger is wrong. It’s not. Imo we need not control (eliminate?) anger. It’s our behavior and thought we need to manage. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by MustardSeed

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This was shared on the modesty thread by Seeking Understanding:

A cunning part of [Satan’s] strategy is to dissociate anger from agency, making us believe that we are victims of an emotion that we cannot control.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1998/04/agency-and-anger?lang=eng

It is my opinion that parts of this are accurate but that the premise is misleading.

i believe anger is a useful indicator of injustice. 

The only thing that needs be controlled is behavior imo. And if anger is pervasive, it can be challenged with a reframe.

imo it’s harmful to suggest anger itself (the emotion) is sinful. 

Most of his references in the article speak to behaviors and thoughts. 

Hmm. This may lead to an interesting discussion. I have always considered anger to be a symptom of selfishness, and selfishness is generally sinful. We are not loving our neighbor as ourselves out of selfishness. We get angry when we are concerned about ourselves more than others. This is probably the reason Satan is who he is. He rebelled in anger - not wanting to lower himself to do things God's way. So, he has been ever angry about being denied.

I am by no means saying I never get angry. The Savior got angry at the money changers, but it was not for selfish reasons, but because their practices were offensive to the Father. So, that particular instance may speak to your indicator of injustice. I have learned that I am weak. I have aspirations, and ideas of what justice should look like, and dang it, I can get fed up, if things don't go that way. But overall, that is not God's way. Did our Savior experience justice up on the tree? No, but He agreed to take on the rules of justice for our sakes, so that made it just. God's way is patience and long-suffering even in the face of injustice. So, anger might be an indicator of whether injustice is occurring or it may not. If we are getting angry for selfish reasons, it is an indicator of sin I think. What we think of as injustice is usually what our Savior expected us to endure in order to follow Him. I'll say that much to start off this conversation.

[alter idem]

48 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This was shared on the modesty thread by Seeking Understanding:

A cunning part of [Satan’s] strategy is to dissociate anger from agency, making us believe that we are victims of an emotion that we cannot control.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1998/04/agency-and-anger?lang=eng

It is my opinion that parts of this are accurate but that the premise is misleading.

i believe anger is a useful indicator of injustice. 

The only thing that needs be controlled is behavior imo. And if anger is pervasive, it can be challenged with a reframe.

imo it’s harmful to suggest anger itself (the emotion) is sinful. 

Most of his references in the article speak to behaviors and thoughts. Which is fine, imo, but it bothers me when people say anger is wrong. It’s not. Imo we need not control (eliminate?) anger. It’s our behavior and thought we need to manage. 

Jesus warned us in 3 Nephi 12:22  “but I say unto you, 'That whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment.”  'Without a cause' is not found in the Book of Mormon version.  A warning from the Lord is something important, IMO.  I think anger is an emotion which should be kept in check and not indulged.

[Meadowchik]

Emotions are imo morally neutral, but are not without meaning. Anger, for instance, is in my opinion an indicator of injustice, as Mustard seed already stated, or our own struggle with something.

In both cases, it can be useful:

Anger over injustice can motivate action to correct justice. It can help us have the strength to work towards it.

Anger in a difficult moment can alert us to a struggle. That moment of reflection can be enlightening. The other night my daughters were both angry at each other. It frustrated me and I was briefly angry, but seeing no pervasive injustice in the disagreement, I recognised that 1) I was tired, 2) They had miscommunicated, leading to conflict, and 3) One daughter has been dealing with burnout-level anxiety at school. Acknowledging my own fatigue helped me also empathize with their feelings. I was able to have a long conversation with the latter daughter, listen to her, and help her make a plan and feel better. So, responding to the anger of all three of us, instead of censuring, helped me meet the most urgent needs in that moment.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Meadowchik

[MustardSeed]

8 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Jesus warned us in 3 Nephi 12:22  “but I say unto you, 'That whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment.”  'Without a cause' is not found in the Book of Mormon version.  A warning from the Lord is something important, IMO.  I think anger is an emotion which should be kept in check and not indulged.

I honestly don’t know that this scripture refers to the emotion as opposed to behavior. 

[Maestrophil]

I have always been taught that anger is not a primary emotion - but, rather a secondary one.  Meaning it stems from some other more primary feeling.  For example - I may be sad, or in some way threatened by something, and then the resulting defensive secondary emotion is to be angry.  Because of that, I always use anger in myself to ask what I am really feeling.  

With that in mind, or rather because of that - I am rarely angry, and when I am, I quickly dismiss it in favor of the underlying emotion and then address that.  For instance, anger over injustices I have felt often come from me feeling threatened in my view of what is right and wrong. 

Meadowchik's example illustrates this well - it was the underlying emotions that needed to be dealt with rather than simply dismissing the anger.  Anger is rarely, if ever useful IMO other than as an indicator of other, deeper feelings.  

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

. Acknowledging my own fatigue helped me also empathize with their feelings. I was able to have a long conversation with the latter daughter, listen to her, and help her make a plan and feel better. So, responding to the anger of all three of us, instead of censuring, helped me meet the most urgent needs in that moment.

 

[Maestrophil]

12 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Jesus warned us in 3 Nephi 12:22  “but I say unto you, 'That whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment.”  'Without a cause' is not found in the Book of Mormon version.  A warning from the Lord is something important, IMO.  I think anger is an emotion which should be kept in check and not indulged.

I agree

[MustardSeed]

Have you ever met someone who could use a little more anger in their lives? Someone who has no sense of boundaries, who believes they are to be used and abused? 

 

[Meadowchik]

12 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Have you ever met someone who could use a little more anger in their lives? Someone who has no sense of boundaries, who believes they are to be used and abused? 

 

I think I do, at least someone who used to be that way, but has since become healthier. This person began by acknowledging their own worth, through the conviction of the Gospel, and then built on that to insist on better treatment of themselves. 

[Ahab]

I think there is a difference between being "upset" and being "angry".  I get upset when things don't go as I think they should, and I sometimes show my "frustration" that is a result of my feeling upset, but I rarely get what I understand "angry" to be.

It's difficult to describe the difference in words but I think you would see the difference if you saw how I get and appear when I feel upset, vs how I appear when I get angry.  I have been angry before and I do not look calm when I am angry, but I usually am calm when I am upset.

When I get upset I still have a forgiving attitude, still giving people the benefit of the doubt, thinking they probably didn't intend to upset me or to be inconsiderate or insensitive in their actions

On the other hand, when I get angry, I want those who caused me to get angry to suffer in some way.  I want them to realize they made a mistake by doing whatever they did that caused me to get angry and I want them to feel afraid to ever do anything like that again.

For anyone who may be thinking that we are always in control of our emotions and nobody can make us feel anything in any way unless we choose to give in to their influence, that's not really the way it works, in my experience, when I get angry.  At least not when I have already seen what they have done which caused me to get angry. For me to get angry someone has to do something so blatantly bad, that I have then seen them do, that it just spontaneously results in me doing something to try to get them to stop it.  I do try to not get angry, but sometimes a situation seems to demand that much fervor.  Something that is difficult to ignore because it doesn't feel right to try to just ignore it.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Ahab

[LoudmouthMormon]

Emotions spring from our beliefs.  When we believe truth, we'll occasionally have righteous anger.  When we believe crap (and the human race is well versed in believing crap), we'll occasionally have unrighteous anger. 

Like others are saying, emotions are morally neutral, but the behaviors that we let spring from them are not.  This is true whether our anger is righteous or unrighteous.

[Bernard Gui]

39 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think there is a difference between being "upset" and being "angry".  I get upset when things don't go as I think they should, and I sometimes show my "frustration" that is a result of my feeling upset, but I rarely get what I understand "angry" to be.

It's difficult to describe the difference in words but I think you would see the difference if you saw how I get and appear when I feel upset, vs how I appear when I get angry.  I have been angry before and I do not look calm when I am angry, but I usually am calm when I am upset.

When I get upset I still have a forgiving attitude, still giving people the benefit of the doubt, thinking they probably didn't intend to upset me or to be inconsiderate or insensitive in their actions

On the other hand, when I get angry, I want those who caused me to get angry to suffer in some way.  I want them to realize they made a mistake by doing whatever they did that caused me to get angry and I want them to feel afraid to ever do anything like that again.

For anyone who may be thinking that we are always in control of our emotions and nobody can make us feel anything in any way unless we choose to give in to their influence, that's not really the way it works, in my experience, when I get angry.  At least not when I have already seen what they have done which caused me to get angry. For me to get angry someone has to do something so blatantly bad, that I have then seen them do, that it just spontaneously results in me doing something to try to get them to stop it.

The Lord taught this in 3 Nephi 11:

Quote

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

Given our worldly circumstances, is this a state we hope for but don’t always attain, like his command to be perfect?

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The Lord taught this in 3 Nephi 11:

 

He also taught this in D&C 121: 

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

 

After I get angry I try to be nice again as soon as I can.

[Maestrophil]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Have you ever met someone who could use a little more anger in their lives? Someone who has no sense of boundaries, who believes they are to be used and abused? 

 

Do you need anger to have a backbone? - resolve, yes, but it doesn't have to be motivated or expressed as anger. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Maestrophil

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Do you need anger to have a backbone? - resolve, yes, but it doesn't have to be motivated or expressed as anger. 

A strong and firm NO! is sometimes necessary to let those who would take unfair advantage of you know that they can't just keep asking you for something until you will (they hope) eventually give in.

Saying it nicely doesn't seem to have the same effect, but I do try to be nice again soon after I express my anger.

[MustardSeed]

7 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Do you need anger to have a backbone? - resolve, yes, but it doesn't have to be motivated or expressed as anger. 

This may be a semantics led thread more than anything. 

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

This may be a semantics led thread more than anything. 

the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning.

I think we should try to say what we mean and mean what we say.

[rpn]

Pretty sure anger is identified as a secondary emotion by psychologists trained in the issue.   It arises out of frustration or pain.

[Bernard Gui]

29 minutes ago, Ahab said:

He also taught this in D&C 121: 

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

 

After I get angry I try to be nice again as soon as I can.

So I’m thinking about the fierce anger mutually expressed in the correspondence between Moroni and Ammoron in Alma 54, each justifying it based on the actions and beliefs of their opponents. Both claimed their anger was righteous.

And then there is the  magnanimity and patience of Mormon and Moroni during their final struggle.

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

So I’m thinking about the fierce anger mutually expressed in the corresponde between Moroni and Ammoron in Alma 54, each justifying it based on the actions and beliefs of their opponents. Both claimed their anger was righteous. 

And the magnanimity and patience of the Mormon and Moroni during the final struggle.

It is nice when there is a way to resolve anger issues, and you can see how to do it.  I wonder if Moroni had a better sense of how he could help Ammoron resolve his anger issues after reading his letter?  I doubt if Ammoron realized he didn't know what had actually happened.

When I get angry with someone for something bad I see them doing my main desire is that they just stop doing whatever it is or was that made me angry.  I just want all of that bad stuff to stop.  And if I think I can help to stop it I am usually willing to do what I can to stop it.

[Bernard Gui]

24 minutes ago, Ahab said:

A strong and firm NO! is sometimes necessary to let those who would take unfair advantage of you know that they can't just keep asking you for something until you will (they hope) eventually give in.

Saying it nicely doesn't seem to have the same effect, but I do try to be nice again soon after I express my anger.

Addiction recovery teaches us to set boundaries of behavior that we will not tolerate. Enforcing them with anger is counterproductive. For example, it is common to react with anger when one discovers that a loved one is in addiction. The anger is natural and understandable, but it only exacerbates the situation. We have to find a better response. One friend talked about the anger his addicted child expressed to him on a regular basis and that he reflected back in their arguments. He eventually learned to respond with, “Look. I am working on my own recovery, and this is not healthy for me. We can talk when you are more in control of your feelings,” and then walk away. 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[MustardSeed]

24 minutes ago, Ahab said:

the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning.

I think we should try to say what we mean and mean what we say.

I mean it when I say your linguistics lesson was so very extra. 

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

It is nice when there is a way to resolve anger issues, and you can see how to do it.  I wonder if Moroni had a better sense of how he could help Ammoron resolve his anger issues after reading his letter?  I doubt if Ammoron realized he didn't know what had actually happened.

When I get angry with someone for something bad I see them doing my main desire is that they just stop doing whatever it is or was that made me angry.  I just want all of that bad stuff to stop.  And if I think I can help to stop it I am usually willing to do what I can to stop it.

Moroni didn’t give Ammoron much wriggle room.

Quote

12 And behold, if ye do not this, I will come against you with my armies; yea, even I will arm my women and my children, and I will come against you, and I will follow you even into your own land, which is the land of our first inheritance; yea, and it shall be blood for blood, yea, life for life; and I will give you battle even until you are destroyed from off the face of the earth.
13 Behold, I am in my anger, and also my people; ye have sought to murder us, and we have only sought to defend ourselves. But behold, if ye seek to destroy us more we will seek to destroy you; yea, and we will seek our land, the land of our first inheritance.

I haven’t experienced this level of anger. Well, there was that time when the guy in the big black Ford pickup tailgated me and then roared past me in the 25 mph zone of our residential street.....🤯

Edited November 1, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Addiction recovery teaches us to set boundaries of behavior that we will not tolerate.

Me not being able to tolerate something is what causes me to get angry.  I think we all have boundaries we do not want people to cross.

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Enforcing them with anger is counterproductive.

I see an expression of anger as a siren going off to let someone know they have crossed a line on someone's boundary. If I think it's unintentional I tend to only get upset rather than angry but when I can see that it is an intentional, and a bad thing, I tend to get angry about it.

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

For example, it is common to react with anger when one discovers that a loved one is in addiction. The anger only exacerbates the situation. When one friend talked about the anger his addicted child expressed to him on a regular basis and that he reflected back in their arguments, he eventually learned to respond with, “Look. I am working on my own recovery, and this is not healthy for me. We can talk when you are more in control of your feelings,” and then walk away. 

I would appreciate hearing that.  It would be good for me to know they are working on overcoming their addition rather than giving into it without trying to recover.  As I said, my goal when I get angry is to get whatever causes me to get angry to stop, and if they're trying to stop it that is all I need to hear.  Plus it also helps me to hear that they realize it is a problem, too.

[MustardSeed]

My most effective expression of anger has been to calmly say “what just happened has me angry, and xyz is what I would like to see happen.”

Even more effective is when I can understand the vulnerability behind the anger,like has been alluded to here.  But I personally disagree that anger is secondary.  It’s real, it’s primal, and though usually accompanied, it’s as legit as any other emotion. Imo.  I don’t think there is anything but professional opinion to refute mine- ?