stemelbow Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Was that part of his message? Or is that your fantasy? Not a fantasy at all. I've seen many of the church's leaders give leading messages about how they interact with God, leaving membership to play off the ambiguity and exalt these leaders
stemelbow Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I said the following in a Facebook post: I hope we occasionally go deeper than generalities and pray for the country’s leaders specifically and individually, by name and position or office. It’s less easy to hate someone if you are praying for him or her. Of course, the implication of that is becoming better acquainted with government and political affairs, not just to come to know the leaders better, but to more thoroughly understand the challenges they face and the attitudes with which they approach their duties. Perhaps our prayers would thus be more earnest and efficacious. Do our prayers effect the determinations of God? That is to say if the political issues we see today is GOd's effort to bring about the end of days, as they say, then what do prayers have to do with it? Perhaps they only are effective in that they save the prayer giver? A God who waits for some of hte people to start to name specific individuals to show they care, seems more beholden to these imperfect people and less determined to accomplish his will, it seems to me.
MustardSeed Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yes, but what is the "crossroad" of which he spoke? Is he alluding to some very crucial change in the offing? And why is he including the nations of the earth? He said that he was delivering a "warning." Sounds ominous to me. I don’t believe that’s how this works- predictions of specific events. I might be wrong but I don’t believe that at all.
Ahab Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yes, but what is the "crossroad" of which he spoke? A crossroad is an intersection of 2 or more paths. I would say only one path is the good path to be on while the other(s) are not as good as that one. We have lots of options but in essence only one is good and the rest are not that good. Quote Is he alluding to some very crucial change in the offing? Not necessarily a change if we can stay on the same path, somehow. But some might change paths and not take a path that is the best one to take. Quote And why is he including the nations of the earth? Nations is another way of saying people. He's talking about everybody, I think. Quote He said that he was delivering a "warning." Sounds ominous to me. Yeah, well, we don';t usually say Congratulations! when somebody is making a bad choice which results in getting on a bad path. But who knows, with some of the changes coming, some people may choose to do that. Edited October 21, 2019 by Ahab
ksfisher Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: When I first saw this it made me think of the many members outside of America. Does it hurt that the church seems to focus mostly on the USA? I remember reading posts on this board in the past where this was the feeling. He was speaking to a regional conference in the USA, not to all the saints in the world. If he was in Nigeria or Australia or Mexico he might mention praying for the government of that country. I wouldn't be so fast to read too much into things. 4
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted October 21, 2019 Popular Post Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Not a fantasy at all. I've seen many of the church's leaders give leading messages about how they interact with God, leaving membership to play off the ambiguity and exalt these leaders In other words, you are attributing to him ignoble motives by making claims that he did not make. 5
Robert F. Smith Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 54 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: I don’t believe that’s how this works- predictions of specific events. I might be wrong but I don’t believe that at all. This world has been at major crossroads before, and sometimes very bad choices were made by nation-states. Things may quickly be coming to a head right now, and he may be warning us to exercise care in our decision-making. 1
Tacenda Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ahab said: When you're praying you're talking to God, so what are you talking to God about in that regard? You're not talking to other people who would make good leaders while asking them to step up. You're talking to God. so what are you asking God to do to help good leaders step up? What do you think God can do to help good leaders step up? Heck, I remember praying years for our leaders in the church, including our nation's leaders, come to think of it I remember praying for the world leaders as well. I guess you're saying this doesn't really work? Then what are we to pray for Ahab? Edited October 21, 2019 by Tacenda
RevTestament Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 5 hours ago, Tacenda said: When I first saw this it made me think of the many members outside of America. Does it hurt that the church seems to focus mostly on the USA? I remember reading posts on this board in the past where this was the feeling. Although he did specifically say the nations, I believe prayer for the nations which have traditionally been Christian is most needed - and those would be the nations of Europe and the Americas. These nations were traditionally Christian, but have been turning away from Christ - especially in Europe. Those who once had the truth but reject it are in a worse state than those who have not yet received it. Thus, they are in most need of prayer.
stemelbow Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: In other words, you are attributing to him ignoble motives by making claims that he did not make. I'm asking a question as per a thought exercise. I dont know motives but questioning motives of those with power feels like an appropriate move, atleast from time to time. The.phrase quoted enables questions
Ahab Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 19 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I'm asking a question as per a thought exercise. I dont know motives but questioning motives of those with power feels like an appropriate move, atleast from time to time. The.phrase quoted enables questions I don't know what we would do without your strategy around here, stemelbow. You questions enabler, you.
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted October 21, 2019 Popular Post Posted October 21, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, stemelbow said: Do our prayers effect the determinations of God? That is to say if the political issues we see today is GOd's effort to bring about the end of days, as they say, then what do prayers have to do with it? Perhaps they only are effective in that they save the prayer giver? A God who waits for some of hte people to start to name specific individuals to show they care, seems more beholden to these imperfect people and less determined to accomplish his will, it seems to me. First, <effect> does not mean the same thing as <affect>. Second, prayer is at its core a process of unification whereby the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into unity. Our prayers are efficacious when we ascertain through divine inspiration what it is we should seek from the Father and then pray earnestly and unceasingly for that thing. When one of the Lord’s prophets, seers and revelators, acting with inspiration and under the authority of his calling, counsels me to pray for a thing, and the Spirit bears witness to me he has taught with inspiration, much of the heavy lifting has been done. It remains for me to go ahead and pray earnestly for that thing, whatever it is. Edited October 21, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 5
Ahab Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: When one of the Lord’s prophets, seers and revelators, acting with inspiration and under the authority of his calling, counsels me to pray for a thing, and the Spirit bears witness to me he has taught with inspiration, much of the heavy lifting has been done. It remains for me to go ahead and pray earnestly for that thing, whatever it is. So what are you going to pray for, or what are you praying for, in regards to the nations of the world? What would you like our Father to do to help everyone on this planet? Anything that he isn't already doing? I still haven't quite figured this out for myself, so I'm still waiting for more inspiration to know what I should be praying for, exactly. Most of the thoughts I get when I think about praying for the world is what the world needs to do to get help from our Father in heaven, rather than something our Father would do without them asking for help. I feel and envision our Father waiting for his children to receive counsel from him and then act on the counsel he gives them, and us. Without us asking for ourselves he may give us a good idea or two but if we're not seeking it or willing to act on it, what else can he do? Father, please help all of us to listen to you and receive the good ideas you give us. I can already tell though that while some people will pay attention and try to please him, others will act as if God isn't saying anything to them.
stemelbow Posted October 21, 2019 Posted October 21, 2019 57 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: First, <effect> does not mean the same thing as <affect>. Lol. Honestly caught myself on this before I hit send but thought it'd be fun to see you correct me. Thanks I always get those mixed up. 57 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Second, prayer is at its core a process of unification whereby the will of the Father and the will of the child are brought into unity. Our prayers are efficacious when we ascertain through divine inspiration what it is we should seek from the Father and then pray earnestly and unceasingly for that thing. When one of the Lord’s prophets, seers and revelators, acting with inspiration and under the authority of his calling, counsels me to pray for a thing, and the Spirit bears witness to me he has taught with inspiration, much of the heavy lifting has been done. It remains for me to go ahead and pray earnestly for that thing, whatever it is. Why weren't you already paying for the country a requested?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Ahab said: So what are you going to pray for, or what are you praying for, in regards to the nations of the world? What would you like our Father to do to help everyone on this planet? Anything that he isn't already doing? I still haven't quite figured this out for myself, so I'm still waiting for more inspiration to know what I should be praying for, exactly. Most of the thoughts I get when I think about praying for the world is what the world needs to do to get help from our Father in heaven, rather than something our Father would do without them asking for help. I feel and envision our Father waiting for his children to receive counsel from him and then act on the counsel he gives them, and us. Without us asking for ourselves he may give us a good idea or two but if we're not seeking it or willing to act on it, what else can he do? Father, please help all of us to listen to you and receive the good ideas you give us. I can already tell though that while some people will pay attention and try to please him, others will act as if God isn't saying anything to them. For now, I am praying for the health and well-being of government leaders, that they can and will govern with wisdom, that they will be inspired to do right and be just, and that His purposes will be brought about through their efforts. If I discern that one of those leaders is pursuing a course that is proper and right, I will pray that the leader will be successful in his efforts on that course.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Lol. Honestly caught myself on this before I hit send but thought it'd be fun to see you correct me. Thanks I always get those mixed up. Why weren't you already paying for the country a requested? Sometimes I forget things and need to be reminded. Or I, like anyone else, might get weighed down by the constant drumbeat of negativity on the public square and need the assurance that it is proper and right to pray for the leaders of the nation. Edited October 22, 2019 by Scott Lloyd
Storm Rider Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, Tacenda said: I think it's the division that has been created by hate speech by our own president, it only fuels the extreme right to be open with their white supremacy and all the other problems, adding in the immigration problems. And now our president stirring up trouble in the middle east, may spell 3rd world war, who knows. It just feels like we are at an unrest right now. This always makes me laugh when I read it, "...hate speech by our own president". It is comical and so outrageously hypocritical. President Trump is the least presidential individual we have had in our day by a long shot; however, no one has been hated more, hounded more by an aggressive press, and castigated so completely by the Left as President Trump. It is not even a contest. The Left is so full of hate they cannot see straight; talk straight; or hide their utter hatred for the man. Who gets tagged with the hate label? Trump rather than the blatant haters on the Left. Edited October 22, 2019 by Storm Rider 2
bsjkki Posted October 22, 2019 Author Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) I think it would be nice to avoid the left/right debate in this thread unless it is to suggest we could pray to heal the divide in our country. Can’t we all agree our country’s leaders need our prayers? Edited October 22, 2019 by bsjkki 4
Robert F. Smith Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 5 hours ago, stemelbow said: I'm asking a question as per a thought exercise. I dont know motives but questioning motives of those with power feels like an appropriate move, atleast from time to time. The.phrase quoted enables questions So anyone who makes any sort of highly moral statement is automatically suspect of being a hypocrite, including Jesus Christ himself? So Jesus Christ is really no different than Satan?
Tacenda Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, bsjkki said: I think it would be nice to avoid the left/right debate in this thread unless it is to suggest we could pray to heal the divide in our country. Can’t we all agree our countries leaders need our prayers? My bad. 🙁 Edited October 22, 2019 by Tacenda
sunstoned Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 9 hours ago, Ahab said: I'm willing to pray to God for our nation but I'm wondering what I should pray for. That more and more people will somehow be able to open their eyes to see how wickedness isn't good and doesn't lead to happiness? I already know God will help everyone to see that as long as they pray to him for help but what am I supposed to say to God to have him help people to know they should pray for his help to see that? Everyone has agency, the freedom to choose for themselves what they will do or even want to do, and God isn't going to make other people start praying to him. So what can God do about that situation? It's everyone else's decision to pray to him, if they want to pray to him, and if they don't want to pray to him what can he do? Give them more to pray about, maybe? Make things so bad that they will turn to him out of desperation? God doesn't work that way, as far as I know. Evil and bad things are caused by people who do bad and evil things. God isn't the one who causes the problems. It's a dilemma, as I see it. What people need is for God to help them see how they can make their own lives better, but God isn't going to make them see that. They have to ask God to help them and if people want to do bad and evil things instead, ignoring or not even seeking help from God, I don't see much that God can do about it. I know what I am praying for. I pray that people will once again come together and want the best for our nation. I pay that the rule of law will once again be restored. 1
teddyaware Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, bsjkki said: I think it would be nice to avoid the left/right debate in this thread unless it is to suggest we could pray to heal the divide in our country. Can’t we all agree our countries leaders need our prayers? In consideration of the fact that the Lord declares he established the Constitution of the United States through the instrumentality of wise men whom he raised up for that very purpose, and that he also declares our divinely inspired Constitutional form of government is the only governmental system he justifies for the governing of “all flesh,” would a debate between those who want to destroy the Constitution and those who seek to preserve our Constitutional system of individual rights and limited government be considered acceptable? Or would such a debate be deemed too political even though it’s the Lord of Heaven himself who is the ultimate author of the Constitution? And isn’t it quite likely that Elder Ballard’s warning is that we’re rapidly approaching that prophesied moment in history when the Constitution will hang by a single thread. And isn’t it also likely that the fervent prayers of the Latter-Day Saints will be one of the ways that the saints will fulfill the prophecy that they will rescue the Constitution from the very verge of destruction? 1
OGHoosier Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 27 minutes ago, teddyaware said: In consideration of the fact that the Lord declares he established the Constitution of the United States through the instrumentality of wise men whom he raised up for that very purpose, and that he also declares our divinely inspired Constitutional form of government is the only governmental system he justifies for the governing of “all flesh,” would a debate between those who want to destroy the Constitution and those who seek to preserve our Constitutional system of individual rights and limited government be considered acceptable? Or would such a debate be deemed too political even though it’s the Lord of Heaven himself who is the ultimate author of the Constitution? And isn’t it quite likely that Elder Ballard’s warning is that we’re rapidly approaching that prophesied moment in history when the Constitution will hang by a single thread. And isn’t it also likely that the fervent prayers of the Latter-Day Saints will be one of the ways that the saints will fulfill the prophecy that they will rescue the Constitution from the very verge of destruction? I don't know about other locations, but the "Constitution hanging by a single thread" language is found in the alleged White Horse Prophecy, as is the statement that the elders of Israel will be the ones to save the Constitution from destruction. The White Horse Prophecy has always been of questionable provenance and the Church does not accept it as doctrinal, as explained here. If there are other, corroborating prophetic statements, that would be another thing, and I would like to learn of them. However, as it stands I think that particular prophecy is not only non-doctrinal, it's not even particularly well-attested as General Authority opinion.
MustardSeed Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: This world has been at major crossroads before, and sometimes very bad choices were made by nation-states. Things may quickly be coming to a head right now, and he may be warning us to exercise care in our decision-making. Yes. I agree- and that seems like common sense, prudent strategy more than necessarily a specific foreboding about something he knows or that God warned him about that he’s hinting at. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 5 hours ago, OGHoosier said: I don't know about other locations, but the "Constitution hanging by a single thread" language is found in the alleged White Horse Prophecy, as is the statement that the elders of Israel will be the ones to save the Constitution from destruction. The White Horse Prophecy has always been of questionable provenance and the Church does not accept it as doctrinal, as explained here. If there are other, corroborating prophetic statements, that would be another thing, and I would like to learn of them. However, as it stands I think that particular prophecy is not only non-doctrinal, it's not even particularly well-attested as General Authority opinion. You are right about the alleged “hang by a thread” prophecy. The Lord’s endorsement of the principles in the U.S. Constitution, however, are in the Doctrine and Covenants. 1
Recommended Posts