The Nehor Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 This is all I can muster for many of the leaders these days: 21 hours ago, stemelbow said: Do our prayers effect the determinations of God? That is to say if the political issues we see today is GOd's effort to bring about the end of days, as they say, then what do prayers have to do with it? Perhaps they only are effective in that they save the prayer giver? A God who waits for some of hte people to start to name specific individuals to show they care, seems more beholden to these imperfect people and less determined to accomplish his will, it seems to me. Yes, prayer changes the way God acts. In Christ’s visit to the Nephites it was time for Him to go and He saw they wanted Him to stay so He did and healed them. This is a fallen world. There are rules here even God will not break because it would ruin mortality. Using the logic that God would have done it anyways ignores the nature of this world and the bounds which have been set as part of this testing. God lets us influence creation through prayer. If God allows us to change reality through our actions why not through prayer as well? This does not mean God who sees the end from the beginning changes His mind. Instead it suggests that our prayers were factored in like all other conditions from the beginning. It is not a plan to thwart the End of Days either. There is a weird cult of fatalism amongst some in the church where they seem to be abdicating everything to Satan because that is how it must be but the scriptures talk of the devil getting power and the Saints getting power. It is still our job to check the evils of our day and heal and bind up the wounds of the spiritual casualties of the conflict as best we can. 3
ksfisher Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, The Nehor said: There is a weird cult of fatalism amongst some in the church The first rule of Weird Cult of Fatalism in the church is...
Popular Post The Nehor Posted October 22, 2019 Popular Post Posted October 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, ksfisher said: The first rule of Weird Cult of Fatalism in the church is... 6
nuclearfuels Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 12:11 AM, bsjkki said: At a regional conference, Elder Ballard requested prayers for the nation. “As an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, I have a solemn duty to face the Lord and deliver his message,” said President Ballard. “His words often include words of encouragement and expressions of love. They also include words of warning.” America and the nations of the Earth, as in times past, “are at another crossroad,” he said. “Let it begin today that we take leadership and reach out in our own prayers and encourage our neighbors, our friends, our families … to pray for this country that we all love much.” https://www.deseret.com/2019/10/20/20924161/lds-church-mormon-m-russell-ballard Paul asked the same thing in 1 Timothy (50 AD-ish), and similar statements are in Alma chapter 10 (82 BC) and 3 Nephi 6 (26 - 30 AD). Makes me wonder if today we are as close to the Savior's return as those in Alma 10 or those in 3 Nephi 6. I'd prefer the Alma 10 timeline, if not more time.
nuclearfuels Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: 23 hours ago, stemelbow said: Do our prayers effect the determinations of God? That is to say if the political issues we see today is GOd's effort to bring about the end of days, as they say, then what do prayers have to do with it? Perhaps they only are effective in that they save the prayer giver? A God who waits for some of hte people to start to name specific individuals to show they care, seems more beholden to these imperfect people and less determined to accomplish his will, it seems to me. they only are effective in that they save the prayer giver. Rightesouness won't delay the Second COming. Wickedness won't hasten it. Bingo. Elder Ballard is trying to help all of us be able to answer at our own Judgements that we did all we could, before the world truly went to pot.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) On 10/21/2019 at 2:17 PM, Tacenda said: Heck, I remember praying years for our leaders in the church, including our nation's leaders, come to think of it I remember praying for the world leaders as well. I guess you're saying this doesn't really work? Then what are we to pray for Ahab? Sorry. Edited October 23, 2019 by Robert F. Smith
Tacenda Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Do you believe with James 5:16 that "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much"? Or is that just a lot of hooey? Do temple prayer circles have any value for the names of those on the altar? Do you believe in the intercession of the Saints? When did I say it is hooey to pray? I said just the opposite.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 22, 2019 Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: Yes, prayer changes the way God acts. In Christ’s visit to the Nephites it was time for Him to go and He saw they wanted Him to stay so He did and healed them. This is a fallen world. There are rules here even God will not break because it would ruin mortality. Using the logic that God would have done it anyways ignores the nature of this world and the bounds which have been set as part of this testing. God lets us influence creation through prayer. If God allows us to change reality through our actions why not through prayer as well? This does not mean God who sees the end from the beginning changes His mind. Instead it suggests that our prayers were factored in like all other conditions from the beginning. It is not a plan to thwart the End of Days either. There is a weird cult of fatalism amongst some in the church where they seem to be abdicating everything to Satan because that is how it must be but the scriptures talk of the devil getting power and the Saints getting power. It is still our job to check the evils of our day and heal and bind up the wounds of the spiritual casualties of the conflict as best we can. It might change the way He acts, but it doesn’t change His mind or will. Read the Bible Dictionary entry on prayer. It says that prayer is the appointed means of securing blessings for ourselves and others that God is already disposed to grant but are made conditional upon our asking for them. Blessings require some effort or work on our part, and prayer is a form of work whereby we unite our will with the will of God. Edited October 23, 2019 by Scott Lloyd 2
Robert F. Smith Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Tacenda said: When did I say it is hooey to pray? I said just the opposite. Sorry. Edited October 23, 2019 by Robert F. Smith
Tacenda Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: I asked you a question, Tacenda. If the answer is "no," then say so. Or just ignore me. Below is my quote in bold that you are responding to: Heck, I remember praying years for our leaders in the church, including our nation's leaders, come to think of it I remember praying for the world leaders as well. I guess you're saying this doesn't really work? Then what are we to pray for Ahab? Robert is there a reason that you are asking this absurd question to me? To remind you of what you question and then put it near the above quote from myself, this is "Twilight Zone" ville, to me. Your quote in bold: Do you believe with James 5:16 that "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much"? Or is that just a lot of hooey? Do temple prayer circles have any value for the names of those on the altar? Do you believe in the intercession of the Saints? And to your absurd question, in context to what my quote was to @Ahab...of course I believe James 5:16, it's exactly what I was doing! I sense that you misread my quote to Ahab. Ahab was struggling with praying for help or something, not sure. Hopefully he'll pipe up. Absurd, only if you understand I'm all for prayer for help for our leaders! Edited October 23, 2019 by Tacenda
Robert F. Smith Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Below is my quote that you are responding to: Heck, I remember praying years for our leaders in the church, including our nation's leaders, come to think of it I remember praying for the world leaders as well. I guess you're saying this doesn't really work? Then what are we to pray for Ahab? Robert is there a reason that you are asking this absurd question to me? To remind you of what you question and then put it near the above quote from myself, this is "Twilight Zone" ville, to me. Your quote: Do you believe with James 5:16 that "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much"? Or is that just a lot of hooey? Do temple prayer circles have any value for the names of those on the altar? Do you believe in the intercession of the Saints? I did not say that you take a negative position. I merely asked a question. But, on second thought, I'll just eliminate it. Sorry, Tacenda.
Tacenda Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: I did not say that you take a negative position. I merely asked a question. But, on second thought, I'll just eliminate it. Sorry, Tacenda. I am honored to know you and many on the board, so I care why you're asking. Do you mind giving me an idea of why you're asking? And I'll admit right now my praying habits are pretty bad. But I still believe in it. If God doesn't hear my prayers maybe His angels can! And hopefully He or them can hear my silent prayers that I have all of the time. ETA: I want to reiterate, honored to know you in cyberville, haha. And you're are fine not to answer my request. Edited October 23, 2019 by Tacenda
Robert F. Smith Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 19 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I am honored to know you and many on the board, so I care why you're asking. Do you mind giving me an idea of why you're asking? And I'll admit right now my praying habits are pretty bad. But I still believe in it. If God doesn't hear my prayers maybe His angels can! And hopefully He or them can hear my silent prayers that I have all of the time. ETA: I want to reiterate, honored to know you in cyberville, haha. And you're are fine not to answer my request. Why am I not permitted to give you a rep point?
Stargazer Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 5:58 PM, MustardSeed said: Interesting, my thoughts were that this comes during a season when there is total chaos in the Middle East and in China, and in South America. Far more violent there right now than in the US. When HASN'T there been total chaos in the Middle East and elsewhere? In any case, he was addressing a audience of Americans. It would have seemed odd if he had told them pray for the leaders of Chile or Brazil. Obviously, we should wish even those leaders well, but of immediate importance to Americans, at least usually, should be America's leaders.
Stargazer Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Why am I not permitted to give you a rep point? She's "Limited". Limited folks are limited in certain ways, including in regards to rep points.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 23, 2019 Posted October 23, 2019 49 minutes ago, Stargazer said: She's "Limited". Limited folks are limited in certain ways, including in regards to rep points. Yeh, but why? Hard to imagine that Tacenda did something so horrible that she can't get rep points.
The Nehor Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 On 10/22/2019 at 5:45 PM, Scott Lloyd said: It might change the way He acts, but it doesn’t change His mind or will. Read the Bible Dictionary entry on prayer. It says that prayer is the appointed means of securing blessings for ourselves and others that God is already disposed to grant but are made conditional upon our asking for them. Blessings require some effort or work on our part, and prayer is a form of work whereby we unite our will with the will of God. Probably right. I have one quibble with it but it is probably more of a semantic disagreement since I will leave it alone.
sunstoned Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeh, but why? Hard to imagine that Tacenda did something so horrible that she can't get rep points. Agreed. 1
Stargazer Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yeh, but why? Hard to imagine that Tacenda did something so horrible that she can't get rep points. 4 hours ago, sunstoned said: Agreed. It isn't rep points, specifically. It's just part of the package deal. Someone on Limited can't start topics, either (except Social Hall? Not sure), and is also limited to a certain number of posts per day. Someone goes on limited when they have violated the board rules a number of times, but not badly enough to get banned. It happens that "Limited" seems to be a more-or-less permanent measure. So, what Tacenda did happened quite a ways in the past, and I don't remember what it was. 1
Calm Posted October 24, 2019 Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Stargazer said: It happens that "Limited" seems to be a more-or-less permanent measure There was an amnesty at one time awhile back. However, some repeated the behaviour that likely got them put on limited in the first place and not surprisingly the mods felt the same way the second time around apparently. My memory is most on limited rather than banned tended to start a lot of threads, sometimes personal or gossipy stuff. I assumed that is what got them clipped. Edited October 24, 2019 by Calm 1
Anijen Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 9:39 AM, stemelbow said: Awesome. So he's trying to continue the myth that he gets to see jesus as jesus comes by for a nighttime visit? Is he claiming to tell us jesus' important message to us or is he relying on vague allusions to make us feel confident they know something we don't? I do not mean or intend to derail this thread, but your post has caused me to ask the question why wouldn't the Lord visit the prophets and apostles? I think, if they are His prophets and apostles He would visit them, even as imperfect as they are. I do not imply it would be often, maybe even a singular time in their lives, but me personally, I do believe He does visit them and others too. 2
Anijen Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 10:24 AM, Tacenda said: When I first saw this it made me think of the many members outside of America. Does it hurt that the church seems to focus mostly on the USA? I remember reading posts on this board in the past where this was the feeling. Good post. I think your notion is correct. I admit, I first thought of the United States, but I live here. Your post made me realize there are now more church members outside the country than inside the United States, so, I guess, Elder Ballard could be talking about different nations in general.
Anijen Posted October 25, 2019 Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/22/2019 at 8:17 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Why am I not permitted to give you a rep point? I wondered about that same thing.
nuclearfuels Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 12:11 AM, bsjkki said: At a regional conference, Elder Ballard requested prayers for the nation. “As an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, I have a solemn duty to face the Lord and deliver his message,” said President Ballard. “His words often include words of encouragement and expressions of love. They also include words of warning.” America and the nations of the Earth, as in times past, “are at another crossroad,” he said. “Let it begin today that we take leadership and reach out in our own prayers and encourage our neighbors, our friends, our families … to pray for this country that we all love much.” https://www.deseret.com/2019/10/20/20924161/lds-church-mormon-m-russell-ballard I appreciated his words. Now, I'm trying to reconcile them with what he said about Nationalism, Populism, etc. Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles stated that we need to “eliminate any prejudice, including racism, sexism, and nationalism.” Later, Elder Neil L. Andersen, also of the Quorum of the Twelve, reiterated Ballard’s words on this subject. - So prejudice, including racism, sexism, and nationalism has led some in the US to where we are now? Like Antifa shutting down free speech events? If we're supposed to pray for our country's leaders, are we supposed to pray for impeachment (nationalism is set back or reduced; a socialist is elected POTUS?) or for impeachment to fail (nationalism rises; Trump and Pence are not re-elected?) ?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 On 10/26/2019 at 8:31 PM, nuclearfuels said: I appreciated his words. Now, I'm trying to reconcile them with what he said about Nationalism, Populism, etc. Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles stated that we need to “eliminate any prejudice, including racism, sexism, and nationalism.” Later, Elder Neil L. Andersen, also of the Quorum of the Twelve, reiterated Ballard’s words on this subject. - So prejudice, including racism, sexism, and nationalism has led some in the US to where we are now? Like Antifa shutting down free speech events? If we're supposed to pray for our country's leaders, are we supposed to pray for impeachment (nationalism is set back or reduced; a socialist is elected POTUS?) or for impeachment to fail (nationalism rises; Trump and Pence are not re-elected?) ? The Church does not take positions on party politics, and it is not doing so now. Praying for national leaders that they will have strength and wisdom to govern with justice and fairness and that they will thereby be an instrument in God's hands to accomplish His purposes avoids the dilemmas you suggest above. 3
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