Prominent Evangelical Christians Leaving Christianity

[bluebell]

This popped up in my news feed this morning and I thought it was interesting.

Evangelical Songwriter for Hillsong Says He's No Longer Christian

Quote

 

A musician who spent years writing songs and performing with the globally influential Christian music collective Hillsong now says he is questioning his faith. 

Marty Sampson is a songwriter and worship leader for the recording label that grew out of Hillsong Church, a congregation based in Sydney that now has branches in 23 countries. Hillsong frequently sets the trends in the Christian contemporary music industry, and its songs are sung by millions of people around the globe every Sunday.

Help us tell more of the stories that matter from voices that too often remain unheard.

Sampson has been writing for Hillsong since at least 1998. More recently, he was one of the musicians behind “The Lord’s Prayer,” a song that appears in Hillsong Worship’s 2018 album, “There Is More.” The song is a musical rendition of Christianity’s foundational prayer.

But Sampson now appears to be questioning the foundations of his faith. In mid-August, he started sharing his doubts about Christianity with his followers on Instagram. According to the faith-based news website Christian Post, Sampson announced in a since-deleted post that he was “genuinely losing my faith,” clarifying later that while he hasn’t completely renounced Christianity, his faith has been on “incredibly shaky ground.” 

Hillsong United performs at Allen Arena, Lipscomb University on August 18, 2011 in Nashville, Tennessee.

By last Friday, Sampson appeared to have stepped even further away from Christianity. In an emotional Instagram post, he thanked Hillsong Church’s founding family, the Houstons, for their support over the years. He insisted that he still loves Christians but no longer counts himself as a member of the faith.

To the CHURCH of Jesus Christ, I forgive you, and I LOVE you. I’ve got tears running down my face because it’s so true. I adore you Christians. I love you SO MUCH. That’s all. It was amazing being one of you, but I’m not any more. I love you all, and I always will. I won’t forget how much I love Christians, even if they don’t love me, I will always love you. Sorry for any bad words I have ever said about any of you. Forgive me. I love you all.

Sampson later deleted the post.

 

The article is much longer than this, this is just a snippet.  One part that I thought was interesting was the implication that the Evangelical teachings about the bible were one issue that Sampson was struggling with--

 

Quote

 

Since then, the musician has been posting memes scrutinizing Christianity and expressing doubts about how a good God could condone evil and suffering in the world.

[insert of his instagram post calling into question how the bible can be the inerrant word of God when it has God commanding the destruction of every living thing by the Israelites in the OT]

HuffPost has reached out to Sampson for comment on his faith journey. 

Hillsong Church is its own denomination in Australia, with roots in Pentecostal Christian theology. The church is known for its rock concert-style worship services; its hip, tattooed pastors; and celebrity attendees. It has faced criticism for its conservative positions on sexuality ― particularly its non-affirming stance toward LGBTQ Christians.

Several bands are part of the church’s record label ― Hillsong Worship, Hillsong United, Young & Free, and Hillsong Kids. Sampson has written music for all of them. 

Hillsong has not responded to HuffPost’s repeated requests for comment.

 

The article goes on to talk about other prominent members of that faith who have left.  Is the evangelical church going through similar things to our church or is this different?  From my perspective, it would be similar to Michael McLean, or Hilary Weeks leaving the church and we haven't had that happen yet (but it definitely could), so it's a little different than what we are dealing with.  Pop culture stars often have a lot of clout, sometimes more than leadership.  

Is this something that evangelical leadership can combat or is it happening because of core beliefs that they can't change (like their doctrines about how believing in an inerrant bible is mandatory to be a Christian)?

Edited August 27, 2019 by bluebell

[MustardSeed]

I think it’s about the internet.  This is the first generation of young adults growing up with the internet.  Doubt is unlikely shared out loud initially for believers- but highly likely shared online anonymously. That becomes contagious.  

I think our exodus us shared by others for similar reasons yes.  All just my opinion of course. 

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Is this something that evangelical leadership can combat or is it happening because of core beliefs that they can't change (like their doctrines about how believing in an inerrant bible is mandatory to be a Christian)?

Any faith not obtained through personal revelation from God (with God assuring someone of some truth and the person receiving such an assurance feeling assured that it was God who gave the assurance/revelation) is on terribly shaky ground because a faith of any kind other than that is obtained only from what some mortal person gave his assurance about, and anyone can reasonably question whether the mortal who gave it was right.

So, no, evangelical leadership doesn't have squat to keep someone from losing their faith if their faith is not obtained through personal revelation from God.  And even our own  Church leadership doesn't have much to offer other than to share what their faith is about.

We can't depend on borrowed light, on someone else's testimony, even if those other people got their own testimony directly from God.  

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

.......................Is this something that evangelical leadership can combat or is it happening because of core beliefs that they can't change (like their doctrines about how believing in an inerrant bible is mandatory to be a Christian)?

 

46 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I think it’s about the internet.  This is the first generation of young adults growing up with the internet.  Doubt is unlikely shared out loud initially for believers- but highly likely shared online anonymously. That becomes contagious.  

I think our exodus us shared by others for similar reasons yes.  All just my opinion of course. 

This is a Western phenomenon which preceded the internet in Europe, but the internet likely spurs it along.  Mainstream churches have been dying for generations, while more fundamentalist churches resisted it.  However, they too are now falling on hard times, and this will continue.  Fair weather friends are the first to go.

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Fair weather friends are the first to go.

I don't know that it's fair to call people like Sampson "fair weather friends" though.  Or maybe it is.  Is that what he did, was he strong when faith was easy and then did he decide to leave when it got hard to believe?  Is that a fair way to describe it?

[nuclearfuels]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

This popped up in my news feed this morning and I thought it was interesting.

Evangelical Songwriter for Hillsong Says He's No Longer Christian

The article is much longer than this, this is just a snippet.  One part that I thought was interesting was the implication that the Evangelical teachings about the bible were one issue that Sampson was struggling with--

 

The article goes on to talk about other prominent members of that faith who have left.  Is the evangelical church going through similar things to our church or is this different?  From my perspective, it would be similar to Michael McLean, or Hilary Weeks leaving the church and we haven't had that happen yet (but it definitely could), so it's a little different than what we are dealing with.  Pop culture stars often have a lot of clout, sometimes more than leadership.  

Is this something that evangelical leadership can combat or is it happening because of core beliefs that they can't change (like their doctrines about how believing in an inerrant bible is mandatory to be a Christian)?

Without continuing modern revelation, in addition to the Book of Mormon, PGP, D&C, it's hard to really reconcile the history of Christianity (not just Old Testament stuff but Elder Talmage's text, The Great Apostasy goes into detail about other reasons) with a loving Savior.

[california boy]

36 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Any faith not obtained through personal revelation from God (with God assuring someone of some truth and the person receiving such an assurance feeling assured that it was God who gave the assurance/revelation) is on terribly shaky ground because a faith of any kind other than that is obtained only from what some mortal person gave his assurance about, and anyone can reasonably question whether the mortal who gave it was right.

So, no, evangelical leadership doesn't have squat to keep someone from losing their faith if their faith is not obtained through personal revelation from God.  And even our own  Church leadership doesn't have much to offer other than to share what their faith is about.

We can't depend on borrowed light, on someone else's testimony, even if those other people got their own testimony directly from God.  

He hasn't said he is loosing his faith in God, just the Christian religion.  It has been my experience that God strengthens faith in Christ and the Atonement, not necessarily in organized religion.  Organized religion works for a lot of people, but not everyone.  I personally think God is ok with that.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't know that it's fair to call people like Sampson "fair weather friends" though.  Or maybe it is.  Is that what he did, was he strong when faith was easy and then did he decide to leave when it got hard to believe?  Is that a fair way to describe it?

I don't actually know Sampson's full reasons for leaving, but only a rock solid testimony can withstand the hard times which inevitably come.

[Tacenda]

46 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Any faith not obtained through personal revelation from God (with God assuring someone of some truth and the person receiving such an assurance feeling assured that it was God who gave the assurance/revelation) is on terribly shaky ground because a faith of any kind other than that is obtained only from what some mortal person gave his assurance about, and anyone can reasonably question whether the mortal who gave it was right.

So, no, evangelical leadership doesn't have squat to keep someone from losing their faith if their faith is not obtained through personal revelation from God.  And even our own  Church leadership doesn't have much to offer other than to share what their faith is about.

We can't depend on borrowed light, on someone else's testimony, even if those other people got their own testimony directly from God.  

I remember a RS teacher that admitted to borrowing from someone else's testimony. She suffered with unsure belief while on her mission and I think that's what her mission president said to do. Well she has used this on in to her 40's now. So for others it is needed when they've done everything under the sun to get that sure fire testimony.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

It has been my experience that God strengthens faith in Christ and the Atonement...

Yes, God is the one who "strengthens faith in Christ and the Atonement", which means that anyone who doesn't have or doesn't receive faith in Christ and the Atonement isn't getting much if any faith from God.

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

..., not necessarily in organized religion.  Organized religion works for a lot of people, but not everyone.  I personally think God is ok with that.

It all comes together as God adds to our faith, precept upon precept.  Christ is the chief cornerstone of the true Christian religion, and the true Christian religion is about nothing more than accepting Jesus Christ and the atonement.

Every concept circumscribed in the one "true" Christian religion is nothing more than an appendage, or an article of faith, if you will, to it.

[longview]

12 minutes ago, california boy said:

 - - - I personally think God is ok with that.

But not the cafeteria approach.  

[mfbukowski]

50 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

This is a Western phenomenon which preceded the internet in Europe, but the internet likely spurs it along.  Mainstream churches have been dying for generations, while more fundamentalist churches resisted it.  However, they too are now falling on hard times, and this will continue.  Fair weather friends are the first to go.

Religious folks need to grow up and understand how one can be a relativist AND a Christian- in essence a secular humanist AND a Christian at the same time.  As I have said before, if God is of the human species in some sense, humanism becomes theology.  God's intelligence is our intelligence, magnified to an infinite degree in our perception.  He is the glorification of all it means to be human in the highest possible sense.   That is the real POWER of the Church of Jesus Christ- the power we as members have yet to understand and use.  Christ is our friend and brother, not a cloud of amorphous, transcendent substance.

As I see it Creedal Christians have the same problem we are having- with us it is about infallible prophets AND scripture- for them it is only about inerrant scripture but the basis of it all is the same- how those texts or people we take in our lives to be inerrant turn out to be flawed and "human".

But for us, "Human" should be a good thing- because our Father is also Human but far above our understanding.  We must change our understanding of what "Human" is to understand our Father AND ourselves in doing so.

We all need to learn about contextual truth- that religious statements are not scientific statements and that all texts are humanly generated with some being more "inspired" than others.  And the greatest thing of all to learn- that WE need to take responsibility for our own beliefs  and confirming them through our OWN inspiration.

I am now working with a small group who have recently left the church and teaching these principles and it seems to be working.  You have to think like an atheist- easy for me- - and show why atheism does not solve the problem of having a meaningful value-based life.

So many believe in "karma" or that if they concentrate the "universe will manifest" the reality they imagine for themselves while eschewing prayer and notion that we all build our own worlds from matter unorganized.

They don't see that "asking the universe to manifest " the solutions to their innermost fears and searches for meaning is VERY similar to praying to God for help.

All they have done is changed the language game but the basic human needs- surprise surprise- remain unchanged.

When they realize that, you can see them start to soften and say things like "Well I never thought of it in that way".   They need to learn that "the universe" can be very forgiving when one has done all one can do to correct and give up any wrong doing they still have problems with.   That is pragmatically very similar to "saved by grace after all we can do".

A very intelligent young mother gave a testimony recently in our ward which included wording like "I know that the STORY of Adam and Eve is true in that Eve was able to understand the principle that it is better to pass through death and trials than remain in a safe cocoon without the possibility of progression, that God organized the world we know in six creative periods..." and on it went in that vein.

She saw the scriptures as allegories as well as being possibly historically accurate, while using traditional knowledge of "knowing truths" within that context, which is not typically the kind of testimony one hears in church.  And yet every word was fully compatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ.  She legitimately knew these principles were true.

Kevin C makes the point of course that we must advance in cognitive maturity through the stages roughly outlined by Perry- and that is I think the key to it all.

That is what I am teaching my newly self-styled "atheists"- that once one moves on to a different way of seeing, it starts to all come together.  They seem to like the idea that they are no longer trapped in literalism and silly rules and what they THOUGHT religion was and they are moving on to a "more mature" position - that appeals to their pride in being "smarter" than these poor bible thumpers around them- while not really seeing that they had it all the time and all they had to do was click their heels to go "home"

You gotta hit them with what works and if pride is the key, they will eventually see that it was.

We will see how it goes.

Edited August 27, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I remember a RS teacher that admitted to borrowing from someone else's testimony. She suffered with unsure belief while on her mission and I think that's what her mission president said to do. Well she has used this on in to her 40's now. So for others it is needed when they've done everything under the sun to get that sure fire testimony.

It can help but it will only go so far, and at some point that may not be far enough.

It's like a child being taught by his or her Mother while feeling assured that the Mother is right.  If the Mom is right the child's reliance on her testimony can help the child to grow in faith, but only so far as the Mother is right.

We are not perfect as mortals and even with the best of intentions we can be wrong in some things even when we think we are right, so it is always better to rely on God who is always right about everything.

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, california boy said:

 It has been my experience that God strengthens faith in Christ and the Atonement, not necessarily in organized religion

That is Christianity and what he has given up.  

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

That is Christianity and what he has given up.  

Evangelical Christianity has such a narrow view of what someone has to believe to be considered a Christian that I wonder how much that is impacting his statement that he is no longer a Christian.  There is no way to know but I do wonder if he believes that no longer believing the bible is inerrant, for example, means he's no longer a Christian, or if his belief that he is no longer Christian goes deeper.

[mfbukowski]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Evangelical Christianity has such a narrow view of what someone has to believe to be considered a Christian that I wonder how much that is impacting his statement that he is no longer a Christian.  There is no way to know but I do wonder if he believes that no longer believing the bible is inerrant, for example, means he's no longer a Christian, or if his belief that he is no longer Christian goes deeper.

I don't think there IS a "deeper" in his mind.  Sounds to me like it is the usual stuff we deal with here daily- God allows evil to happen, scriptural fallibility, historical issues perhaps, etc.   Amazing he never thought of these problems before.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't think there IS a "deeper" in his mind.  Sounds to me like it is the usual stuff we deal with here daily- God allows evil to happen, scriptural fallibility, historical issues perhaps, etc.   Amazing he never thought of these problems before.

Seems to me that he's taken one step away from "traditional Christianity" and one step closer to obtaining true faith from God.  Surely he's still going to be questioning what he should do, even now, and how to find out what is right.  And formal prayers really aren't necessary as long as his mind and heart are drawn toward finding out what is right and what is good.  And whether he knows it or not right now, what is good is of God and what is evil is related somehow to that bad guy who has been staying busy trying to prevent us from finding the truth for ages and ages now.

Knowing God is our Father and that he loves all of us and is trying to help all of us as much as we will let him, I don't worry too much about guys like this who used to write Christian songs and have Christian ideas.  He has enough ideas for our Father to work with already.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't think there IS a "deeper" in his mind.  Sounds to me like it is the usual stuff we deal with here daily- God allows evil to happen, scriptural fallibility, historical issues perhaps, etc.   Amazing he never thought of these problems before.

From my perspective, the "usual stuff" has a different impact on Evangelical Christians because it calls into question their Christianity and not just their affiliation with a specific denomination.   I know that can happen with members of the church of Jesus Christ as well but it seems like it's easier to reconcile a belief of an errant bible with being a Christian for a former latter-day saint than it is for a former evangelical.  

[mfbukowski]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

From my perspective, the "usual stuff" has a different impact on Evangelical Christians because it calls into question their Christianity and not just their affiliation with a specific denomination.   I know that can happen with members of the church of Jesus Christ as well but it seems like it's easier to reconcile a belief of an errant bible with being a Christian for a former latter-day saint than it is for a former evangelical.  

Oh yeah, very much so.

The reason is because we have the "Moroni challenge" in Moroni 10:4-5 which makes it clear we MUST pray to see if the scripture is "true".

Evangelicals do not have that- they just accept the Bible as it is as inerrant, and actually, when confronted with the Moroni challenge, say that it is precisely what one should NOT do- one does not pray about the bible because that is "private revelation" which conflicts with the idea that the gospel was revealed "once for all".  One cannot add or subtract from the perfect Word of God!

It's pretty paradoxical actually because you will hear EV's say "Well we prayed about buying the house and the Lord told us to go ahead with it...." or that sort of thing, BUT praying about the Bible itself is prohibited because that would be seeking "private revelation" when all the answers one needs are supposed to already be in the bible!

Sometimes I will talk with JW's who will misinterpret some bible verse (in my opinion) and then assert that their interpretation is "God's Word" and not to be changed one iota.  

I then ask them how they know the Bible is true and that they should follow it.   They are just dumbfounded typically and have never thought of such a thing- it is just true because it SAYS it is the Word of God.

You can go around and around with them and they sometimes act as if they cannot even comprehend the question or the answer that they must have their own revelation that the bible is "true".

So that is why and how we can imagine biblical errors because we know one has to get confirmation from God that ANY scripture is "true" before we accept it.  Maybe it is true, maybe not.  We see that as a possibility and they do not.

The problem ultimately of course is whether or not a given INTERPRETATION is the one God wants us individually to accept for our own personal growth, or at least that is my view.

I always use the analogy of a drunk on skid row praying about whether or not they should join the Salvation Army.  When it's the only path available to Christ I am positive that God is not going to tell them to wait for the missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ- who may never get there.  Any stepping stone toward Christ may be the "right" one for an individual at the right time in her life.

The Lord directs US for OUR personal situations, imo. and that is why we may legitimately disagree about certain passages.

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by mfbukowski

[rpn]

Most Christians believe that only those who accept Jesus as they know Him in this life aren't going to burn in hell.   That is a teaching that would be hard for anyone loving God or believing in God's goodness to swallow.

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, rpn said:

Most Christians believe that only those who accept Jesus as they know Him in this life aren't going to burn in hell.   That is a teaching that would be hard for anyone loving God or believing in God's goodness to swallow.

Yeah, really, especially in light of the fact/truth that our Father (and I suppose our Lord too) is said to dwell in everlasting burnings (which I suppose means some kind of fire) while those who reject Christ are supposedly going to be cast into outer darkness (which I suppose means way out in space somewhere far away from any light where it would supposedly be very cold so much that they will be gnashing their teeth forever and ever).

It's amazing what some people choose to believe.

 

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Religious folks need to grow up and understand how one can be a relativist AND a Christian- in essence a secular humanist AND a Christian at the same time.  As I have said before, if God is of the human species in some sense, humanism becomes theology.  God's intelligence is our intelligence, magnified to an infinite degree in our perception.  He is the glorification of all it means to be human in the highest possible sense.   That is the real POWER of the Church of Jesus Christ- the power we as members have yet to understand and use.  Christ is our friend and brother, not a cloud of amorphous, transcendent substance.

How dare you trample on my closely held beliefs in man inspired crystalline-clear words!  50 tongue lashings fer ya. This is me 😎 while ya get em.

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

As I see it Creedal Christians have the same problem we are having- with us it is about infallible prophets AND scripture- for them it is only about inerrant scripture but the basis of it all is the same- how those texts or people we take in our lives to be inerrant turn out to be flawed and "human".

But for us, "Human" should be a good thing- because our Father is also Human but far above our understanding.  We must change our understanding of what "Human" is to understand our Father AND ourselves in doing so.

We all need to learn about contextual truth- that religious statements are not scientific statements and that all texts are humanly generated with some being more "inspired" than others.  And the greatest thing of all to learn- that WE need to take responsibility for our own beliefs  and confirming them through our OWN inspiration.

I am now working with a small group who have recently left the church and teaching these principles and it seems to be working.  You have to think like an atheist- easy for me- - and show why atheism does not solve the problem of having a meaningful value-based life.

So many believe in "karma" or that if they concentrate the "universe will manifest" the reality they imagine for themselves while eschewing prayer and notion that we all build our own worlds from matter unorganized.

They don't see that "asking the universe to manifest " the solutions to their innermost fears and searches for meaning is VERY similar to praying to God for help.

All they have done is changed the language game but the basic human needs- surprise surprise- remain unchanged.

When they realize that, you can see them start to soften and say things like "Well I never thought of it in that way".   They need to learn that "the universe" can be very forgiving when one has done all one can do to correct and give up any wrong doing they still have problems with.   That is pragmatically very similar to "saved by grace after all we can do".

A very intelligent young mother gave a testimony recently in our ward which included wording like "I know that the STORY of Adam and Eve is true in that Eve was able to understand the principle that it is better to pass through death and trials than remain in a safe cocoon without the possibility of progression, that God organized the world we know in six creative periods..." and on it went in that vein.

She saw the scriptures as allegories as well as being possibly historically accurate, while using traditional knowledge of "knowing truths" within that context, which is not typically the kind of testimony one hears in church.  And yet every word was fully compatible with the gospel of Jesus Christ.  She legitimately knew these principles were true.

Kevin C makes the point of course that we must advance in cognitive maturity through the stages roughly outlined by Perry- and that is I think the key to it all.

That is what I am teaching my newly self-styled "atheists"- that once one moves on to a different way of seeing, it starts to all come together.  They seem to like the idea that they are no longer trapped in literalism and silly rules and what they THOUGHT religion was and they are moving on to a "more mature" position - that appeals to their pride in being "smarter" than these poor bible thumpers around them- while not really seeing that they had it all the time and all they had to do was click their heels to go "home"

You gotta hit them with what works and if pride is the key, they will eventually see that it was.

We will see how it goes.

Let us know. You will be definitely the head of the atheist conversion dept. Guess that leaves the Bible Belt dept for little 'ol mwaa. 

[california boy]

12 hours ago, longview said:

But not the cafeteria approach.  

Isn't every approach to religion a cafeteria approach?  Every organized religion picks and chooses what they want to believe and discards the part they don't want to believe.  The only difference is it is the leaders that are pick and choosing rather than individuals praying and asking God to help guide them to truth.  

One might be skeptical and think that the individual approach of praying and seeking personal revelation is self serving and not objective.  But again, organized religion is also self serving in what it decides to embrace or discard.  I would argue that if a person is just making up their own rules to fit their own lifestyle, then they are probably not all that interested in God or religious ideas.

Is it possible that any attempt by anyone, whether through an organized religion or through personal study and prayer that is bringing people closer to Christ and the understanding of the Atonement are steps in the right direction.  Certainly some individuals thrive in a structured organized religious belief.  But not all people do.  To judge their approach as not being valid or inferior to the one you choose may not actually be how God looks at it.

Just something to think about.

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, california boy said:

Isn't every approach to religion a cafeteria approach?

The important thing is whether you just take the stuff that tastes good to you or you are comfortable with right now or if you are willing to try healthy alternatives in hope of them doing you good and even learning to like them.

[aussieguy55]

A lot of churches are losing active members. The Southern Baptists have gone from 16 million to 14 million and only about a third of those turn up. One can check Cumorah.com and see there is a disparity between census records and those numbers the LDS church claim to have. I never warmed to the Hillsong style rather preferring the sacramental style of worship. Dr Peace from Fuller Seminary wrote that only about 10% of those who go  forward to commit their life to Jesus remained active. The best approach was small group ministry something which the South Korean Christians are good at.