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Book of Mormon Central and the “Restoration Movement”


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On one of Book of Mormon Central’s (BMC) website it states:

We hope our efforts help all of the religious organizations within the Restoration Movement who cherish the Book of Mormon.” https://bookofmormoncentral.org/content/donation-instructions  [bold added]

What is the Restoration Movement and the religious organizations within it?

On the Hill Cumorah Expedition Team web site, it states:

The Book of Mormon is many things to many people.  To some, it is the main 
purpose for the founding of a church in early 19th century America.  To the 
Restoration movement and all of the many factions, the Book of Mormon is the 
scripture that distinguishes it from other Christian faiths.

https://www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com/WhatisBofMormon.html [bold added]

Many factions?

What is the Hill Cumorah Expedition Team? 

“During the summer of 2001 several members of the Buckner Congregation of 
the Community of Christ traveled to Mexico to visit ancient ruins.  They were 
excited to have Neil Steede as a guide and travel companion.  Several sites 
were visited including Palenque, Cacaxtla, Cuicuilco, Comalcalco, Cholula, and 
Teotihuacan.  While traveling the group took a detour and went to see Cerro 
Rabon, a mountain near Jalapa de Diaz that many 
Book of Mormon 
archaeologists have reason to believe is the Hill Cumorah where ancient 
records are buried.”

https://www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com/ourbeginning.html

Ah! This answers the question of the “religious organizations or the many factions within the Restoration Movement which cherish The Book of Mormon.”

They would include:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS)

The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (RLDS)

The Community of Christ which is the new name for the RLDS Church (CofC)

Restoration Branches - RLDS congregations which broke off of the RLDS Church over women given the priesthood (now that sounds familiar!) , etc: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_branches

Do you know of others?

(Now you know one of the reasons why Pres. Nelson has asked us to refer to the complete name of the Church.)

But why is Jack Welch co-founder of BMC wanting to help all of these religious organizations within the “Restoration Movement” which cherish The Book of Mormon? 

Because Jack Welch and BMC is perpetuating a fraud, a Book of Mormon geography fraud.

This is why a CofC Congregation in Missouri has expeditions to Central America looking for the Hill Cumorah:

https://www.hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com/ or http://hceti.org/

Here is a book published by a member of the then RLDS Church, now CofC, Louise E. Hills, “New Light on American Archeology,” 1924, Independence, MO, Page 131.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89058377359;view=1up;seq=135

This is a contrived, false, fraud and a hoax created by the RLDS Chruch of a Two-Cumorah Book of Mormon geography theory NOW BEING promoted by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who own and work for:

Book of Mormon Central

The Interpreter Foundation

FairMormon

..and others who promote the theory which places Book of Mormon geography strictly within Mesoamerica and ignore President Oliver Cowdery who wrote that it was a fact that the final Jaredite and Nephite battles occurred near the Hill Cumorah in New York. https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

Maybe you believe there are Two Hill Cumorahs, the original one in Central America somewhere. Why don’t you join this CofC Congregation which believes the same and help them discover the Hill Cumorah in Central America. As RLDS Louise E Hills wrote, Page 131:

1 am aware that Moroni wrote that he made his
synopsis of the Jaredite history "from the twenty and
four plates," but at what time he did this I do not know.
It may have been done before his father's death, to be
in preparation for the Lord's purpose that such
"account" of the Jaredites should be known in our time.
At least Oliver Cowdery's statement of the contents of
the box, namely, that it contained a "sketch" of the two
peoples seems to make it plain that Moroni did not place
the original Jaredite record in the New York hilL I
have no objection to that hill being also called Cumorah,
with the understanding that the ancient hill Cumorah
is still undiscovered, and that sometime its secrets will
be revealed and come to the knowledge of God's people.

Join the expedition! 😏😄😄

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Do you think anyone will listen to you after your huge embarrassment in the other thread? You know, the one where you claimed the search wasn't working on the JSP website and you implied that it was some sort of conspiracy?

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1 hour ago, Burnside said:

..................................

Ah! This answers the question of the “religious organizations or the many factions within the Restoration Movement which cherish The Book of Mormon.”

They would include:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS)

The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (RLDS)

The Community of Christ which is the new name for the RLDS Church (CofC)

Restoration Branches - RLDS congregations which broke off of the RLDS Church over women given the priesthood (now that sounds familiar!) , etc: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_branches

Do you know of others?...................................

There are actually hundreds of them, many of them calling themselves "Church of Jesus Christ," some being quite small.  

Sillito, John, and Susan Staker, eds., Mormon Mavericks: Essays on Dissenters (SLC: Signature Books, 2002). 

Shields, Steven L., Divergent Paths of the Restoration, 4th ed. (Herald House, 1990).
 

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16 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

I would suggest that this is slander, but Jack is a lawyer and probably has a better definition. He certainly has better things to do with his time. Since this discussion is well beneath his radar, I'll make a response for him.

The problem with your statement is two-fold. First, that it is Jack's influence that promotes the Mesoamerican theory at Book of Mormon Central. I don't know that he is opposed to it, but it isn't his area of research, and I have been in several meetings with him present and you would be hard-pressed to find evidence for your suggestion. I know of others at Book of Mormon Central who are firmly in the Mesoamerican camp, even though the official position of the organization is to attempt to be more neutral. I am one of those who believe that the best current location for Book of Mormon events is in Mesoamerica (though I differ in some specifics from others at Book of Mormon Central).

That takes care of Jack's involvement. The next is whether supporting a Mesoamerican location for Book of Mormon events is perpetrating a fraud. That is something that can be discerned, because fraud means something that is not correct, but set as true. Since the Mesoamerican theory is a theory, I don't know of anyone who says that it is the absolute truth--better than any other theory, but not absolute truth (which is a pretty difficult standard). So, no fraud.

Next, however, would be the question of evidence. Rather than look at the Mesoamerican evidence (which I have done before and much of which can be found online, if you are interested), I would like to turn this around and have you discuss why you are not perpetrating fraud. So far, your major point has been that there must only be one Cumorah, and it must be in NY. I haven't seen any historical evidence that is convincing. I know that there are trained historians for the Church who specifically looked at the issue, and can't find Joseph using the term Cumorah for the NY hill until about 10 years after others were using it. You would think that if Joseph were the one to give it that name, he would use it. He didn't. As for not correcting Oliver, he didn't correct W.W. Phelps either when Phelps invented the urim and thummim as a designation for what Joseph always called the interpreters (or a seer stone--again until much later).

Let's move to geography. If the NY Cumorah is the Cumorah of the Book of Mormon, it must be in the land northward. That means it is north of the narrow neck of land. The only "narrow neck" I have seen proposed is northwest of Cumorah, and therefore textually inaccurate.

The lands northward have to have been, at least at one time, devoid of trees, and therefore houses were built of cement. There is no known time before the white settlers when the area was even partially deforested. There are no cement houses, and nothing that fits that description.

Archaeologically, the NY hill doesn't provide any support for having any kind of population during Book of Mormon times.

The area is home to peoples who do not fit the descriptions of the Book of Mormon during the appropriate times. The Hopewell communities were primarily hunter and gather with supplemental incipient agriculture. That isn't what is described in the Book of Mormon, and cannot (and did not) support Book of Mormon-sized populations.

The Adena, who date to Jaredite times, are precursors to the Hopewell, and exist in the same locations (so much so, that there is a movement to consider them an earlier Hopewell rather than a different people). The Book of Mormon doesn't have Book of Mormon peoples in any Jaredite lands until late. The text assumes Jaredite lands to be north of the narrow neck (which again doesn't fit for anything in North America).

So, if we are going to discuss fraudulent proposals, please tell me how it is possible that you can support the NY hill as Cumorah with any archaeological or historical evidence? I can freely admit that it was Latter-day Saint tradition, but tradition isn't revelation. 

So, before you continue to accuse anyone of intentional fraud, please exonerate your own ideas by defending them. 

Thank you.

It’s a fraud which came from the RLDS Church which Book of Mormon Central is perpetuating.

This is HA Stebbins autobiography: http://www.latterdaytruth.org/pdf/100746.pdf

In it he mentions creating Book of Mormon lectures in 1894. His lectures later written down and published and found here: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101074888833;view=1up;seq=2

In his autobiography he wrote: 

“I sat down and began to go over the antiquarian writings of John L. Stephens, Josiah Priest, J.D. Baldwin, C. G. Foster, H. H. Bancro:fit, Desire Charney, W. H. Prescott, and other historians. The first distinct instDuction given me was, "Take the Jaredites first, as the first people who came." The next was to take up tJhe narrative and follow it in its order clear through. In ,the first I was astonished at the clear proofs brought to my attention, those I had never heard any of our ministers use nor seen in any writings.”

bold added for emphasis.

Stebbins ignored Oliver Cowdery in Letter VII, just like your’re doing, Brant Gardner. You ignore your Ministers, your Priesthood Leaders, The Prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

Book of Mormon Central, you, its employees and volunteers are perpetuating a fraud, created by a member of the RLDS Church as far back as 1894 by someone who studied John Lloyd Stephens’ travel book.

John L Sorenson, Jack Welch, Kirk Magelby, Dan Peterson, Book of Mormon Central, The Interpreter Foundation, FairMormon plagiarized and refined to now promote the theory that John Lloyd Stephen’s travel book was the source for Joseph Smith’s knowledge of the geography of The Book of Mormon. balderdash!

Here is an from the RLDS Church’s publication  “Saint’s Herald” 1954. The RLDS Church mentions during its General Conference Book of Mormon geography in Central America.

So how is it SLANDER, when Book of Mormon Central talked of visiting Mesoamerica?

This is a video of a BMC/BMAF Conference talking about visiting Mesoamerica. Minute 31:00 is revealing:

BMC/BMAF minute 31:00

The fine gentleman Bro. Aston states:

“...that process of doing all that we can and then we can expect that The Lord will give us more.“

So, we’re so suppossed to disbelieve Oliver Cowdery, and expect The Lord will give us more about Book of Mormon geography by searching for the Hill Cumorah in Mesoamerica,

This when Oliver Cowdery under the direction of Joseph Smith, who was Joseph Smith’s scribe, wrote to the Church in 1834 before the RLDS church even existed, that “it was a fact” the final Jaredite and Nephite battles occurred near the Hill Cumorah in New York.

So tell us again Bro. Gardner, as Jack Welch’s scribe, how we should disbelieve our Priesthood Leaders. ok?

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Fraud involves a malicious misrepresentation of or failure to disclose material facts in order to mislead someone to act or refrain from acting in reasonable reliance on the misrepresentation or failure to disclose.

Then there must be actual damage proximately caused.

I maintain that the sideburned one cannot make any part of that case.

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On 3/30/2019 at 3:17 PM, Burnside said:

But why is Jack Welch co-founder of BMC wanting to help all of these religious organizations within the “Restoration Movement” which cherish The Book of Mormon? 

Probably for the same reason that other scholars and leaders within the Church have sought healthy relationships with these groups. For example, this 1979 article from the Ensign highlights  interactions between scholars and leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The article favorably notes,  "Healthy relations with the RLDS Church were evident as President Kimball and RLDS President Wallace B. Smith enjoyed a dinner together when President Kimball was in Independence to dedicate the stake center."

The simple answer to your question is that Book of Mormon Central wants all people to increase their faith and interest in the Book of Mormon, including members of the various religious organizations within the "Restoration Movement." It's as simple as that. It has absolutely nothing to do with some geography-oriented conspiracy theory. Period. 

 

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23 hours ago, Burnside said:

It’s a fraud which came from the RLDS Church which Book of Mormon Central is perpetuating.

This is a "guilt by association" fallacy. To see why logically it doesn't work, consider the classic example. "How can you love puppies? You know who else loved puppies? Hitler!"

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1 hour ago, Brant Gardner said:

Actually, that is hard to justify historically. Even Dan Vogel suggests that there must have been some reality to the plates. I don't mean to suggest that he supports Joseph's version, but it does suggest that we must be more nuanced than simply saying that there were no plates. You might argue that they were tin, but the evidence is strong enough to suggest that there were some kind of plates.

Not just Vogel but Taves has it as her major position that Joseph actualized the plates from a spiritual image. From what I can tell few people dismiss the existence of plates although many may think they were merely tin plates.

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20 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

Actually, that is hard to justify historically. Even Dan Vogel suggests that there must have been some reality to the plates. I don't mean to suggest that he supports Joseph's version, but it does suggest that we must be more nuanced than simply saying that there were no plates. You might argue that they were tin, but the evidence is strong enough to suggest that there were some kind of plates.

I've wondered what other items God has taken from this earth.  The plates are interesting because everyone who was involved and who had something to say about the translation seem to suggest the plates just lay there ignored as Joseph rattled off words that appeared in the darkness of a hat.  I mean seriously if true, if God was behind this, and all of that, it's not wonder he didn't want the plates still here.  People would look at them and in time figure out some rhyme and reason to them and voila! no BoM.  Then again, that's what happened with the BoA.  God didn't seem to care enough about it to hide, take away, or destroy the papyrus.  Maybe it was never meant to be scripture though.  

I like the story of the plates getting taken into heavens because they are so special.  That some manufactured item from this earth will sit under glass in the heavenly museum for celestial know-it-alls to see, well, that's just silly.  But I suppose it wouldn't be the first time I'd call something that people are telling me God did silly.  

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7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I've wondered what other items God has taken from this earth.  The plates are interesting because everyone who was involved and who had something to say about the translation seem to suggest the plates just lay there ignored as Joseph rattled off words that appeared in the darkness of a hat.  I mean seriously if true, if God was behind this, and all of that, it's not wonder he didn't want the plates still here.  People would look at them and in time figure out some rhyme and reason to them and voila! no BoM.  Then again, that's what happened with the BoA.  God didn't seem to care enough about it to hide, take away, or destroy the papyrus.  Maybe it was never meant to be scripture though.  

I like the story of the plates getting taken into heavens because they are so special.  That some manufactured item from this earth will sit under glass in the heavenly museum for celestial know-it-alls to see, well, that's just silly.  But I suppose it wouldn't be the first time I'd call something that people are telling me God did silly.  

The plates will be returned when it is time to translate the rest of it. Then we can probably keep them. Wouldn’t want someone trying to peek at the top secret stuff yet.

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21 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

Actually, that is hard to justify historically. Even Dan Vogel suggests that there must have been some reality to the plates. I don't mean to suggest that he supports Joseph's version, but it does suggest that we must be more nuanced than simply saying that there were no plates. You might argue that they were tin, but the evidence is strong enough to suggest that there were some kind of plates.

Well, the going story is that Joseph had the tools to make some plates, since they had a shop that built barrels called a "Cooper Shop".

It could have looked like this...

Image result for what is a cooper shop

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1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Well, the going story is that Joseph had the tools to make some plates, since they had a shop that built barrels called a "Cooper Shop".

It could have looked like this...

Image result for what is a cooper shop

I have a hard time buying that the eight witnesses would have accepted tin as gold. That generation was much more familiar with gold then we are.

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9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The plates will be returned when it is time to translate the rest of it. Then we can probably keep them. Wouldn’t want someone trying to peek at the top secret stuff yet.

yes...the Schwartz is strong with this one.  

 

I can't wait until all the other writings from the various corners of the earth come forth, confirming the stories found in the BoM and Bible.  

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12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have a hard time buying that the eight witnesses would have accepted tin as gold. That generation was much more familiar with gold then we are.

This is where I'm so confused, some say they saw them in a vision and some say they saw them in person and felt or lifted them but were in a bag of some sort. 

Also, the eight witnesses didn't all sign their names, their names were signed for them in the BofM.

ETA: I ran out of posts, you're welcome to message me. Or I will edit this post as long as it will let me.

Edited by Tacenda
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37 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The plates will be returned when it is time to translate the rest of it. Then we can probably keep them. Wouldn’t want someone trying to peek at the top secret stuff yet.

Why would God take them now to preserve them when previously the method of preservation was to bury them in a hill?  

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2 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

Why would God take them now to preserve them when previously the method of preservation was to bury them in a hill?  

It is not preservation. It is about keeping the sealed portion out of mortal hands. Besides, Enoch’s City was probably waiting for them and now they get the sealed portion.

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47 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is where I'm so confused, some say they saw them in a vision and some say they saw them in person and felt or lifted them but were in a bag of some sort. 

Also, the eight witnesses didn't all sign their names, their names were signed for them in the BofM.

From a previous post, you noted that Joseph had access to the tools necessary. I don't doubt that was true. What would have been much more difficult is to have access to the material needed. Buying it would have been extremely difficult, and both buying that quantity (or stealing it) would have been noticed. I would be difficult to pass off tin as gold, not only for the weight, but also because if any of those involved had heard of Joseph a large enough quantity of tin, it would be suspicious.

The witnesses had various statements, coming from different times and experiences. The three had a visionary experience, and the eight a physical one. One thing I hear often is that they saw it with "spiritual eyes," suggesting that it wasn't real. In the context, they are speaking of seeing the things of the divine, not the mundane. Of course you have to be spiritual to see spiritual things. 

The existing testimony of the eight doesn't have their original signatures. I will be generous and assume that all of them could have signed (wouldn't be unusual if some could not). However, the signature doesn't make the testimony. Their words and actions make the testimony. The lack of original signatures is an interesting historical oddity, but a red herring as far as authenticity goes.

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