Book of Mormon Central and the “Restoration Movement”

[Robert D. Crockett]

23 minutes ago, Brant Gardner said:

From a previous post, you noted that Joseph had access to the tools necessary. I don't doubt that was true. What would have been much more difficult is to have access to the material needed. Buying it would have been extremely difficult, and both buying that quantity (or stealing it) would have been noticed. I would be difficult to pass off tin as gold, not only for the weight, but also because if any of those involved had heard of Joseph a large enough quantity of tin, it would be suspicious.

The witnesses had various statements, coming from different times and experiences. The three had a visionary experience, and the eight a physical one. One thing I hear often is that they saw it with "spiritual eyes," suggesting that it wasn't real. In the context, they are speaking of seeing the things of the divine, not the mundane. Of course you have to be spiritual to see spiritual things. 

The existing testimony of the eight doesn't have their original signatures. I will be generous and assume that all of them could have signed (wouldn't be unusual if some could not). However, the signature doesn't make the testimony. Their words and actions make the testimony. The lack of original signatures is an interesting historical oddity, but a red herring as far as authenticity goes.

Let me also point out that signatures are not necessary.  It was a very routine matter in the 19th Century for authors to provide various attestations.    Look at John C Bennett's expose of Mormonism, for example.  The attestations did not have signatures.  Any of the witnesses could have come forward after the Book of Mormon publication and said -- "Hey, that isn't me.  You've claimed my endorsement but I have not given one."  That absolutely did not happen here.  The witnesses ratified -- a legal principle -- their attestation by not denying it.  Again, very very common in the 19th century.  The whole argument today is now a canard.  

My ancestor, Theodore Turley, chased down John Whitmer.  Turley was a Seventy. Turley asked Whitmer if he denied his testimony of the Gold Plates.  Whitmer said, "yes."  Turley asked for an explanation.  Whitmer said that when he handled the plates, and turned the leaves, the words were not in English and hence he could not endorse the position that the Plates represented the Book of Mormon.  Now, as a lawyer, I could provide several paragraphs to explain why, under the law, this kind of retraction is actually one of the most powerful pieces of evidence in support of the retracted position, but I won't.  But it is.

As to the opening post and the one or two Hill Cumorahs business, I quite agree with Burnside that the Church's position has always -- when it took a position -- that the Hill Cumorah was the same Nephite and Jaredite hill where the final battles occurred.  It seems to me that the Church took a hard step in that direction when it acquired the Hill Cumorah and gave various speeches about it in a general conference.  My personal opinion is also that the genesis for the Two Hill Cumorah theory is a lack of faith in the Book of Mormon, although later adherents don't necessarily know that about the Two HIll Cumorah theory and are simply glomming on (if that is a word) to Dr. Sorenson's theory because he is the flavor of the day.

But, really now, calling somebody a fraud?  And doing it anonymously?  That's rank cowardice.  I know Jack Welch very well.  I was his first research assistant when he came to BYU.  He acts only in the highest of high good faith in promoting Dr. Sorenson and his theories, and Jack believes in promoting a deeper understanding of the BoM.

[stemelbow]

45 minutes ago, Brant Gardner said:

From a previous post, you noted that Joseph had access to the tools necessary. I don't doubt that was true. What would have been much more difficult is to have access to the material needed. Buying it would have been extremely difficult, and both buying that quantity (or stealing it) would have been noticed. I would be difficult to pass off tin as gold, not only for the weight, but also because if any of those involved had heard of Joseph a large enough quantity of tin, it would be suspicious.

The witnesses had various statements, coming from different times and experiences. The three had a visionary experience, and the eight a physical one. One thing I hear often is that they saw it with "spiritual eyes," suggesting that it wasn't real. In the context, they are speaking of seeing the things of the divine, not the mundane. Of course you have to be spiritual to see spiritual things. 

I think Martin's story as told by joseph (?) wherein he felt bad so he excused himself from the others.  Joseph went and found him and they prayed together.  It's as if Martin then pulled himself out of the dream or vision saying "tis enough, mine eyes have beheld".  If so they are testifying of a visionary experience it seems.  Yes, the written testimony doesn't mention that.  It presents the experience as if it was an event wherein a random traveler who might have happened upon them would have seen and heard what they both saw and heard.  For instance, when they speak of hearing the voice of God, did the voice rattle the rocks and trees that were near them, or was it something an outside observer would not have been able to perceive?  If it were real and if God was involved, great.  But, again the 3 witness testimony doesn't seem to tell us much about that.  It presents something other than the little snippet about Martin provides--that is it is in his mind.  

Perhaps the oddest part is, the translating witnesses give us the idea that Joseph didn't use the plates.  That he dictated words that the scribe wrote down but the plates weren't consulted.  Why does that matter?  The plates may have been useless.  They might not actually contain anything near what the BoM became.  They were prop and not much more.  But the whole story is interesting, because Joseph had the plates.  But as it were, there was a need that by God they could see the plates.  that an angel had to be there to show them.  yet the whole time Joseph had them in his position and yet didn't use them to translate--they didn't see them.  

It's not just that they saw them with spiritual eyes because they are speaking of seeing the things of the divine, but it is that they were shows in vision, if nothing else.  Perhaps God works that way.  It is how Joseph first saw God and Jesus, Moroni and others.  It's not as if others present or nearby heard and saw.  

[USU78]

2 hours ago, Robert D. Crockett said:

Really now, calling somebody a fraud?  And doing it anonymously?  That's rank cowardice.

There is much in your post with which I agree, and some with which I do not agree.

On this quoted part we agree in spades, but I would go farther.  It was not submitted in good faith.  And I don't think it's a close question.

[USU78]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think Martin's story as told by joseph (?) wherein he felt bad so he excused himself from the others.  Joseph went and found him and they prayed together.  It's as if Martin then pulled himself out of the dream or vision saying "tis enough, mine eyes have beheld".  If so they are testifying of a visionary experience it seems.  Yes, the written testimony doesn't mention that.  It presents the experience as if it was an event wherein a random traveler who might have happened upon them would have seen and heard what they both saw and heard.  For instance, when they speak of hearing the voice of God, did the voice rattle the rocks and trees that were near them, or was it something an outside observer would not have been able to perceive?  If it were real and if God was involved, great.  But, again the 3 witness testimony doesn't seem to tell us much about that.  It presents something other than the little snippet about Martin provides--that is it is in his mind.  

Perhaps the oddest part is, the translating witnesses give us the idea that Joseph didn't use the plates.  That he dictated words that the scribe wrote down but the plates weren't consulted.  Why does that matter?  The plates may have been useless.  They might not actually contain anything near what the BoM became.  They were prop and not much more.  But the whole story is interesting, because Joseph had the plates.  But as it were, there was a need that by God they could see the plates.  that an angel had to be there to show them.  yet the whole time Joseph had them in his position and yet didn't use them to translate--they didn't see them.  

It's not just that they saw them with spiritual eyes because they are speaking of seeing the things of the divine, but it is that they were shows in vision, if nothing else.  Perhaps God works that way.  It is how Joseph first saw God and Jesus, Moroni and others.  It's not as if others present or nearby heard and saw.  

To coin a phrase:  everything is perceived inside your own head, including the statements of others who perceived in their heads what you perceived in yours.

To quote Dumbledore:  ""Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean it is not real?""

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I've wondered what other items God has taken from this earth.  The plates are interesting because everyone who was involved and who had something to say about the translation seem to suggest the plates just lay there ignored as Joseph rattled off words that appeared in the darkness of a hat.  I mean seriously if true, if God was behind this, and all of that, it's not wonder he didn't want the plates still here.  People would look at them and in time figure out some rhyme and reason to them and voila! no BoM.  Then again, that's what happened with the BoA.  God didn't seem to care enough about it to hide, take away, or destroy the papyrus.  Maybe it was never meant to be scripture though.  

I like the story of the plates getting taken into heavens because they are so special.  That some manufactured item from this earth will sit under glass in the heavenly museum for celestial know-it-alls to see, well, that's just silly.  But I suppose it wouldn't be the first time I'd call something that people are telling me God did silly.  

He should have grabbed the BOA papyri as well!

[mfbukowski]

Why does anybody even respond to this clown?

[Bernard Gui]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have a hard time buying that the eight witnesses would have accepted tin as gold. That generation was much more familiar with gold then we are.

Gold and tin have distinctive characteristics other than color that make it unlikely one could be passed off for the other. 

[alter idem]

22 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I've wondered what other items God has taken from this earth.  The plates are interesting because everyone who was involved and who had something to say about the translation seem to suggest the plates just lay there ignored as Joseph rattled off words that appeared in the darkness of a hat.  I mean seriously if true, if God was behind this, and all of that, it's not wonder he didn't want the plates still here.  People would look at them and in time figure out some rhyme and reason to them and voila! no BoM.  Then again, that's what happened with the BoA.  God didn't seem to care enough about it to hide, take away, or destroy the papyrus.  Maybe it was never meant to be scripture though.  

I like the story of the plates getting taken into heavens because they are so special.  That some manufactured item from this earth will sit under glass in the heavenly museum for celestial know-it-alls to see, well, that's just silly.  But I suppose it wouldn't be the first time I'd call something that people are telling me God did silly.  

I don't think the plates were taken 'into heavens' because they were so special.  They were taken back by Moroni because they are still needed for a later purpose in the Lord's work on earth.  A portion is sealed and will need to be translated at some time in the future.  I don't think any of us are aware of what Moroni did with them--while highly unlikely, I suppose they could be under glass in heaven, but to me, the most reasonable assumption is that they are back in an earthly repository, safe and divinely protected until needed--that makes sense, as you pointed out, they are a temporal object.

I'm not sure who told you God keeps them under glass in heaven, but I'd think that person is pulling your leg.  They probably were joking or making fun of the church's religious beliefs.

 

If one understands that the Golden plates still have a purpose to fulfill on earth, it's reasonable to assume they are held by someone with stewardship (the resurrected Moroni),  not because they are simply 'special', but because their purpose on the earth is not finished.  The Papyri were lost and what survived from deteriorating when exposed to the air,  likely burned in the Chicago fire.  I'd assume their purpose was fulfilled--like the original Nauvoo temple, which suffered a similar fate.  It's not because they weren't 'special', lots of things that are special do not survive earthly conditions.

Edited April 3, 2019 by alter idem

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Why does anybody even respond to this clown?

Because it is fun to undercut his insane dogmatism.

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Because it is fun to undercut his insane dogmatism.

"Look ma, you poke this thing and it makes noises!"

[mfbukowski]

On 4/2/2019 at 9:19 AM, stemelbow said:

People would look at them and in time figure out some rhyme and reason to them and voila! no BoM.  Then again, that's what happened with the BoA.  God didn't seem to care enough about it to hide, take away, or destroy the papyrus.  Maybe it was never meant to be scripture though.  

We have the BOA to prove that Revelation is one thing and translation is something quite different.

Joseph thought he needed props to receive revelation. That's why he had all the toys and seer Stones etc.

I think he thought of it almost as a mechanical process.

Finally later in his life he knew he did not need them at all.

Look at the king follett discourse.

Revelation just rolled off his tongue.

Edited April 3, 2019 by mfbukowski

[ksfisher]

19 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Why does anybody even respond to this clown?

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

"Look ma, you poke this thing and it makes noises!"

I never claimed it was not a juvenile impulse but there is so much sorrow and difficulty in the world that taking pleasure in this fun seems justified.

[USU78]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We have the BOA to prove that Revelation is one thing and translation is something quite different.

Joseph thought he needed props to receive revelation. That's why he had all the toys and seer Stones etc.

I think he thought of it almost as a mechanical process.

Finally later in his life he knew he did not need them at all.

Look at the king follett discourse.

Revelation just rolled off his tongue.

In a thread a few months ago, I listed a quote from East of Eden from the character Sam Hamilton, the Gaelic Prophet of Salinas, in which he admits he uses a dowsing rod to find water because he lacks the faith to tell people what he already knows.  He knows all about water, where to find it, how deep to dig for it, and how much of it there is.  The rod provides cover for lack of confidence.

JSJr was much like that, as you astutely point out:  he relied on tangible doodads to help him focus his prophetic gift early on.  Interpreters and seer stones and, who knows?, dowsing rods perhaps.  The papyri probably served the same purpose.  As his faith increased, his need for something in his hand or in front of his eyes or under the cloth on the kitchen table or under the loose bricks in the fireplace disappeared.

Why were the plates taken back and the papyri destroyed in large part by fire?  He didn't need them any more.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, USU78 said:

In a thread a few months ago, I listed a quote from East of Eden from the character Sam Hamilton, the Gaelic Prophet of Salinas, in which he admits he uses a dowsing rod to find water because he lacks the faith to tell people what he already knows.  He knows all about water, where to find it, how deep to dig for it, and how much of it there is.  The rod provides cover for lack of confidence.

JSJr was much like that, as you astutely point out:  he relied on tangible doodads to help him focus his prophetic gift early on.  Interpreters and seer stones and, who knows?, dowsing rods perhaps.  The papyri probably served the same purpose.  As his faith increased, his need for something in his hand or in front of his eyes or under the cloth on the kitchen table or under the loose bricks in the fireplace disappeared.

Why were the plates taken back and the papyri destroyed in large part by fire?  He didn't need them any more.

The first time I read it, I knew it was not a translation, and I said to myself " I don't care if this guy thought he was translating the patterns on the wallpaper this is wonderful stuff."

That was 40 years ago. I do not fathom why all these folks have problems with it. 

In the tradition of seers and mystics worldwide people look at tea leaves or the waves of the ocean or into fire to receive their messages. I don't know why people would think Joseph would be different

We create patterns as they are suggested to us from phenomena as it enters our minds .

We look at clouds and see castles and bunnies.

That is what humans naturally do.

Joseph just saw things that no one else had ever seen.

It is called organizing matter unorganized. That's what we as godlets do and what the Lord does on a huge scale

Same process, He is just a few billion years ahead of us.

 

Edited April 3, 2019 by mfbukowski