my book of mormon map

[thesometimesaint]

There is scant evidence that the Amerids of the Great Lakes region of 400 CE had a written language.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, sam said:

Ether 9:34

34 And it came to pass that the people did follow the course of the beasts, and did devour the carcasses of them which fell by the way, until they had devoured them all. Now when the people saw that they must perish they began to repent of their iniquities and cry unto the Lord.

When you include the previous verses, this is clearly describing a singular event, not necessarily something that happened seasonly:

Quote

30 And it came to pass that there began to be a great dearth upon the land, and the inhabitants began to be destroyed exceedingly fast because of the dearth, for there was no rain upon the face of the earth. 31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla. 32 And it came to pass that there were many of them which did perish by the way; nevertheless, there were some which fled into the land southward. 33 And it came to pass that the Lord did cause the serpents that they should pursue them no more, but that they should hedge up the way that the people could not pass, that whoso should attempt to pass might fall by the poisonous serpents.

And I wonder if this could even be possible in a colder climate. The beasts would migrate south to escape the cold, the same time that poisonous serpents would begin to brumate. It'd be hard for serpents to "hedge up the way" if they were frozen solid in the snow.

Can't get through the pass because of the poisonous snakes? Just wait a few months.

[sam]

38 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

There is scant evidence that the Amerids of the Great Lakes region of 400 CE had a written language.

I already had this discussion I was using the mic mak Indians for a written language. In the mic mak book of prayers have four characters that are the same in appearance and meaning as four Egyptian hieroglyphs. There are also many characters that are the same in appearance as characters on the Anton transcript.

father clericq takes credit for their written language. But I say he used characters that he saw mic maw Indians writing on birch bark when first arrived. There is no reason why he should have used Egyptian hieroglyphs and he could not have known the meaning of those characters. Egyptian hieroglyphs were undecipherable until 1820 until the Rosetta stone was discovered. Clericq lived with the mik maqs north of New York State in the 1680s.

[sam]

4 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

When you include the previous verses, this is clearly describing a singular event, not necessarily something that happened seasonly:

And I wonder if this could even be possible in a colder climate. The beasts would migrate south to escape the cold, the same time that poisonous serpents would begin to brumate. It'd be hard for serpents to "hedge up the way" if they were frozen solid in the snow.

Can't get through the pass because of the poisonous snakes? Just wait a few months.

There are three venemous snakes that are native to the state of Ohio that borders Lake Erie. They are the Northern Copperhead, Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake, and the Eastern Timber Rattlesnake.

[sam]

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

When you include the previous verses, this is clearly describing a singular event, not necessarily something that happened seasonly:

And I wonder if this could even be possible in a colder climate. The beasts would migrate south to escape the cold, the same time that poisonous serpents would begin to brumate. It'd be hard for serpents to "hedge up the way" if they were frozen solid in the snow.

Can't get through the pass because of the poisonous snakes? Just wait a few months.

They probably did not migrate during winter the best time for that is spring and summer.

[sam]

12 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

When you include the previous verses, this is clearly describing a singular event, not necessarily something that happened seasonly:

And I wonder if this could even be possible in a colder climate. The beasts would migrate south to escape the cold, the same time that poisonous serpents would begin to brumate. It'd be hard for serpents to "hedge up the way" if they were frozen solid in the snow.

Can't get through the pass because of the poisonous snakes? Just wait a few months.

That singular event is describing animals that herd together and has a large enough population that has animals regularly die off. The buffalo is an excellent fit there were millions upon millions of buffalo at one time.

 

also the jardites eventually took care of the serpent problem.

19 And it came to pass that Lib also did that which was good in the sight of the Lord. And in the days of Lib the poisonous serpents were destroyed. Wherefore they did go into the land southward, to hunt food for the people of the land, for the land was covered with animals of the forest. And Lib also himself became a great hunter.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, sam said:

I'm not sure what your point is.

Having lived in Central America for 2 years, I found the winters (the dry season) more suitable for outdoor activities than the summers (the wet season). I reckon that would include war. The dry season is December through April, and wet season is May through November. Have you taken that into consideration?

Edited September 11, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[sam]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Having lived in Central America for 2 years, I found the winters (the dry season) more suitable for outdoor activities than the summers (the wet season). I reckon that would include war. The dry season is December through April, and wet season is May through November. Have you taken that into consideration?

That is the point sorenson was making. The maya held December as the first month the only problem is that Christ was crucified in the Book of Mormon during the first month. Christ was not crucified in December it happened in April.

[Bernard Gui]

6 minutes ago, sam said:

That is the point sorenson was making. The maya held December as the first month the only problem is that Christ was crucified in the Book of Mormon during the first month. Christ was not crucified in December it happened in April.

So it all hangs on which calendar one chooses.

[sam]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

So it all hangs on which calendar one chooses.

There are so many things that supports North America as being the location were the Book of Mormon took place that the calendar is just one fact of many.

 

[sam]

2 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

Neither does the Book of Mormon. What it has is animals going south to escape a Jaredite famine. That isn't migration. That is a relocation due to drought. 

I know I have mentioned this before, but you must have missed that comment. Inventing something that isn't in the Book of Mormon, and then claiming that it supports only your model, is interesting, but not convincing.

Since I have responded to this comment, I'll make note from your map that you see a distinction between the sea east and the east sea, and the sea west and the west sea. That is interesting. On what do you base that, other than it makes it easier to figure out how to use the lakes? English prefers the adjective preceeding the noun, but we accept it following. That tells me that you have a very real possibility of translator choice. You also have the problem of the times when "sea" is unmarked. Apparently, it wasn't alway necessary to delineate the direction. 

Also, you appear to take things in the text pretty literally if you make a distinction between east sea and sea east--so where to you hav ethe sea north and the sea south? Most who use the Great Lakes make them fit into the scheme, but you can't do that because you have the sea east/east sea names.

Next, the Book of Mormon is pretty clear that Cumorah is north through the narrow neck. You have Cumorah to the east, and no reason to go through the narrow neck to get to it. It would be easier to avoid that area and just go east then a little north.

The Nephites have control of the land of Cumorah around 72BC. But loose it during the Nephites during the last battles of the Nephites and lamanites. But Cumorah is not on the same side as the land northward it was definetly controlled by the lamanites. That is why mormon has to ask permission from the lamanite King aaron if the Nephites can occupy Cumorah.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, sam said:

There are three venemous snakes that are native to the state of Ohio that borders Lake Erie. They are the Northern Copperhead, Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake, and the Eastern Timber Rattlesnake.

True. And all three would brumate in the cold winter months. They would not be out chasing flocks, poisoning people and then finally blocking the narrow neck of land year round.

Count the generations between the time the serpents block the path in Ether 9:33 and the time they are destroyed in Ether 10:19. I count seven. How do hibernating serpents block the narrow neck through seven generations? 

Besides the area you propose does not seem to fit for this scenario because the herds could just go around the east or west side of the neck blocked by the serpents.

[sam]

11 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

True. And all three would brumate in the cold winter months. They would not be out chasing flocks, poisoning people and then finally blocking the narrow neck of land year round.

Count the generations between the time the serpents block the path in Ether 9:33 and the time they are destroyed in Ether 10:19. I count seven. How do hibernating serpents block the narrow neck through seven generations? 

Besides the area you propose does not seem to fit for this scenario because the herds could just go around the east or west side of the neck blocked by the serpents.

 

 At one time animal and people moved south some people got bit by serpents and died. Some people made it southward. Until verse 33 it states the lord caused the people from going southward via the serpents. I don't know about you but if the lord wants something to happen the lord will make it happen. It sounds like the serpents got really vicious. these were not your regular serpents. The lord can impede or support anyone rajah even with serpents in the cold.

 

31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla.

32 And it came to pass that there were many of them which did perish by the way; nevertheless, there were some which fled into the land southward.

33 And it came to pass that the Lord did cause the serpents that they should pursue them no more, but that they should hedge up the way that the people could not pass, that whoso should attempt to pass might fall by the poisonous serpents.

[Bernard Gui]

Are you saying the Jaredites lived in Canada?

How did the Nephites guard a 700 mile southern border?

 

[Rajah Manchou]

7 minutes ago, sam said:

At one time animal and people moved south some people got bit by serpents and died. Some people made it southward. Until verse 33 it states the lord caused the people from going southward via the serpents.

And there were seven generations of kings between the time the Lord blocked the narrow neck with serpents and the time Lib (or the Lord) destroyed the serpents and opened up the path.

Yes, the Lord can block the path through Michigan, but the herds and people could still go southwards if they wanted by simply walking around the serpents. Unless the Lord put a force shield around Wisconsin and New York. 

If the beasts were truly blocked from the land southward than they would soon die off in the winter months for lack of food and shelter from the cold. If migratory beasts cannot migrate for towards a food source for seven generations they would go extinct. And then you have a completely different problem. What would the Jaredites eat? 

Ether 9:34 says that the food supply was already depleted through the dearth and the overconsumption of migratory beasts. How could they survive another seven generations of harsh winters when their food supplies are already gone? Why wouldn't they just go around the frozen serpents to the happy hunting ground in the south?

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, sam said:

There are three venemous snakes that are native to the state of Ohio that borders Lake Erie. They are the Northern Copperhead, Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake, and the Eastern Timber Rattlesnake.

Your narrow neck is not in Ohio. It is in farther north between two large lakes on a peninsula with a very different climate than Ohio. Michigan is at the southern part of this peninsula, and there is only one poisonous snake there, and they hide out in underground burrows in the winter.

Quote

"Reptiles are found throughout Michigan, although the only venomous species, the eastern massasauga rattlesnake, is seen only in the Lower Peninsula. Reptiles are cold-blooded, and so usually pass the cold winters of Michigan in frost-free areas, such as underground burrows (for snakes and land-dwelling turtles) or the bottoms of lakes and streams (for water-dwelling turtles)."

Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake "hibernation sites at high latitudes must protect snakes from subfreezing conditions for long periods of time. Thus hibernation is an important part of snake life histories in these regions. Despite this fact little is known about the hibernation ecology of north temperate snakes, and this lack of understanding regarding the factors that influence overwintering success may hinder management efforts for declining species. The Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake (Sistrurus catenatus catenatus) is a declining species which appears to have highly specific but poorly understood hibernation requirements."

 

[sam]

The bible and the Book of Mormon at one time talks about flying serpents we do not how it works in this case you would have to ask the lord.

[sam]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are you saying the Jaredites lived in Canada?

How did the Nephites guard a 700 mile southern border?

 

The were in the neck of land of land between Lake Huron and Lake Ontario that is not 700 hundred miles.

[Rajah Manchou]

59 minutes ago, sam said:

The bible and the Book of Mormon at one time talks about flying serpents we do not how it works in this case you would have to ask the lord.

Try Googling "flying serpents" instead:

Malay Peninsula FTW

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[sam]

5 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

And there were seven generations of kings between the time the Lord blocked the narrow neck with serpents and the time Lib (or the Lord) destroyed the serpents and opened up the path.

Yes, the Lord can block the path through Michigan, but the herds and people could still go southwards if they wanted by simply walking around the serpents. Unless the Lord put a force shield around Wisconsin and New York. 

If the beasts were truly blocked from the land southward than they would soon die off in the winter months for lack of food and shelter from the cold. If migratory beasts cannot migrate for towards a food source for seven generations they would go extinct. And then you have a completely different problem. What would the Jaredites eat? 

Ether 9:34 says that the food supply was already depleted through the dearth and the overconsumption of migratory beasts. How could they survive another seven generations of harsh winters when their food supplies are already gone? Why wouldn't they just go around the frozen serpents to the happy hunting ground in the south?

the lord was not trying to stop the buffalo but the Jaredites. And the following verse 35 states that the famine was over.

35 And it came to pass that when they had humbled themselves sufficiently before the Lord he did send rain upon the face of the earth; and the people began to revive again, and there began to be fruit in the north countries, and in all the countries round about. And the Lord did show forth his power unto them in preserving them from famine.

[RevTestament]

12 hours ago, sam said:

I have made my own book of Mormon map that I would like to get critical feed back for. I can't post images maybe because I'm a newbie of sorts.

In my research I have found the narrow pass mentioned in the Book of Mormon is not between the west sea and the east sea its between the east sea and the sea east.

The narrow neck is between the sea west and the sea east. The land desolation is between the east sea and sea west

But I would like to get constructive criticism of what works and what doesn't. If you see a discrepancy explain the discrepancy with the backing verses.

It is wrong. The End

P.S. River Sidon runs BY the land of Zarahemla. Where is your river Sidon? Gideon and Manti were south of Zarahemla. Gideon was on the east side of Sidon. They crossed over the river Sidon (apparently to west side) to get back to Zarahemla going down to it. They went UP to Gideon. That only works if the Sidon river runs NORTH or at least a branch of it.

[sam]

2 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

It is wrong. The End

P.S. River Sidon runs BY the land of Zarahemla. Where is your river Sidon? Gideon and Manti were south of Zarahemla. Gideon was on the east side of Sidon. They crossed over the river Sidon (apparently to west side) to get back to Zarahemla going down to it. They went UP to Gideon. That only works if the Sidon river runs NORTH or at least a branch of it.

I have the Mississippi has Sidon Gideon was not south of Zarahemla manti was but not Gideon. you would be correct to say that Gideon was on the east side of Sidon which on my map it is. I have the city of Zarahemla on the west side of sidon.

[Rajah Manchou]

5 minutes ago, sam said:

the lord was not trying to stop the buffalo but the Jaredites. And the following verse 35 states that the famine was over.

35 And it came to pass that when they had humbled themselves sufficiently before the Lord he did send rain upon the face of the earth; and the people began to revive again, and there began to be fruit in the north countries, and in all the countries round about. And the Lord did show forth his power unto them in preserving them from famine.

The famine was over, but the snakes still blocked the beasts from migrating towards food in the winter .. for SEVEN MORE generations following a massive drought. It'd be an ecological disaster.

But more importantly, the beasts wouldn't just hang around freezing. They'd walk around the narrow neck of land.

[sam]

10 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

It is wrong. The End

P.S. River Sidon runs BY the land of Zarahemla. Where is your river Sidon? Gideon and Manti were south of Zarahemla. Gideon was on the east side of Sidon. They crossed over the river Sidon (apparently to west side) to get back to Zarahemla going down to it. They went UP to Gideon. That only works if the Sidon river runs NORTH or at least a branch of it.

minon was fairly close to the land of Gideon minon is described as being above the land of Zarahemla.

24 Behold, we followed the camp of the Amlicites, and to our great astonishment, in the land of Minon, above the land of Zarahemla, in the course of the land of Nephi, we saw a numerous host of the Lamanites; and behold, the Amlicites have joined them;

[RevTestament]

9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

There is scant evidence that the Amerids of the Great Lakes region of 400 CE had a written language.

Please be more specific. What is this evidence from 400 CE? Thank you.