my book of mormon map

[sam]

 

36 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Yes, the Nephites used down to refer to elevation, like the Bible does. Thus when they are traveling from the first land of Nephi/Shilom they go DOWN to Zarahemla.

Yes, I referred to "the land of Manti " and not the city itself. Manti is to the south and the headwaters of the Sidon are near its borders. That puts the Sidon flowing north - the opposite direction of the Mississippi. The headwaters of the Mississippi aren't anywhere near your Manti.

21 days are in Mosiah. Alma traveled 8 days to Helam. Then they fled Helam and traveled a day to the Valley of Alma. They were in the wilderness 12 days when they got to Zarahemla for a total of either 20 or 21 days in travel less two days for the Sabbath. The waters of Mormon where they started were in the borders of the land of Shilom. Couldn't have been too far because the people traveled there to listen to him. I have it at about 30 miles.

Good luck. I hate to break your heart, but your model is wrong. Your map depends too much on Wayne May who ignores these details. Cheers.

Alma was traveling south from Gideon he passed the land of Zarahemla THEN  met the sons of Mosiah after he passed Zarahemla the sons of Mosiah were traveling towards Zarahemla. And this verse states nothing about the direction of the flow of Sidon. There are no verses that I know that refer to the direction of the flow of Sidon except that it either flows north to south or south to north.

2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.

[sam]

4 minutes ago, sam said:

 

Alma was traveling south from Gideon he passed the land of Zarahemla THEN  met the sons of Mosiah after he passed Zarahemla the sons of Mosiah were traveling towards Zarahemla. And this verse states nothing about the direction of the flow of Sidon. There are no verses that I know that refer to the direction of the flow of Sidon except that it either flows north to south or south to north.

2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.

oops posted the wrong verse but that last verse is still a good verse

1 And now it came to pass that as Alma was journeying from the land of Gideon southward, away to the land of Manti, behold, to his astonishment, he met with the sons of Mosiah journeying towards the land of Zarahemla.

[sam]

27 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Sam where did you get that map?

http://faculty.humanities.uci.edu/tcthorne/colonialhistory/Moundbuilders.html

[sam]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nephites talked neither of travel by horse nor use of them for military purposes such as patrolling and guarding a frontier.

You did not address the difficulty of guarding a 700 mile border with ground troops.

New York is not Canada. You did not offer evidence of a massive advanced civilization like the Jaredites in Canada, and now  you need to show evidence in New York.

I'm seeing lots of issues.

See my post on the exact location on the waters of Ripliancum. You will see that the Jaredites were in the state of New York.

 

[sam]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Yes, the Nephites used down to refer to elevation, like the Bible does. Thus when they are traveling from the first land of Nephi/Shilom they go DOWN to Zarahemla.

Yes, I referred to "the land of Manti " and not the city itself. Manti is to the south and the headwaters of the Sidon are near its borders. That puts the Sidon flowing north - the opposite direction of the Mississippi. The headwaters of the Mississippi aren't anywhere near your Manti.

21 days are in Mosiah. Alma traveled 8 days to Helam. Then they fled Helam and traveled a day to the Valley of Alma. They were in the wilderness 12 days when they got to Zarahemla for a total of either 20 or 21 days in travel less two days for the Sabbath. The waters of Mormon where they started were in the borders of the land of Shilom. Couldn't have been too far because the people traveled there to listen to him. I have it at about 30 miles.

Good luck. I hate to break your heart, but your model is wrong. Your map depends too much on Wayne May who ignores these details. Cheers.

I believe the Shilom area is the hills of Tennessee that's why they had to go down.

Here is my belief of where the waters of Mormon are

There is also a good candidate for the waters of Mormon found in Missouri. Based on the geography and features of the suggested place and the description given by the Book of Mormon and D&C.

This is how Alma described the waters of Mormon Mosiah 18:5

5 Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king.

What sticks out is it is described as a fountain of pure water.

Big Springs, Missouri fits this description. Big Springs is a single spring that has a daily out flow of 286 million gallons per day. Enough that the springs creates white water as it enters what appears to be glacial crystal clear pool of water. You can see the white water that is produced from the out flow of the spring. The pool of water is surrounded by a thicket of trees.

http://www.scienceviews.com/parks/bigspring.html

How do we know that the waters of Mormon should be in Missouri the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants helps answer that question?

Alma says in from Mosiah 18:4, 31

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land

31 And these things were done in the borders of the land, that they might not come to the knowledge of the king.

So from these verses we learn that the Waters of Mormon are near the border of the land.

So how do we learn where the borders of the land are located that is deduced from D&C 54:8 when missionaries were sent out to Missouri. Missouri is stated as the borders of the Lamanite lands.

8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

The borders of the Lamanites is located in Missouri just like the Waters of Mormon would be located in Missouri. Its large outflow of water could easily be described as a fountain in its simplest terms 

[Atheist Mormon]

On 9/10/2016 at 8:29 PM, sam said:

my book of mormon map

 

Is pure fantasy 

[sam]

2 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Is pure fantasy 

That's a matter of opinion

[sam]

5 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Is pure fantasy 

 

Here is the best dna evidence for the Book of Mormon

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/best-book-of-mormon-dna-evidence-x2aj.html

[Atheist Mormon]

3 minutes ago, sam said:

That's a matter of opinion

sam,

It's true, but you cannot run your life on it....You have to have real dollars to run your business. You cannot rely on Monopoly money.

[sam]

6 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

sam,

It's true, but you cannot run your life on it....You have to have real dollars to run your business. You cannot rely on Monopoly money.

Are you going to take your money with you when you die

[sam]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Yes, the Nephites used down to refer to elevation, like the Bible does. Thus when they are traveling from the first land of Nephi/Shilom they go DOWN to Zarahemla.

Yes, I referred to "the land of Manti " and not the city itself. Manti is to the south and the headwaters of the Sidon are near its borders. That puts the Sidon flowing north - the opposite direction of the Mississippi. The headwaters of the Mississippi aren't anywhere near your Manti.

21 days are in Mosiah. Alma traveled 8 days to Helam. Then they fled Helam and traveled a day to the Valley of Alma. They were in the wilderness 12 days when they got to Zarahemla for a total of either 20 or 21 days in travel less two days for the Sabbath. The waters of Mormon where they started were in the borders of the land of Shilom. Couldn't have been too far because the people traveled there to listen to him. I have it at about 30 miles.

Good luck. I hate to break your heart, but your model is wrong. Your map depends too much on Wayne May who ignores these details. Cheers.

I do not think the city of Manti was close to the head of the waters of Sidon for a couple of reasons one is it states the border of manti not the actual city. What I think Alma is trying to do is draw a line around the major geographical points that define the Nephite lands. That why it states through the border of manti and not next to. It just comparing the major geographical features.

27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 9/10/2016 at 8:38 PM, Calm said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Biological_Corridor

"The Mesoamerican Biological Corridor (MBC) is a region that consists of Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, and some southern states of Mexico. The area acts as a natural land bridge from South America to North America, which is important for species who use the bridge in migration."

I am trying to imagine which animals are using that bridge for migration.  I realize that the birds will, but which land animals?  The article doesn't name any.

[sam]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am trying to imagine which animals are using that bridge for migration.  I realize that the birds will, but which land animals?  The article doesn't name any.

I asked him the same question

[Robert F. Smith]

2 minutes ago, sam said:

I asked him the same question

her

[ksfisher]

21 minutes ago, sam said:

I asked him the same question

The Book of Mormon never speaks about animals migrating.  It was the Jaredites flocks that were fleeing before tne poisonous serpants that is being refered to.

"their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward"

Ether 9:31

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by ksfisher

[sam]

27 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

her

Oops sorry 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, sam said:

See my post on the exact location on the waters of Ripliancum. You will see that the Jaredites were in the state of New York.

 

Where in Canada or New York is there evidence of a civilization like the Jaredites? Third time asked.

[sam]

13 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The Book of Mormon never speaks about animals migrating.  It was the Jaredites flocks that were fleeing before tne poisonous serpants that is being refered to.

"their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward"

Ether 9:31

 

No the Nephites talked about migrating land mammals too.

Mosiah 18

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.

Alma 22

31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.

 

[ksfisher]

23 hours ago, sam said:

There are three venemous snakes that are native to the state of Ohio that borders Lake Erie. They are the Northern Copperhead, Eastern Massasauga Rattlesnake, and the Eastern Timber Rattlesnake.

As Rajah said, and you ignored, the Jaredites would have had no problem traveling in Michigan during the colder months as the snakes would be dormant.  

The only solution is to place the land brigde in a warmer climate where snakes could be active year round.

[sam]

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Where in Canada or New York is there evidence of a civilization like the Jaredites? Third time asked.

At this point the evidence is not very good. There is some late archaic sites that date to the same period of the jaredites. I do not know what types of artifacts are found for the late archaic sites. I not done much research in that area. I primarily have done research on the adena being the jaredites. But that area is covered in farm lands I do not know how many sites were destroyed.

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, sam said:

At this point the evidence is not very good. There is some late archaic sites that date to the same period of the jaredites. I do not know what types of artifacts are found for the late archaic sites. I not done much research in that area. I primarily have done research on the adena being the jaredites. But that area is covered in farm lands I do not know how many sites were destroyed.

Here are some things that could be discovered. If farmers removed them, there may be some record of that. This could be important for your thesis.

Quote

 

Ether 10

22 And they were exceedingly industrious, and they did buy and sell and traffic one with another, that they might get gain.

 23 And they did work in all manner of ore, and they did make gold, and silver, and iron, and brass, and all manner of metals; and they did dig it out of the earth; wherefore, they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper. And they did work all manner of fine work.

 24 And they did have silks, and fine-twined linen; and they did work all manner of cloth, that they might clothe themselves from their nakedness.

 25 And they did make all manner of tools to till the earth, both to plow and to sow, to reap and to hoe, and also to thrash.

 26 And they did make all manner of tools with which they did work their beasts.

 27 And they did make all manner of weapons of war. And they did work all manner of work of exceedingly curious workmanship.

 

 

[Rajah Manchou]

12 hours ago, sam said:

At this point the evidence is not very good. There is some late archaic sites that date to the same period of the jaredites. I do not know what types of artifacts are found for the late archaic sites. I not done much research in that area. I primarily have done research on the adena being the jaredites. But that area is covered in farm lands I do not know how many sites were destroyed.

21 And they did preserve the land southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants.

I don't think the Jaredites would stay so far north all those centuries. Nothing against Canada, its a great place to live so long as you have heaters and warm clothing and imported food. However, ancient civilizations numbering in the millions would not choose to remain in colder climates so that they could preserve their warmer southern wilderness for hunting.

And I'm curious how the Heartlanders explain silk. Silk was only known in Asia during that period. The Meso camp argues for llama hair, pineapple fiber or the maguey plant or possibly silk from a type of moth or butterfly found in Mexico. But these aren't options for Michigan. Where did the Canadian Jaredites get silk?

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Rajah Manchou

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

 Where did the Canadian Jaredites get silk?

 

Perhaps, when we find this Canadian silk, it will all have "Made in China" tags on them.

[Rajah Manchou]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps, when we find this Canadian silk, it will all have "Made in China" tags on them.

Or maybe they imported pineapple silk from the Olmecs. : )
I honestly respect the effort and the motives, but the Heartland model hurts my brain.

I'm not even convinced that there is much going for this model in terms of things said by early leaders. Saw this Brigham Young quote the other day:

"Nor do I expect we shall stop at Arizona, but I look forward to the time when settlements of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will extend right through to the city of Old Mexico, and from thence on through Central America to the land where the Nephites flourished in the Golden era of their history, and the great backbone of the American continent be filled, north and south, with the cities and temples of the people of God. In this great work I anticipate the children of Nephi, of Laman and lemuel [native Indians] will take no small part." - Brigham Young, 1876

Strict interpretations of apostolic opinions on Book of Mormon geography only serve to cancel out all possible options. You can't pick a place on earth without implying somebody somewhere was a liar.

[rodheadlee]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am trying to imagine which animals are using that bridge for migration.  I realize that the birds will, but which land animals?  The article doesn't name any.

Jaguars for one.