my book of mormon map

[sam]

I have made my own book of Mormon map that I would like to get critical feed back for. I can't post images maybe because I'm a newbie of sorts.

In my research I have found the narrow pass mentioned in the Book of Mormon is not between the west sea and the east sea its between the east sea and the sea east.

The narrow neck is between the sea west and the sea east. The land desolation is between the east sea and sea west

But I would like to get constructive criticism of what works and what doesn't. If you see a discrepancy explain the discrepancy with the backing verses.

The link is to my map I will be posting chapters and more research as I go. I have a lot that can be posted.

https://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/alma-chapter-22-bom-map.html
 

[waveslider]

I haven't studied any of the settings of the Book of Mormon lands because it is so subjective, but I do have one question that just doesn't seem to fit very well, unless they did everything in the Summer months only. If this is indeed where these places were then why don't they mention anything about the cold, snow and ice? When they mention what they wore it sounds pretty warm as in this verse that was set in the Zarahemla area:

"But behold, their naked skins and their bare heads were exposed to the sharp swords of the Nephites; yea, behold they were pierced and smitten, yea, and did fall exceedingly fast before the swords of the Nephites; and they began to be swept down, even as the soldier of Moroni had prophesied."
Alma 44:18

Naked skins meant that they weren't wearing to many clothes in the way of protection. I got cold South of where Zarahemla is said to be on your map, when I severed my mission in Kentucky. The only times it would have felt good to have next to nothing on, would only be for a few short months out the year, and that is under Southern Zarahemla. Brrrr!

Edited September 11, 2016 by waveslider
Forgot quotation marks

[sam]

3 minutes ago, waveslider said:

I haven't studied any of the settings of the Book of Mormon lands because it is so subjective, but I do have one question that just doesn't seem to fit very well, unless they did everything in the Summer months only. If this is indeed where these places were then why don't they mention anything about the cold, snow and ice? When they mention what they wore it sounds pretty warm as in this verse that was set in the Zarahemla area:

But behold, their naked skins and their bare heads were exposed to the sharp swords of the Nephites; yea, behold they were pierced and smitten, yea, and did fall exceedingly fast before the swords of the Nephites; and they began to be swept down, even as the soldier of Moroni had prophesied.
Alma 44:18

Naked skins meant that they weren't wearing to many clothes in the way of protection. I got cold South of where Zarahemla is said to be on your map, when I severed my mission in Kentucky. The only times it would have felt good to have next to nothing on, would only be for a few short months out the year, and that is under Southern Zarahemla. Brrrr!

Here is some of my research on the subject.

Seasons of War and winter

Wars mentioned in the Book of Mormon were fought primarily between the first and fourth months mentioned in the Book of Mormon. During Nephite and Lamanite battles the Lamanites are described as wearing loin cloths. If the Nephite and Lamanite in the area between the Great Lakes and the Gulf of Mexico not going beyond the Rocky Mountains. How could the Lamanites wear loin cloths in the middle of winter when temperatures can drop below freezing? In the Hebrew calendar the first month is between March and April. This would mean that the Majority of wars were fought between spring and summer. Wearing loin cloths would not be a problem. But I know of one occasion mentioned in the Book of Mormon that a battle was fought during the winter and luckily it gives us a description of what the Lamanites were wearing Alma 49:6 “very thick garments to cover their nakedness”. The Lamanites known to wear loin clothes prepared themselves for battle with armor and thick garments. In this example there is obviously no conflict because of the wearing of thick garments.

Joseph Smith easily could have used the current Roman calendar to use for the Book of Mormon if it is a work of fiction. John Sorenson who is a famous Mesoamerican Archeologist espousing the Mesoamerican Book of Mormon geography model. He wrote the Mormon Codex considered the bible of the Mesoamerican Geography model. He at one time had the Nephites using a calendar similar to the Roman calendar. The one problem with this is that it would mean that Christ was crucified in January instead of April. If the Hebrew calendar is used this is not an issue.

Other verses that show that the Book of Mormon had seasons fitting the Heartland model are descriptions of migrating beast that migrated based on the season (Mosiah 18:4). Mesoamerica does not have migrating land mammals.

In Alma 46:40 it describes what sound like North America’s flu season fevers being common during the winter months of North America “there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land.”

James Adair wrote that the Cherokee Indians keep manner of time same as the Hebrews. While doing research I have noticed the same similarities with the Natchez of Mississippi.

“This nation begins its year in the month of March, as was the practice for a long time.”
(Swanton 1909 pg. 109)

The Natchez have 13 months in their calendar but that might be to account for the fact that the cycle of the Moon is longer than 365 days. The cycle of the moon is 375 days.

The Natchez also break up the day similar to the Hebrews.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, sam said:

 

Other verses that show that the Book of Mormon had seasons fitting the Heartland model are descriptions of migrating beast that migrated based on the season (Mosiah 18:4). Mesoamerica does not have migrating land mammals.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Biological_Corridor

"The Mesoamerican Biological Corridor (MBC) is a region that consists of Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, and some southern states of Mexico. The area acts as a natural land bridge from South America to North America, which is important for species who use the bridge in migration."

[sam]

26 minutes ago, waveslider said:

I haven't studied any of the settings of the Book of Mormon lands because it is so subjective, but I do have one question that just doesn't seem to fit very well, unless they did everything in the Summer months only. If this is indeed where these places were then why don't they mention anything about the cold, snow and ice? When they mention what they wore it sounds pretty warm as in this verse that was set in the Zarahemla area:

"But behold, their naked skins and their bare heads were exposed to the sharp swords of the Nephites; yea, behold they were pierced and smitten, yea, and did fall exceedingly fast before the swords of the Nephites; and they began to be swept down, even as the soldier of Moroni had prophesied."
Alma 44:18

Naked skins meant that they weren't wearing to many clothes in the way of protection. I got cold South of where Zarahemla is said to be on your map, when I severed my mission in Kentucky. The only times it would have felt good to have next to nothing on, would only be for a few short months out the year, and that is under Southern Zarahemla. Brrrr!

Here is the link that states Sorensons belief that the Nephite year began in December instead of using the Hebrew calender.

These considerations lead Sorenson and others to conclude that the Nephite year may have begun in late December, perhaps with the winter solstice (Dec. 21/22), as did many other ancient peoples.^[

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Warfare/Seasonality

[sam]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_Biological_Corridor

"The Mesoamerican Biological Corridor (MBC) is a region that consists of Belize, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, and some southern states of Mexico. The area acts as a natural land bridge from South America to North America, which is important for species who use the bridge in migration."

Central America has no migrating land mammals if you know of one please inform me. I do not think that south America does not have migrating land mammals if it does please inform me.

North America has migrating buffalo that the native Americans used as a major food source.

[waveslider]

 

I find it amazing that Alma and Amulek could survive in the middle of January, (if I'm guessing right according to what you said about the months in the Hebrew calendar) naked, starving and weak in a cell where they weren't given anything to eat or drink, so I think it would be safe to assume that they wouldn't have gone to the extra effort of heating the jail for them either:

"22 And many such things, yea, all manner of such things did they say unto them; and thus they did mock them for many days. And they did withhold food from them that they might hunger, and water that they might thirst; and they also did take from them their clothes that they were naked; and thus they were bound with strong cords, and confined in prison.
23  And it came to pass after they had thus suffered for many days, (and it was on the twelfth day, in the tenth month, *in the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi) that the chief judge over the land of Ammonihah and many of their teachers and their lawyers went in unto the prison where Alma and Amulek were bound with cords."
Alma 14:22-23

[Lemuel]

Sam, probably oughta move the line for the land desolation over a bit to include Detroit.

[waveslider]

17 minutes ago, sam said:

Here is the link that states Sorensons belief that the Nephite year began in December instead of using the Hebrew calender.

These considerations lead Sorenson and others to conclude that the Nephite year may have begun in late December, perhaps with the winter solstice (Dec. 21/22), as did many other ancient peoples.^[

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Warfare/Seasonality

Okay. So I'm confused here. So what do you think the Nephites started their first month on? You also posted this:

 

45 minutes ago, sam said:

In the Hebrew calendar the first month is between March and April. This would mean that the Majority of wars were fought between spring and summer. Wearing loin cloths would not be a problem. But I know of one occasion mentioned in the Book of Mormon that a battle was fought during the winter and luckily it gives us a description of what the Lamanites were wearing Alma 49:6 “very thick garments to cover their nakedness”. The Lamanites known to wear loin clothes prepared themselves for battle with armor and thick garments. In this example there is obviously no conflict because of the wearing of thick garments.

 

[Bernard Gui]

46 minutes ago, sam said:

Here is some of my research on the subject.

Seasons of War and winter

Wars mentioned in the Book of Mormon were fought primarily between the first and fourth months mentioned in the Book of Mormon. During Nephite and Lamanite battles the Lamanites are described as wearing loin cloths. If the Nephite and Lamanite in the area between the Great Lakes and the Gulf of Mexico not going beyond the Rocky Mountains. How could the Lamanites wear loin cloths in the middle of winter when temperatures can drop below freezing? In the Hebrew calendar the first month is between March and April. This would mean that the Majority of wars were fought between spring and summer. Wearing loin cloths would not be a problem. But I know of one occasion mentioned in the Book of Mormon that a battle was fought during the winter and luckily it gives us a description of what the Lamanites were wearing Alma 49:6 “very thick garments to cover their nakedness”. The Lamanites known to wear loin clothes prepared themselves for battle with armor and thick garments. In this example there is obviously no conflict because of the wearing of thick garments.

Joseph Smith easily could have used the current Roman calendar to use for the Book of Mormon if it is a work of fiction. John Sorenson who is a famous Mesoamerican Archeologist espousing the Mesoamerican Book of Mormon geography model. He wrote the Mormon Codex considered the bible of the Mesoamerican Geography model. He at one time had the Nephites using a calendar similar to the Roman calendar. The one problem with this is that it would mean that Christ was crucified in January instead of April. If the Hebrew calendar is used this is not an issue.

Other verses that show that the Book of Mormon had seasons fitting the Heartland model are descriptions of migrating beast that migrated based on the season (Mosiah 18:4). Mesoamerica does not have migrating land mammals.

In Alma 46:40 it describes what sound like North America’s flu season fevers being common during the winter months of North America “there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land.”

James Adair wrote that the Cherokee Indians keep manner of time same as the Hebrews. While doing research I have noticed the same similarities with the Natchez of Mississippi.

“This nation begins its year in the month of March, as was the practice for a long time.”
(Swanton 1909 pg. 109)

The Natchez have 13 months in their calendar but that might be to account for the fact that the cycle of the Moon is longer than 365 days. The cycle of the moon is 375 days.

The Natchez also break up the day similar to the Hebrews.

Have you considered the wet/dry seasonal changes in Central America?

[sam]

22 minutes ago, waveslider said:

 

I find it amazing that Alma and Amulek could survive in the middle of January, (if I'm guessing right according to what you said about the months in the Hebrew calendar) naked, starving and weak in a cell where they weren't given anything to eat or drink, so I think it would be safe to assume that they wouldn't have gone to the extra effort of heating the jail for them either:

"22 And many such things, yea, all manner of such things did they say unto them; and thus they did mock them for many days. And they did withhold food from them that they might hunger, and water that they might thirst; and they also did take from them their clothes that they were naked; and thus they were bound with strong cords, and confined in prison.
23  And it came to pass after they had thus suffered for many days, (and it was on the twelfth day, in the tenth month, *in the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi) that the chief judge over the land of Ammonihah and many of their teachers and their lawyers went in unto the prison where Alma and Amulek were bound with cords."
Alma 14:22-23

I have ammonihah in the state of Missouri. If they wanted to kill alma and amulek from just the cold that could have definitely happened. It's completely dependent upon if they kept the temperature of the prison in a survivable state.

[sam]

22 minutes ago, waveslider said:

 

I find it amazing that Alma and Amulek could survive in the middle of January, (if I'm guessing right according to what you said about the months in the Hebrew calendar) naked, starving and weak in a cell where they weren't given anything to eat or drink, so I think it would be safe to assume that they wouldn't have gone to the extra effort of heating the jail for them either:

"22 And many such things, yea, all manner of such things did they say unto them; and thus they did mock them for many days. And they did withhold food from them that they might hunger, and water that they might thirst; and they also did take from them their clothes that they were naked; and thus they were bound with strong cords, and confined in prison.
23  And it came to pass after they had thus suffered for many days, (and it was on the twelfth day, in the tenth month, *in the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi) that the chief judge over the land of Ammonihah and many of their teachers and their lawyers went in unto the prison where Alma and Amulek were bound with cords."
Alma 14:22-23

I have ammonihah in the state of Missouri. If they wanted to kill alma and amulek from just the cold that could have definitely happened. It's completely dependent upon if they kept the temperature of the prison in a survivable state.

[sam]

22 minutes ago, waveslider said:

 

I find it amazing that Alma and Amulek could survive in the middle of January, (if I'm guessing right according to what you said about the months in the Hebrew calendar) naked, starving and weak in a cell where they weren't given anything to eat or drink, so I think it would be safe to assume that they wouldn't have gone to the extra effort of heating the jail for them either:

"22 And many such things, yea, all manner of such things did they say unto them; and thus they did mock them for many days. And they did withhold food from them that they might hunger, and water that they might thirst; and they also did take from them their clothes that they were naked; and thus they were bound with strong cords, and confined in prison.
23  And it came to pass after they had thus suffered for many days, (and it was on the twelfth day, in the tenth month, *in the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi) that the chief judge over the land of Ammonihah and many of their teachers and their lawyers went in unto the prison where Alma and Amulek were bound with cords."
Alma 14:22-23

I have ammonihah in the state of Missouri. If they wanted to kill alma and amulek from just the cold that could have definitely happened. It's completely dependent upon if they kept the temperature of the prison in a survivable state.

[sam]

It preloads my reply with the last message I posted I did not mean to repost that three times.

 

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, sam said:

Central America has no migrating land mammals if you know of one please inform me. 

So all the government hassle and money spent on animals that don't exist?

[sam]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you considered the wet/dry seasonal changes in Central America?

I'm not sure what your point is.

[sam]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

So all the government hassle and money spent on animals that don't exist?

I will take that as no migrating land mammals in central or south America.

[sam]

24 minutes ago, waveslider said:

Okay. So I'm confused here. So what do you think the Nephites started their first month on? You also posted this:

 

 

3NE 8:5 states that the destructing of the land of the Nephites and Lamanites precluding Christ crucifixion was in the first month what we know as April.

 5 And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.

Same as the Hebrew calendar.

[sam]

26 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you considered the wet/dry seasonal changes in Central America?

what do you mean by wet and dry seasons.

[sam]

37 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

Sam, probably oughta move the line for the land desolation over a bit to include Detroit.

nice one I like that 

[Brant Gardner]

41 minutes ago, sam said:

I will take that as no migrating land mammals in central or south America.

Neither does the Book of Mormon. What it has is animals going south to escape a Jaredite famine. That isn't migration. That is a relocation due to drought. 

I know I have mentioned this before, but you must have missed that comment. Inventing something that isn't in the Book of Mormon, and then claiming that it supports only your model, is interesting, but not convincing.

Since I have responded to this comment, I'll make note from your map that you see a distinction between the sea east and the east sea, and the sea west and the west sea. That is interesting. On what do you base that, other than it makes it easier to figure out how to use the lakes? English prefers the adjective preceeding the noun, but we accept it following. That tells me that you have a very real possibility of translator choice. You also have the problem of the times when "sea" is unmarked. Apparently, it wasn't alway necessary to delineate the direction. 

Also, you appear to take things in the text pretty literally if you make a distinction between east sea and sea east--so where to you hav ethe sea north and the sea south? Most who use the Great Lakes make them fit into the scheme, but you can't do that because you have the sea east/east sea names.

Next, the Book of Mormon is pretty clear that Cumorah is north through the narrow neck. You have Cumorah to the east, and no reason to go through the narrow neck to get to it. It would be easier to avoid that area and just go east then a little north.

[sam]

3 minutes ago, Brant Gardner said:

Neither does the Book of Mormon. What it has is animals going south to escape a Jaredite famine. That isn't migration. That is a relocation due to drought. 

I know I have mentioned this before, but you must have missed that comment. Inventing something that isn't in the Book of Mormon, and then claiming that it supports only your model, is interesting, but not convincing.

Since I have responded to this comment, I'll make note from your map that you see a distinction between the sea east and the east sea, and the sea west and the west sea. That is interesting. On what do you base that, other than it makes it easier to figure out how to use the lakes? English prefers the adjective preceeding the noun, but we accept it following. That tells me that you have a very real possibility of translator choice. You also have the problem of the times when "sea" is unmarked. Apparently, it wasn't alway necessary to delineate the direction. 

Also, you appear to take things in the text pretty literally if you make a distinction between east sea and sea east--so where to you hav ethe sea north and the sea south? Most who use the Great Lakes make them fit into the scheme, but you can't do that because you have the sea east/east sea names.

Next, the Book of Mormon is pretty clear that Cumorah is north through the narrow neck. You have Cumorah to the east, and no reason to go through the narrow neck to get to it. It would be easier to avoid that area and just go east then a little north.

I'm pretty sure the Book of Mormon clear that they had migrating animals(buffalo)

Mosiah 18:4

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.

Ether 9:34

34 And it came to pass that the people did follow the course of the beasts, and did devour the carcasses of them which fell by the way, until they had devoured them all. Now when the people saw that they must perish they began to repent of their iniquities and cry unto the Lord.

 

[sam]

15 minutes ago, Brant Gardner said:

Neither does the Book of Mormon. What it has is animals going south to escape a Jaredite famine. That isn't migration. That is a relocation due to drought. 

I know I have mentioned this before, but you must have missed that comment. Inventing something that isn't in the Book of Mormon, and then claiming that it supports only your model, is interesting, but not convincing.

Since I have responded to this comment, I'll make note from your map that you see a distinction between the sea east and the east sea, and the sea west and the west sea. That is interesting. On what do you base that, other than it makes it easier to figure out how to use the lakes? English prefers the adjective preceeding the noun, but we accept it following. That tells me that you have a very real possibility of translator choice. You also have the problem of the times when "sea" is unmarked. Apparently, it wasn't alway necessary to delineate the direction. 

Also, you appear to take things in the text pretty literally if you make a distinction between east sea and sea east--so where to you hav ethe sea north and the sea south? Most who use the Great Lakes make them fit into the scheme, but you can't do that because you have the sea east/east sea names.

Next, the Book of Mormon is pretty clear that Cumorah is north through the narrow neck. You have Cumorah to the east, and no reason to go through the narrow neck to get to it. It would be easier to avoid that area and just go east then a little north.

oops forgot a verse. Alma 22:31

31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.

[sam]

30 minutes ago, Brant Gardner said:

Neither does the Book of Mormon. What it has is animals going south to escape a Jaredite famine. That isn't migration. That is a relocation due to drought. 

I know I have mentioned this before, but you must have missed that comment. Inventing something that isn't in the Book of Mormon, and then claiming that it supports only your model, is interesting, but not convincing.

Since I have responded to this comment, I'll make note from your map that you see a distinction between the sea east and the east sea, and the sea west and the west sea. That is interesting. On what do you base that, other than it makes it easier to figure out how to use the lakes? English prefers the adjective preceeding the noun, but we accept it following. That tells me that you have a very real possibility of translator choice. You also have the problem of the times when "sea" is unmarked. Apparently, it wasn't alway necessary to delineate the direction. 

Also, you appear to take things in the text pretty literally if you make a distinction between east sea and sea east--so where to you hav ethe sea north and the sea south? Most who use the Great Lakes make them fit into the scheme, but you can't do that because you have the sea east/east sea names.

Next, the Book of Mormon is pretty clear that Cumorah is north through the narrow neck. You have Cumorah to the east, and no reason to go through the narrow neck to get to it. It would be easier to avoid that area and just go east then a little north.

There are verses that specifically mention a east sea and another verse will say sea east and the same as west sea and sea west.

1) East Sea (Lake Erie): Alma 50:8, Alma 50:13, Alma 52:13

2) Sea East (Lake Ontario) Alma 22:27, Helaman 3:8, Helaman 11:20

3) West Sea (Lake Michigan) Alma 22:32-33, Alma 50:11, Alma 52:11-12, Alma 53:8, Alma 63:5, Helaman 4:17,

4) Sea West (Lake Huron) Alma 22:27, Helaman 3:8, Helaman 11:20

5) Sea South (Gulf of Mexico) Helaman 3:8

6) North Sea (Lake Superior) Helaman 3:8

In Mormon during the last battles the dividing line was the narrow pass they were in the land northward. Cumorah during Mormon chapter 3 was controlled by the Lamanites and from what I can tell at this time would be considered lamanite land or the land southward.

Mormon 3:5

5 And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward.

Mormon 6:2

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

I have that sectioned mapped out as soon as I'm done posting the Book of Alma I will post Mormons section for scrutiny

[sam]

37 minutes ago, Brant Gardner said:

Neither does the Book of Mormon. What it has is animals going south to escape a Jaredite famine. That isn't migration. That is a relocation due to drought. 

I know I have mentioned this before, but you must have missed that comment. Inventing something that isn't in the Book of Mormon, and then claiming that it supports only your model, is interesting, but not convincing.

Since I have responded to this comment, I'll make note from your map that you see a distinction between the sea east and the east sea, and the sea west and the west sea. That is interesting. On what do you base that, other than it makes it easier to figure out how to use the lakes? English prefers the adjective preceeding the noun, but we accept it following. That tells me that you have a very real possibility of translator choice. You also have the problem of the times when "sea" is unmarked. Apparently, it wasn't alway necessary to delineate the direction. 

Also, you appear to take things in the text pretty literally if you make a distinction between east sea and sea east--so where to you hav ethe sea north and the sea south? Most who use the Great Lakes make them fit into the scheme, but you can't do that because you have the sea east/east sea names.

Next, the Book of Mormon is pretty clear that Cumorah is north through the narrow neck. You have Cumorah to the east, and no reason to go through the narrow neck to get to it. It would be easier to avoid that area and just go east then a little north.

The only thing I can say to the narrators voice is that everything is fitting extremely well. That's why I'm looking for scrutiny of my map. I hope to post all the relevant chapters in the Book of Alma and Mormon tomorrow.and see how it turns out.