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my book of mormon map


sam

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Posted
5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Please be more specific. What is this evidence from 400 CE? Thank you.

how did the mik maq get Egyptian hieroglyphs I can guarantee it was before 400CE

Posted
20 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

It is wrong. The End :)

P.S. River Sidon runs BY the land of Zarahemla. Where is your river Sidon? Gideon and Manti were south of Zarahemla. Gideon was on the east side of Sidon. They crossed over the river Sidon (apparently to west side) to get back to Zarahemla going down to it. They went UP to Gideon. That only works if the Sidon river runs NORTH or at least a branch of it.

the city of Zarahemla is on the banks of Sidon. Sidon runs through the Land of Zarahemla.I interpret above as being north of Zarahemla. I interpret up as talking about elevation not direction. there is no verse that Sidon runs from south to north. I have to go to church very soon I will be back

Posted
26 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

It is wrong. The End :)

P.S. River Sidon runs BY the land of Zarahemla. Where is your river Sidon? Gideon and Manti were south of Zarahemla. Gideon was on the east side of Sidon. They crossed over the river Sidon (apparently to west side) to get back to Zarahemla going down to it. They went UP to Gideon. That only works if the Sidon river runs NORTH or at least a branch of it.

How would you interpret above when it sates that minon was above the land of Zarahemla.

24 Behold, we followed the camp of the Amlicites, and to our great astonishment, in the land of Minon, above the land of Zarahemla, in the course of the land of Nephi, we saw a numerous host of the Lamanites; and behold, the Amlicites have joined them;

Posted
31 minutes ago, sam said:

How would you interpret above when it sates that minon was above the land of Zarahemla.

24 Behold, we followed the camp of the Amlicites, and to our great astonishment, in the land of Minon, above the land of Zarahemla, in the course of the land of Nephi, we saw a numerous host of the Lamanites; and behold, the Amlicites have joined them;

higher in elevation

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sam said:

The were in the neck of land of land between Lake Huron and Lake Ontario that is not 700 hundred miles.

According to your captions and boundaries of the last map, the southern border stretched from around Jefferson City, MO, to around Cleveland, OH, about 700 miles.

The Nephites guarded that border with their armies to prevent the Lamanites from getting any more of the land other than the Land of Nephi.

Are you saying the Jaredites were in Canada?

Edited by Bernard Gui
Posted
1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

It is wrong. The End :)

P.S. River Sidon runs BY the land of Zarahemla. Where is your river Sidon? Gideon and Manti were south of Zarahemla. Gideon was on the east side of Sidon. They crossed over the river Sidon (apparently to west side) to get back to Zarahemla going down to it. They went UP to Gideon. That only works if the Sidon river runs NORTH or at least a branch of it.

In fact when the lamanites retreated they retreated north. If Gideon was south of zarahemla they would have retreated straight to where the Nephites were 

alma 2

36 And they fled before the Nephites towards the wilderness which was west and north, away beyond the borders of the land; and the Nephites did pursue them with their might, and did slay them.

Posted
10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

According to your captions and boundaries of the last map, the southern border stretched from around Jefferson City, MO, to around Cleveland, OH, about 700 miles.

The Nephites guarded that border with their armies to prevent the Lamanites from getting any more of the land other than the Land of Nephi.

Are you saying the Jaredites were in Canada?

That's not the narrow neck the narrow neck is between Lake Huron and Lake Erie 

Posted
7 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

True. And all three would brumate in the cold winter months. They would not be out chasing flocks, poisoning people and then finally blocking the narrow neck of land year round.

Count the generations between the time the serpents block the path in Ether 9:33 and the time they are destroyed in Ether 10:19. I count seven. How do hibernating serpents block the narrow neck through seven generations? 

Besides the area you propose does not seem to fit for this scenario because the herds could just go around the east or west side of the neck blocked by the serpents.

UgHyDsiuSI-3000x3000.png

The buffalo also migrated through that narrow neck of land between Lake Huron and Lake Erie 

Posted
14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

According to your captions and boundaries of the last map, the southern border stretched from around Jefferson City, MO, to around Cleveland, OH, about 700 miles.

The Nephites guarded that border with their armies to prevent the Lamanites from getting any more of the land other than the Land of Nephi.

Are you saying the Jaredites were in Canada?

Yes the Jaredites were in the area between Lake Huron and Lake Erie also known as Canada. The area being blocked I'm assuming was the area at the end of the narrow neck. I got church in ten minutes I'll be back.

Posted
14 minutes ago, sam said:

The buffalo also migrated through that narrow neck of land between Lake Huron and Lake Erie 

The one with the poisonous serpents hedging up the way?

Are you saying the beasts migrated through the narrow neck that was blocked by the serpents?

Posted
1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

The one with the poisonous serpents hedging up the way?

Are you saying the beasts migrated through the narrow neck that was blocked by the serpents?

Verse 31 makes it sound like the serpents were there to block the Jaredites and their flocks not the wild animals. It's states nothing about blocking the migrating land mammals. But when it comes to serpents blocking Jaredites and flocks it's not my area of expertise.

31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla.

Posted
2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

higher in elevation

The lamanites retreat north I think clarifies that Gideon and a numerous host of lamanites were north of zarahemla.

The hermount wilderness from what I can tell is occupied by the lamanites and is also north of zarahemla.

 

36 And they fled before the Nephites towards the wilderness which was west and north, away beyond the borders of the land; and the Nephites did pursue them with their might, and did slay them.

37 Yea, they were met on every hand, and slain and driven, until they were scattered on the west, and on the north, until they had reached the wilderness, which was called Hermounts; and it was that part of the wilderness which was infested by wild and ravenous beasts.

 

 

Posted
Where are the cement cities? There should be a lot of ruins from cement cities, sanctuaries, temples etc.
 
3 And it came to pass in the *forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land anorthward to inherit the land.
  4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to alarge bodies of water and many rivers.
  5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.
  6 And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the adestruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called bdesolate.
  7 And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly aexpert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell.
 8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea awest to the sea east.
  9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in atents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their bsynagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.
Posted
4 hours ago, sam said:

I have the Mississippi as Sidon Gideon was not south of Zarahemla manti was but not Gideon. you would be correct to say that Gideon was on the east side of Sidon which on my map it is. I have the city of Zarahemla on the west side of sidon.

Alma 17:1 And now it came to pass that as Alma was journeying from the land of Gideon southward, away to the land of Manti, behold, to his astonishment, he met with the sons of Mosiah journeying towards the land of Zarahemla.

If Manti is south of Zarahemla and Gideon is east of Sidon, you have a problem, because the land of Manti bordered the headwaters of the Sidon per the text. So it seems Gideon is either south of Zarahemla or north of it. If Gideon is north of Zarahemla then you would need another branch of the Sidon coming from the north since they go DOWN from Gideon into Zarahemla.

Your lands are way too big. They traveled at most a few days here and a few days there to get from city to city. We're talking about lands that are no more than a few counties wide - not 3 or four states wide. From the land of first inheritance to Zarahemla was only at most a 21 day journey. You have more like a 2 month journey to your Zarahemla.

Posted (edited)
 
Yes the Jaredites were in the area between Lake Huron and Lake Erie also known as Canada. The area being blocked I'm assuming was the area at the end of the narrow neck. I got church in ten minutes I'll be back.

The area between Lakes Huron and Erie is not large enough to support the huge Jaredite population nor be a theater for  the vast military campaigns of their final years of battle. Some of the battles seem to extend over periods of years, and don't mention taking time out for the severe winters of that area.

 I am not aware of any evidence that the area north of the Great Lakes was inhabited by millions of people with a highly advanced civilization. It far more accessible than the jungles of southern Mexico and Central America for the discovery of cities and other evidences of civilization, and the climate is more friendly to the preservation of artifacts and remains. Are there sources that give proof of such evidence?

Quote

That's not the narrow neck the narrow neck is between Lake Huron and Lake Erie 

 

Quote

 

s30-33 And it came to pass that the Nephites had inhabited the land Bountifuleven from the east unto the west sea, and thus the Nephites in their wisdom, with their guards and their armies, had hemmed in the Lamanites on the souththat thereby they should have no more possession on the north, that they might not overrun the land northward.

 

alma%2B22%2B34.png
 34 Therefore the Lamanites could have no more possessions only in the land of Nephi, and the wilderness round about. Now this was wisdom in the Nephites—as the Lamanites were an enemy to them, they would not suffer their afflictions on every hand, and also that they might have a country whither they might flee, according to their desires.

 

You have indicated a very large area of Nephite Territory that includes parts of the states of Michigan, New York, and  Missouri, and all the states of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. If they had contained the Lamanites so that they could not intrude on that territory, but only be confined to the Land of Nephi which is on the southern borders of Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio then they would have over 700 miles of border to defend. If they defended only the boarder of the land between Huron and Erie, then they were in danger of losing all the rest of their territory in Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. 700 miles is the distance between San Diego CA and El Paso TX, which we with all our military, rapid transportation, air power, and technology are unable to defend adequately.

Port Huron to Toledo is 120 miles. If a Nephite could travel the distance in a day an a half, that would be 25 hours of travel at 5 miles an hour. Is that reasonable?

From a soldier experienced in foot travel:

Quote

As a Paratrooper...We were required to conduct a 20 Kilometer ruck march (12 Miles) in 3 hours...A 15 minute mile...With a 35 pound ruck and Weapon (say 10 Pounds or so)...This is fairly quick and would be hard to substain...for an entire day's march...Reading eye witness accounts of forced marches during 13th century about 18 miles per day while carrying all of their equipment (a little less than on horse back...Horse travel at about an average pace of a man walking)...But would need to rest the night in order to be fresh for battle...(The Battle of Crecy) ... In this battle they marched 6 leagues (a league being roughly 3 miles) So 18 miles for that day and they were tired. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080909231054AAShP34

The average person can walk from 3-4 miles per hour. A day and a half is 36 hours X 3.5 mph = 126 without rest or sleep.

Edited by Bernard Gui
Posted
3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:
Where are the cement cities? There should be a lot of ruins from cement cities, sanctuaries, temples etc.
 
3 And it came to pass in the *forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land anorthward to inherit the land.
  4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to alarge bodies of water and many rivers.
  5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.
  6 And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the adestruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called bdesolate.
  7 And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly aexpert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell.
 8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea awest to the sea east.
  9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in atents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their bsynagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.

this was discussed before the way I understood it is that wood is the primary building material. When there is a lack of timber  daub and wattle was used. I believe that daub and wattle is what is cement mentioned in the Book of Mormon But even with the use of cement they still had cities of wood and cement in the land northward and they wood ship in timber to the land northward.

Posted
3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Alma 17:1 And now it came to pass that as Alma was journeying from the land of Gideon southward, away to the land of Manti, behold, to his astonishment, he met with the sons of Mosiah journeying towards the land of Zarahemla.

If Manti is south of Zarahemla and Gideon is east of Sidon, you have a problem, because the land of Manti bordered the headwaters of the Sidon per the text. So it seems Gideon is either south of Zarahemla or north of it. If Gideon is north of Zarahemla then you would need another branch of the Sidon coming from the north since they go DOWN from Gideon into Zarahemla.

Your lands are way too big. They traveled at most a few days here and a few days there to get from city to city. We're talking about lands that are no more than a few counties wide - not 3 or four states wide. From the land of first inheritance to Zarahemla was only at most a 21 day journey. You have more like a 2 month journey to your Zarahemla.

I see the word down as meaning elevation like you would come down from a mountain.

If you are referring to Alma 22:27 to describe head waters being close to manti that is not how I interpret it. It talks about the BORDERS of manti not the actual city that if you go through the borders of manti you come to the head waters. It really depends upon how big the borders of manti are. But I have considered that manti needs to be closer but at this point I'm going off of the Journal entries that states that Joseph Smith stated that manti was in Randolph county Missouri.

I would like to see the reference that it takes 21 days from First inheritance to the land of Zarahemla

Posted
1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:
 

Yes the Jaredites were in the area between Lake Huron and Lake Erie also known as Canada. The area being blocked I'm assuming was the area at the end of the narrow neck. I got church in ten minutes I'll be back.

The area between Lakes Huron and Erie is not large enough to support the huge Jaredite population nor be a theater for  the vast military campaigns of their final years of battle. Some of the battles seem to extend over periods of years, and don't mention taking time out for the severe winters of that area.

 I am not aware of any evidence that the area north of the Great Lakes was inhabited by millions of people with a highly advanced civilization. It far more accessible than the jungles of southern Mexico and Central America for the discovery of cities and other evidences of civilization, and the climate is more friendly to the preservation of artifacts and remains. Are there sources that give proof of such evidence?

 

You have indicated a very large area of Nephite Territory that includes parts of the states of Michigan, New York, and  Missouri, and all the states of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. If they had contained the Lamanites so that they could not intrude on that territory, but only be confined to the Land of Nephi which is on the southern borders of Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio then they would have over 700 miles of border to defend. If they defended only the boarder of the land between Huron and Erie, then they were in danger of losing all the rest of their territory in Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. 700 miles is the distance between San Diego CA and El Paso TX, which we with all our military, rapid transportation, air power, and technology are unable to defend adequately.

Port Huron to Toledo is 120 miles. If a Nephite could travel the distance in a day an a half, that would be 25 hours of travel at 5 miles an hour. Is that reasonable?

From a soldier experienced in foot travel:

The average person can walk from 3-4 miles per hour. A day and a half is 36 hours X 3.5 mph = 126 without rest or sleep.

Some of the Jaredite battles took place in New York. The Book of ether states that the hunted in the land southward. I see no issues.

The nephite record talks about regions and quarters of the land in reference to the large spread of the Nephite lands. The Hopewell built fortifications all along the Ohio and Mississippi River.

Another thing you have to remember is that the Nephites had horses that could use as travel for individuals or groups of people.

Posted
8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

It is wrong. The End :)

P.S. River Sidon runs BY the land of Zarahemla. Where is your river Sidon? Gideon and Manti were south of Zarahemla. Gideon was on the east side of Sidon. They crossed over the river Sidon (apparently to west side) to get back to Zarahemla going down to it. They went UP to Gideon. That only works if the Sidon river runs NORTH or at least a branch of it.

I know what you mean when you say that Sidon runs by the land Zarahemla in this case. I believe I have the border to far forward for Alma 2:15. At one point the Mississippi (Sidon) runs in a east to west direction from Muscatine Iowa and Moline Illinois. I believe now that this section of the river was part of the border I will have to move the border south about ten miles or so.

Posted
10 minutes ago, sam said:

I know what you mean when you say that Sidon runs by the land Zarahemla in this case. I believe I have the border to far forward for Alma 2:15. At one point the Mississippi (Sidon) runs in a east to west direction from Muscatine Iowa and Moline Illinois. I believe now that this section of the river was part of the border I will have to move the border south about ten miles or so.

I updated the Alma 2:15 map to run by the border before it enters the land of Zarahemla I think this is a better fit thanks for bringing that up.

 

http://bookofmormonevidence.blogspot.com/2016/09/alma-chapter-2-bom-map.html

Posted
2 hours ago, sam said:

I see the word down as meaning elevation like you would come down from a mountain.

If you are referring to Alma 22:27 to describe head waters being close to manti that is not how I interpret it. It talks about the BORDERS of manti not the actual city that if you go through the borders of manti you come to the head waters. It really depends upon how big the borders of manti are. But I have considered that manti needs to be closer but at this point I'm going off of the Journal entries that states that Joseph Smith stated that manti was in Randolph county Missouri.

I would like to see the reference that it takes 21 days from First inheritance to the land of Zarahemla

Yes, the Nephites used down to refer to elevation, like the Bible does. Thus when they are traveling from the first land of Nephi/Shilom they go DOWN to Zarahemla.

Yes, I referred to "the land of Manti " and not the city itself. Manti is to the south and the headwaters of the Sidon are near its borders. That puts the Sidon flowing north - the opposite direction of the Mississippi. The headwaters of the Mississippi aren't anywhere near your Manti.

21 days are in Mosiah. Alma traveled 8 days to Helam. Then they fled Helam and traveled a day to the Valley of Alma. They were in the wilderness 12 days when they got to Zarahemla for a total of either 20 or 21 days in travel less two days for the Sabbath. The waters of Mormon where they started were in the borders of the land of Shilom. Couldn't have been too far because the people traveled there to listen to him. I have it at about 30 miles.

Good luck. I hate to break your heart, but your model is wrong. Your map depends too much on Wayne May who ignores these details. Cheers.

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sam said:

Some of the Jaredite battles took place in New York. The Book of ether states that the hunted in the land southward. I see no issues.

The nephite record talks about regions and quarters of the land in reference to the large spread of the Nephite lands. The Hopewell built fortifications all along the Ohio and Mississippi River.

Another thing you have to remember is that the Nephites had horses that could use as travel for individuals or groups of people.

Nephites talked neither of travel by horse nor use of them for military purposes such as patrolling and guarding a frontier.

You did not address the difficulty of guarding a 700 mile border with ground troops.

New York is not Canada. You did not offer evidence of a massive advanced civilization like the Jaredites in Canada, and now  you need to show evidence in New York.

I'm seeing lots of issues.

Edited by Bernard Gui
Posted
9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nephites never talked of travel by horse nor for military purposes.

You did not address the difficulty of guarding a 700 mile border with ground troops.

 

The Hopewell Indian were spread all over I think they could cover the area with forts and people

adenahopewellmoundbuilders.jpg

 

Posted
25 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Yes, the Nephites used down to refer to elevation, like the Bible does. Thus when they are traveling from the first land of Nephi/Shilom they go DOWN to Zarahemla.

Yes, I referred to "the land of Manti " and not the city itself. Manti is to the south and the headwaters of the Sidon are near its borders. That puts the Sidon flowing north - the opposite direction of the Mississippi. The headwaters of the Mississippi aren't anywhere near your Manti.

21 days are in Mosiah. Alma traveled 8 days to Helam. Then they fled Helam and traveled a day to the Valley of Alma. They were in the wilderness 12 days when they got to Zarahemla for a total of either 20 or 21 days in travel less two days for the Sabbath. The waters of Mormon where they started were in the borders of the land of Shilom. Couldn't have been too far because the people traveled there to listen to him. I have it at about 30 miles.

Good luck. I hate to break your heart, but your model is wrong. Your map depends too much on Wayne May who ignores these details. Cheers.

for starters helam and the valley of Alma are not in the land of First Inhertance neither is the valley of Alma. Its just a matter of placing those lands within a suitable distance from the lands they traveled from.

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