Question About The Book Of Mormon Geography Debate

[Robert F. Smith]

Polynesians are of Malay and Austronesian descent. The Malay are a scattered race that extends from east Africa and across the isles of the sea to the jungles of Brazil (source). The prevailing theory is that they originated on the east coast of Asia, in Formosa (Taiwan) and started their expansion through the isles of the sea around the time of the Jaredites (3000 BC). But recent genetic testing shows highest concentrations of shared DNA between some aboriginal tribes in Brazil and aboriginal tribes found on the Malay Peninsula and the nearby Andaman Islands.

Likewise, the tall, slim, and dolichocephalic Pericue tribe of Baja, California (now extinct hunter-gatherers), has been related genetically to Australian-Polynesian-Melanesian peoples, and may be related to Kennewick Man and Peñon Woman – their ancestors may have arrived as early as 25,000 years ago (Jennifer Viegas in Discovery News, Sept 6, 2004, at http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20040906/firstamerican.html ).  Indeed, it is believed by some anthropologists that Kennewick Man

 

was descended from the same group of people who would later spread out over the Pacific and give rise to modern-day Polynesians. These people were maritime hunter-gatherers of the north Pacific coast; among them were the ancient Jomon, the original inhabitants of the Japanese Islands. The present-day Ainu people of Japan are thought to be descendants of the Jomon.*

 

*  Douglas Preston, “The Kennewick Man Finally Freed to Share His Secrets,” Smithsonian.com (Smithsonian Magazine), September 2014, online at  http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/kennewick-man-finally-freed-share-his-secrets-180952462/#vxPXdyhlg5CVzTo9.99 ; cf. Douglas W. Owsley and Richard L. Jantz, Kennewick Man: The Scientific Investigation of an Ancient American Skeleton (Texas A&M, 2014).

Edited September 20, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

 

So, has anyone broken the news to the polynesians that it is unlikely they are descendents of Lehi?

The thing is that there is abundant evidence of contact between Polynesians and various tribes of North and South America, including the Maori (and/or Tahitians) contacting the Chumash and Gabrielinos of California, and the close cultural comparisons of the Maori with the Kwakiutl of British Columbia.  Cf. http://etc.ancient.eu/2013/03/26/polynesians-in-california-evidence-for-an-ancient-exchange/ , and http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page3.htm .

 

Then there is Thor Heyerdahl's massive American Indians in the Pacific (London: Allen & Unwin, 1952).

Edited September 20, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Rajah Manchou]

The thing is that there is abundant evidence of contact between Polynesians and various tribes of North and South America, including the Maori (and/or Tahitians) contacting the Chumash and Gabrielinos of California, and the close cultural comparisons of the Maori with the Kwakiutl of British Columbia.  Cf. http://etc.ancient.eu/2013/03/26/polynesians-in-california-evidence-for-an-ancient-exchange/ , and http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/page3.htm .

 

Then there is Thor Heyerdahl's massive American Indians in the Pacific (London: Allen & Unwin, 1952).

All of the existing evidence points to migrations from Asia and Australasia into the New World. Not everything is known of course, but I wouldn't rule out that 25,000 years ago Asians/Australasians reached the New World and then turned back around and headed back towards Asia. Unlikely, but there is always that possibility. Michael Coe suggests that the Mayans and the Cambodian kingdom of Angkor Wat were  "parallel civilizations" and hints the Maya might have gone east by boat.

(45:50 is an interesting comment)

Any way you look at it, Jacob says that the isles of the sea were already inhabited by Israelites in 600 BC. We just don't know how they got there. Jaredite migrations from east Asia? Earlier eastward migrations of Joktan? Jewish refugees/traders fleeing persecution in 700 BC? I've no idea.

[Robert F. Smith]

All of the existing evidence points to migrations from Asia and Australasia into the New World. Not everything is known of course, but I wouldn't rule out that 25,000 years ago Asians/Australasians reached the New World and then turned back around and headed back towards Asia. Unlikely, but there is always that possibility. Michael Coe suggests that the Mayans and the Cambodian kingdom of Angkor Wat were  "parallel civilizations" and hints the Maya might have gone east by boat.

............................................

Any way you look at it, Jacob says that the isles of the sea were already inhabited by Israelites in 600 BC. We just don't know how they got there. Jaredite migrations from east Asia? Earlier eastward migrations of Joktan? Jewish refugees/traders fleeing persecution in 700 BC? I've no idea.

Thank you for that.

 

One expert on Mexican art (under whom I studied) covered all of the close relationships and analogies of Mexico and Mesoamerica with Asia and Southeast Asia.  What Coe is saying is small scale and merely a portion of the overall, well-accepted comparisons.  Coe explains how his interest came to be, and it is understandable that he has become a diffusionist on this scale.  He still travels to the Far East to see such sites.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Rajah Manchou]

Thank you for that.

 

One expert on Mexican art (under whom I studied) covered all of the close relationships and analogies of Mexico and Mesoamerica with Asia and Southeast Asia.  What Coe is saying is small scale and merely a portion of the overall, well-accepted comparisons.  Coe explains how his interest came to be, and it is understandable that he has become a diffusionist on this scale.  He still travels to the Far East to see such sites.

There is an interesting case unfolding in Southeast Asia right now. About 5 years ago a religious monument was unearthed in a place called Lembah Bujang. The bricks at the base of the monument have been OSL dated to 110 AD, but charcoal from iron furnaces in the site have been dated to 600-500 BC. This was a totally unexpected find, as it shows a highly advanced iron-age civilization practicing a religion that predates the presence of Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam. Its a large square built on a circular foundation, with a hole in the middle which probably held a large wooden pole (image). The monument faces Mount Serai/Sarai to the north where a fire altar has been found.

I've no evidence of this, but fire altars in high places above a wooden pole on a circle/square earth monument sounds like Yahweh/Asherah cult to me. At the very least, the presence of a massive iron smelting industry does not suggest aboriginal animism. Even the Malay archaeologists are starting to suggest some sort of Abrahamic or Hanif influence. That's probably just wishful thinking on their part (being conservative Muslims) but it does provide some evidence that groups like the Lehites might be historical, and passed this way in 600 BC. I'm not a scholar so would appreciate any kind of professional academic feedback.

One interesting footnote, this civilization in Lembah Bujang was the precursor to the kingdoms of Funan and Zhenla that eventually became the Khmer civilization in Angkor Wat.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

There is an interesting case unfolding in Southeast Asia right now. About 5 years ago a religious monument was unearthed in a place called Lembah Bujang. The bricks at the base of the monument have been OSL dated to 110 AD, but charcoal from iron furnaces in the site have been dated to 600-500 BC. This was a totally unexpected find, as it shows a highly advanced iron-age civilization practicing a religion that predates the presence of Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam. Its a large square built on a circular foundation, with a hole in the middle which probably held a large wooden pole (image). The monument faces Mount Serai/Sarai to the north where a fire altar has been found.

I've no evidence of this, but fire altars in high places above a wooden pole on a circle/square earth monument sounds like Yahweh/Asherah cult to me. At the very least, the presence of a massive iron smelting industry does not suggest aboriginal animism. Even the Malay archaeologists are starting to suggest some sort of Abrahamic or Hanif influence. That's probably just wishful thinking on their part (being conservative Muslims) but it does provide some evidence that groups like the Lehites might be historical, and passed this way in 600 BC. I'm not a scholar so would appreciate any kind of professional academic feedback.

One interesting footnote, this civilization in Lembah Bujang was the precursor to the kingdoms of Funan and Zhenla that eventually became the Khmer civilization in Angkor Wat.

The pillar, as Coe points out, is probably the notorious lingam.  Prof. Richard Cowen of UC Davis wrote this in 1999 about Indian iron technology for his Geology 115 course, http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~GEL115/115CH5.html :

 

In the 4th century AD, the Gupta king Chandra II erected a gigantic iron pillar to honor Garuda, Vishnu's representative. The pillar still stands in a courtyard outside Delhi. It is 7 m (22 feet) tall, weighs six tons, and is made of iron so pure (99.72%) that it has not rusted in the 1600 years it has been exposed to the weather. This is the largest piece of forged iron that has survived from ancient times, and must have been made by heating and hammering together hundreds of iron ingots.

 

Of course the technology had been available already for centuries in China, where blast furnaces were being used at least from about 1 AD.   Steelmaking was already being done in China by 1000 BC.

 

As to Southeast Asia, bi-metallic iron & bronze spear points were being made in north-central Thailand in the early 2nd millennium B.C., at the same time as iron technology was at a high level in Asia Minor (Hittite).  

[Rajah Manchou]

The pillar, as Coe points out, is probably the notorious lingam.  Prof. Richard Cowen of UC Davis wrote this in 1999 about Indian iron technology for his Geology 115 course, http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~GEL115/115CH5.html :

A lingam or a stupa are possibilities, but this monument doesn't match anything from the Gupta, Pallava or Chola empires and there's no evidence of an Indian or Chinese presence on the Malay Peninsula until the mid 3rd Century AD. 

"This is one of a kind. You can’t find this anywhere in the world, only right here in Sungai Batu,” says Mokhtar, pointing to a structure that looks like a stupa. Except that it is not. Traditional stupas found around the world, especially in India and Nepal, sit upon a square base. There is then a rounded structure built on top of the stupa. The Sungai Batu stupa is a reverse structure with a square structure on a round base. All stupas in the world have their entrances located in the east. The Sungai Batu monument as the structure is now called, has an entrance built on the south side. Interestingly, it looks in the direction of Gunung Jerai. Stupa experts from around the world were invited to study the Sungai Batu monument. Interestingly, all agreed that it neither represented Buddhism nor Hinduism. Instead, it strongly pointed towards animism." (source)

I realize its a stretch to say this could be Arabic, Canaanite or Yahweh, but I'm taking that leap because the legends of the founding of Bujang Valley can be boiled down to the following elements, a warrior/foreigner from Arabia/Persia is led by God (or a personal genie) across the waters. In the Funan and Zhenla versions, the foreigner had a dream that he should board a ship, when he woke up the next morning he discovered a divine bow and God led him across the waters. Compare this to the account of Lehi having a dream he should enter the wilderness, and then upon waking he finds a divine ball which some LDS scholars (Nibley) have compared to Arabic belomancy and divination arrows. 

In the Malay epics the foreign ruler is a warrior named Merong/Maran/Maroni with a connection to King Solomon and a place that sounds like Gumran or Qumran. These founding legends don't rule out a Brahman priest from India, but Brahman priests weren't likely to venture beyond Mother India in those days and the archaeology doesn't support the influence of Brahmins or Buddhists until the 4th or 5th century AD. This site appears 1000 years earlier, in 600 BC, around the time there was a wave of migrants pouring into the Arabian Desert, like Lehi. Some of those sailed as far as Cochin in India, with some possibly going overland to Kaifeng in China via Burma. Many of the hill tribes in this region worship a deity called Ywa and tell of a younger white brother who took their golden book west.

The Malay epics hint at a link between the Arabian Peninsula and the Malay Peninsula at some point after 600 BC, so I'm wondering if Arab/Hebrew migrants also arrived at Pulau Serai near Lembah Bujang. In any case, the possibility is interesting as the Book of Mormon seems to describe everything up to this point accurately.

[Rajah Manchou]

The pillar, as Coe points out, is probably the notorious lingam.  Prof. Richard Cowen of UC Davis wrote this in 1999 about Indian iron technology for his Geology 115 course, http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~GEL115/115CH5.html :

 

In the 4th century AD, the Gupta king Chandra II erected a gigantic iron pillar to honor Garuda, Vishnu's representative. The pillar still stands in a courtyard outside Delhi. It is 7 m (22 feet) tall, weighs six tons, and is made of iron so pure (99.72%) that it has not rusted in the 1600 years it has been exposed to the weather. This is the largest piece of forged iron that has survived from ancient times, and must have been made by heating and hammering together hundreds of iron ingots.

 

Of course the technology had been available already for centuries in China, where blast furnaces were being used at least from about 1 AD.   Steelmaking was already being done in China by 1000 BC.

Was reading up on iron production in China and thought this was interesting. Way back before much was known about the Far East, China was known as Serica, or the "land where silk comes from". Pliny reports that it was inhabited by a people called the Seres that lived to the age of 130, "exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes" and were the first to produce silk from the silkworm. Pliny also mentions that they produced the finest iron.

Given the early accounts, some have suggested that the Seres might be related to the Tocharians, Indo-Europeans that crossed the Takla Makan Desert around the same time that the Jaredites went east. Could "Seres" be related to Deseret? Some dialects from southern China pronounce a final s as a t. For example, Thais will say Joseph Smit, and Jesus Chrite because they can't pronounce an s at the end of a word. So seres would become seret. Not far from Deseret, a people known in the Book of Mormon for their industry in apiculture, so maybe they also perfected sericulture.

Wild speculation again, but thought it was interesting given the conversation about iron in China.

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I didn't know where else to post this but here's an article that compares the Book of Mormon passages to a book Joseph Smith was familiar with. http://wordtreefoundation.github.io/thelatewar/It's insane how many similarities seem to be copied into the Book of Mormon with just some rewording.

[Calm]

No, it is not. You can find those kinds of relationships between any books given a computer, especially given both use biblical style and that many of the parallels are from the copyright statement.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/The_Late_War

Edited September 28, 2015 by Calm

[VideoGameJunkie]

Here are some interesting questions for you to ponder.

Why does The Late War, published in 1816, and The Book of Mormon, published in 1830, share extremely unique phraseology? https://wordtreefoundation.github.io/thelatewar/

Why does View of the Hebrews, published in 1823 by Oliver Cowdery’s religious minister, have almost the same plotline as the Book of Mormon? http://www.mormonhandbook.com/home/view... brews.html

Why is the Vision of the Tree of Life in 1 Nephi almost the same vision that Joseph Smith Sr. had in 1811? https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/064-22-29.pdf

Why does the Book of Mormon quote incorrectly translated passages of the King James Bible? http://infidels.org/library/modern/curt... m_kjv.html

Why are passages in the Bible corrected by the Joseph Smith Translation, but left incorrect in the Book of Mormon, the most correct book on earth? http://www.mormonthink.com/jst.htm

Why does the Book of Mormon talk about windows being dashed to pieces in the Jaredite barges when such windows were not invented until thousands of years later? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window

Why did the Church in 1981 change the Book of Mormon, the most correct book on earth, to say (referring to the appearance of the Lamanites) “…they shall be a white and a delightsome people.” to “…they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.” http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm

If the Book of Mormon were in fact one of the purest books ever written, why were there substantial changes to the subsequent editions? http://20truths.info/mormon/bomchanges.html

Should the Q15 have listened to the presentation BH Roberts gave to them, and then predicted that if church leaders did not address the historical problems of church origins and possible anachronisms in the Book of Mormon, these problems would eventually undermine “the faith of the Youth of the Church? http://mormonmatters.org/2008/11/15/sho... h-roberts/

[Robert F. Smith]

Here are some interesting questions for you to ponder.

....................................................................... 

Why does the Book of Mormon talk about windows being dashed to pieces in the Jaredite barges when such windows were not invented until thousands of years later? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Window

................................................................

The scatter-gun effect of all those questions (many of which reflect complete ignorance of the issues involved) are designed to obfuscate, not inform.  I always recommend that you take issues one at a time, perhaps beginning with the one which you find most significant or challenging.  That is the rational and ethical approach.  For example, I selected one issue raised by your Wikipedia source as an illustration:

 

In Ether 2:23, the Lord advises Jared that one cannot have "windows" in the closed barges because they might be dashed to pieces.  A footnote in the current BofM editions takes one to Genesis 6:16, in which a "window" is placed in Noah's Ark (built long before the Jaredite barges).  So, I take it you agree that both Bible and BofM are deeply flawed on this point?

 

And what does it mean to suggest in Isaiah 54:12 (III Nephi 22:12) that windows can be made from agates?  And what are the "windows of heaven" in Malachi 3:10 (III Nephi 24:10)?  Do you know the meanings of the Hebrew and Greek words used in the biblical locations?

 

You didn't bother to tell us when windows were invented.  You simply threw in the thousands of years claim, without an actual archeological source.

 

Your other questions/issues are amenable to the same skeptical analysis.  Did you do research on those issues before bringing them here?  Did you bother to check sources such as FAIRMORMON.org?

[VideoGameJunkie]

How very cras of you to assume I didn't search for answers. I came here because I have no answers. I've even read the Book of Mormon 4 times through and prayed about if it's true or not like it says in Moroni to do and I've never received an answer saying it's true.

[Calm]

Did you read the link I posted about the Late War?

[Calm]

View of Hebrews, see the section on differences:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/View_of_the_Hebrews

[VideoGameJunkie]

No I didn't, but the main thing I want to know is after years of praying why haven't I received an answer about the Book of Mormon when millions of others have?

[Calm]

Then why are you bothering cutting and pasting without attribution others' questions?

[Robert F. Smith]

No I didn't, but the main thing I want to know is after years of praying why haven't I received an answer about the Book of Mormon when millions of others have?

D&C 9:7, "Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; . . ."

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well I've had no burnings in my bosom even when I've been at my best. I guess I'm not supposed to know for sure yet.

[Calm]

From one of your recent posts: "I've gotten answers to other questions, even in the temple or at home while praying, but not this one."

Most LDS I know who I have talked to are the same as you; they have received answers to some of their prayers, but not all of them. And most are still seeking. Where the difference lies would seem to be the time it is taking doesn't usually upset them. You will need to figure out why this is happening to you. Someone else's answer isn't likely to satisfy you for long. It may take years or decades, but I would suggest remembering and treasuring the answers you have gotten while you are in pursuit of more. If one treats what answers they have been given as little import in their life, why would God give them more gifts as their lack of gratitude would merely condemn them.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Calm

[VideoGameJunkie]

Calm that's great advice, thank you. I'll try to be more patient with the Book of Mormon prayer answer but it's hard I'm a very inpatient person. Always have been. haha

[Calm]

Maybe that is why God hasn't answered you yet, he has figured out if anything is going to teach you patience this will.

 

I am not terribly patient either.  My health is definitely giving me plenty of practice at it over the years, but at the rate I am learning it will be a few more decades at least.  It is one of the reasons I am on the board so much, I hate waiting, it makes me anxious and bored so I fill the time waiting with distraction and then don't bother to move on to other things when I could.  One of these days I am going to figure out a good balance.

 

I kind of wish I was worrying about whether or not the Book of Mormon was true instead because I don't think that would bother me very much, waiting for that answer....which is probably why I've been given what I have that makes me wait because it is so annoying.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Well it's hard for me since I'm going through a faith crisis, the biggest of my life. I figured if I could feel and know that the BOM is true then that'd solve everything.

[Tacenda]

Well it's hard for me since I'm going through a faith crisis, the biggest of my life. I figured if I could feel and know that the BOM is true then that'd solve everything.

Did this all happen since reading the CES letter? Like maybe a few weeks ago? I'm so sorry, I know how it feels. No one can imagine it until one goes through it. I hope you don't stay in the crisis as long as I have. You're not alone, there are many in the younger crowd that see something on Social Media and takes them down the same road. The church has a lot of work to do, they are super worried about the younger members leaving, IMO. Although they should be worrying about the older members too, since we are the grandparents or parents of the young members.

[Calm]

" I figured if I could feel and know that the BOM is true then that'd solve everything."

 

Nothing solves everything.  Thinking there are perfect simple solutions is as much of a myth as thinking one will be happy if one can just get married, get that job, lose weight, get a house, go on a mission, etc.  There is always something else one needs and it will pop up into your attention as soon as what you are focusing on now has bee more or less resolved.

 

What is at the heart of your faith crisis, why are your questions ones of doubt with you fearing you will lose your testimony (or so it seems from this side of the computer screen) instead of questions of curiosity because it is fun to learn more with trust that since the Lord has answered some of your questions, in time he will answer more?  Maybe if you figure that out and you can do something about it, you can start to at least feel in control of your questions instead of them controlling you and it won't be a crisis anymore but an adventure.