"Why some people leave the Church"

[Duncan]

http://www.truthwillprevail.xyz/2019/01/why-some-people-leave-church.html

I don't know if, and this man hasn't supplied any evidence that people do, but what do you think of his reasons why people leave the Church? I personally think people leave for other reasons but may stay away for some of these reasons. What gets me though is this comment from him.

"Now, lest anyone become indignant and accuse me of judging another, I would simply say, yes, I am standing as a watchman on the tower to point out loudly and publicly proclaimed error and murmuring and criticism. I have no power or authority of myself to condemn her or anyone else, in this life or the next, but I do have the capability to show others where the rattlesnakes lie in the tall grass."

To me that's arrogance, I hope this guy doesn't teeter off the edge like others have

[Storm Rider]

Skimming the article, I got the feeling that I agree with him. The moral relativism and moral decline has led and continues to lead individuals away from Christ and into heresy. I don't think they necessarily become moral degenerates, but they tolerate sin as an appropriate choice. In effect, they enjoy living amongst the wolves and often join in as the wolves attack the saints and those other Christians that seek after Christ. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Storm Rider

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

http://www.truthwillprevail.xyz/2019/01/why-some-people-leave-church.html

I don't know if, and this man hasn't supplied any evidence that people do, but what do you think of his reasons why people leave the Church? I personally think people leave for other reasons but may stay away for some of these reasons. What gets me though is this comment from him.

"Now, lest anyone become indignant and accuse me of judging another, I would simply say, yes, I am standing as a watchman on the tower to point out loudly and publicly proclaimed error and murmuring and criticism. I have no power or authority of myself to condemn her or anyone else, in this life or the next, but I do have the capability to show others where the rattlesnakes lie in the tall grass."

To me that's arrogance, I hope this guy doesn't teeter off the edge like others have

I read a bit of it and will try to get back to it and read more.

But it struck me as the old “people leave to sin”, which is so wrong to claim in the great majority of the cases I’m personally acquainted with.

Yes, some things are evolving socially, but that does not mean that most people are not still good, moral people (that I know, in the church and out).  

I still see people leaving mainly over historical issues for example, rather than any leaving to sin.

Edited January 29, 2019 by JulieM

[bluebell]

53 minutes ago, Duncan said:

http://www.truthwillprevail.xyz/2019/01/why-some-people-leave-church.html

I don't know if, and this man hasn't supplied any evidence that people do, but what do you think of his reasons why people leave the Church? I personally think people leave for other reasons but may stay away for some of these reasons. What gets me though is this comment from him.

"Now, lest anyone become indignant and accuse me of judging another, I would simply say, yes, I am standing as a watchman on the tower to point out loudly and publicly proclaimed error and murmuring and criticism. I have no power or authority of myself to condemn her or anyone else, in this life or the next, but I do have the capability to show others where the rattlesnakes lie in the tall grass."

To me that's arrogance, I hope this guy doesn't teeter off the edge like others have

I don’t think we are allowed to appoint ourselves as watchmen on the tower.

[Duncan]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don’t think we are allowed to appoint ourselves as watchmen on the tower.

I would agree with that! hahahhaha! 

[Tacenda]

I didn't like what he said about Mindy Gledhill. Maybe he's wrong about her. Maybe God believes like MIndy and that we shouldn't treat the LGBTQ crowd any differently than anybody else. Who's more Christlike? The bold seems like a very loving statement, IMO. And the second bold shows this guy judging people like her or me for that matter, as being led by Satan, I disagree wholeheartedly.

           A headline in the Tribune recently spoke of someone leaving the Church. The reason this person got such prominent publicity for her apostasy is because she had some standing as a musician, and the Tribune always eagerly gives publicity to apostates. This woman left for these reasons, as quoted in the article: “Her break from her church came from realizing there were things in Latter-day Saint doctrine and history that she felt were too troublesome to ignore. ‘I lost a lot of sleep over it at night, and ultimately could not reconcile those things,’ Gledhill said. ‘I couldn’t reconcile the church’s stance on LGBTQ individuals. … I feel like there is a lot of racial injustice in church history, and in scripture. And I feel like there’s a lot of misogyny in church history. I feel like I was experiencing an awakening to those things.’”

            Two factors are at work here: one is that she probably doesn’t really know church doctrine and history very well, but the larger second reason seamlessly encapsulates the purpose of this blog. We therefore ask again in all solemnity and seriousness—where did she get her “feel[ings]” that she is basing her personal apostasy on? Where did she get her personal position or attitude? Did she get it from God or from men and devils?

[Maidservant]

I know that the times I have come closest to leaving the church was when I experience, or perceive, an issue of integrity with me staying versus me leaving--i.e. leaving seems to hold more integrity, and staying, less.  At this point in my life, my integrity is the most precious gem I have, and I would give up everything for it.  I am always reaching for the next level of being me in integrity and thriving, and even now I'm not sure the Church nor the gospel is it.  But I have stayed mainly because I know too much--I know what Spirit many aspects of participation in the gospel brings and I would be foolish in my own eyes to not drink that water.  I'm not saying I'd never leave, and I'm not saying I will leave.  I'm saying I haven't left yet, I'm here right now, and I'll probably be back tomorrow.  After that . . . let's see what I learn.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

http://www.truthwillprevail.xyz/2019/01/why-some-people-leave-church.html

I thought I was vainglorious and insufferable. I tip my hat to this guy for his arrogance. I like how he praises the writing of one apostle and then comes up with reasons not to obey the counsel of another (while calling it wise).

[teddyaware]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I thought I was vainglorious and insufferable. I tip my hat to this guy for his arrogance. I like how he praises the writing of one apostle and then comes up with reasons not to obey the counsel of another (while calling it wise).

Do you find the even harder hitting comments on the subject made by the ancient and modern prophets, quoted throughout the article, to be equally vainglorious and insufferable? 

Edited January 29, 2019 by teddyaware

[let’s roll]

I consider the question posed in the OP far less compelling than the question, “why do some people give up on God.”

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

I know that the times I have come closest to leaving the church was when I experience, or perceive, an issue of integrity with me staying versus me leaving--i.e. leaving seems to hold more integrity, and staying, less.  At this point in my life, my integrity is the most precious gem I have, and I would give up everything for it.  I am always reaching for the next level of being me in integrity and thriving, and even now I'm not sure the Church nor the gospel is it.  But I have stayed mainly because I know too much--I know what Spirit many aspects of participation in the gospel brings and I would be foolish in my own eyes to not drink that water.  I'm not saying I'd never leave, and I'm not saying I will leave.  I'm saying I haven't left yet, I'm here right now, and I'll probably be back tomorrow.  After that . . . let's see what I learn.

I really appreciate your comment here Maidservant!

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Do you find the even harder hitting comments on the subject made by the ancient and modern prophets, quoted throughout the article, to be equally vainglorious and insufferable? 

Only the parts where the author presumes to tell me what it means. I am familiar enough with some of the sources used to question whether they would be okay with it.

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I consider the question posed in the OP far less compelling than the question, “why do some people give up on God.”

Because it is hard.

[Gray]

I think it's probably a lot simpler. People leave because it's not working for them. People stay because it is working for them.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

http://www.truthwillprevail.xyz/2019/01/why-some-people-leave-church.html

I don't know if, and this man hasn't supplied any evidence that people do, but what do you think of his reasons why people leave the Church? I personally think people leave for other reasons but may stay away for some of these reasons. What gets me though is this comment from him.

"Now, lest anyone become indignant and accuse me of judging another, I would simply say, yes, I am standing as a watchman on the tower to point out loudly and publicly proclaimed error and murmuring and criticism. I have no power or authority of myself to condemn her or anyone else, in this life or the next, but I do have the capability to show others where the rattlesnakes lie in the tall grass."

To me that's arrogance, I hope this guy doesn't teeter off the edge like others have

Yep.  He has his enemies list and he's checking it twice.  And he is wrong about why people leave the LDS faith.  The reasons are seldom doctrinal, and most of those leaving were always marginal members anyhow.  That is what scientific study discloses.  Only a small minority leave after closely examining the LDS faith.

Moreover, all the quotations from the Brethren miss the point that American society is more open and far less violent today than in the past.  One who knows nothing of American history can too easily forget the levels of extreme violence in the slave-holding and then Jim Crow South, the Civil War, the Indian Wars, the wild, wild West, the high levels of crime during Prohibition, etc.  In fact, I understand that Generation Z does not show any of the ignorant behavior of the immediately preceding generation.  These things go in cycles.

[SouthernMo]

This guy is a gong show.

He’s a “technical writer for the Materials Management Department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”  Does anyone know what that means?  Is this guy writing our manuals? Scary thought.

While I can’t speak for this dude, I’ve found that generally, those who appoint themselves as watchmen are far better at evaluating others’ choices and beliefs than their own.

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yep.  He has his enemies list and he's checking it twice.  And he is wrong about why people leave the LDS faith.  The reasons are seldom doctrinal, and most of those leaving were always marginal members anyhow.  That is what scientific study discloses.  Only a small minority leave after closely examining the LDS faith.

Moreover, all the quotations from the Brethren miss the point that American society is more open and far less violent today than in the past.  One who knows nothing of American history can too easily forget the levels of extreme violence in the slave-holding and then Jim Crow South, the Civil War, the Indian Wars, the wild, wild West, the high levels of crime during Prohibition, etc.  In fact, I understand that Generation Z does not show any of the ignorant behavior of the immediately preceding generation.  These things go in cycles.

I respectfully CFR the bold, thanks! P.S. I may have read this totally wrong, hope so.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I think it's probably a lot simpler. People leave because it's not working for them. People stay because it is working for them.

I can agree with this.

Which leads to the follow up questions - what do people expect from a religion and what do they expect from God?

What does "works for them" mean?

Edited January 29, 2019 by JLHPROF

[changed]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

http://www.truthwillprevail.xyz/2019/01/why-some-people-leave-church.html

I don't know if, and this man hasn't supplied any evidence that people do, but what do you think of his reasons why people leave the Church? I personally think people leave for other reasons but may stay away for some of these reasons. What gets me though is this comment from him.

"Now, lest anyone become indignant and accuse me of judging another, I would simply say, yes, I am standing as a watchman on the tower to point out loudly and publicly proclaimed error and murmuring and criticism. I have no power or authority of myself to condemn her or anyone else, in this life or the next, but I do have the capability to show others where the rattlesnakes lie in the tall grass."

To me that's arrogance, I hope this guy doesn't teeter off the edge like others have

 

I like the end - 

"It shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied," he says, "and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches."

For me, the LDS church has become defiled.  When pedophiles are called as leaders, and victims are shoved aside... when adultery abounds within the history of the church, and within the current church...  when the LDS church pridefully claims it is the only "true" church and all others are "fallen"... defiled from the start, prideful...  to deny that God works with all people through the entire world within all the different religious groups - to me this is denying the power of God.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I think it's probably a lot simpler. People leave because it's not working for them. People stay because it is working for them.

I think this is pretty much it. If one wants, s/he can then tackle the question of why something works for some people and doesn't for others. I think the answer to that question is a bit more complex.

I have to admit that I never really knew anyone to leave the Church until this past decade. In my ward, literally every member who has left during this time has done so over a single issue: they wanted the Church to accept same-sex 'marriage'. When they realised it wasn't going to, they left. That's the stated reason in every case. It's been interesting to see some of them 'find' a whole host of other issues post-departure, but it all started with wanting the Church to alter the Law of Chastity to match current social/political fashion.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Because it is hard.

Perhaps.  But hardly as relevant, or important.

I’d be more optimistic about someone who leaves the Church but hasn’t given up on God than someone who stays but has given up on God.

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think this is pretty much it. If one wants, s/he can then tackle the question of why something works for some people and doesn't for others. I think the answer to that question is a bit more complex.

I have to admit that I never really knew anyone to leave the Church until this past decade. In my ward, literally every member who has left during this time has done so over a single issue: they wanted the Church to accept same-sex 'marriage'. When they realised it wasn't going to, they left. That's the stated reason in every case. It's been interesting to see some of them 'find' a whole host of other issues post-departure, but it all started with wanting the Church to alter the Law of Chastity to match current social/political fashion.

I doubt very much it was to alter the Law of Chastity to match current social/political fashion.

I think it's because they believe LGBTQ should be treated like every other human out there, for crying out loud. Sorry, didn't realize how affected I am by this, besides having a niece and nephew by marriage, that are gay. This is how I think those that you know that left because of the SSM issue, is not about that. At least SSM anables celibacy between a married couple, or perhaps helps keep it that way.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

At least SSM anables celibacy between a married couple, or perhaps helps keep it that way.

(1) I don't think you meant 'celibacy between a married couple'.

(2) In case you meant 'monogamy', you may want to check your data.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I respectfully CFR the bold, thanks! P.S. I may have read this totally wrong, hope so.

H. M. Bahr, and S. L. Albrecht, “Strangers once more: Patterns of disaffiliation from Mormonism.” Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 28 (1989):180-200, online at  http://www.jstor.org/stable/1387058?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents .

"Most disaffiliates from Mormonism were always marginal members, and the metaphor of drift applies to their experiences."

J. D. Barbour, Versions of deconversions: Autobiography and the loss of faith (Charlottesville, Virginia: University of Virginia Press, 1994), 2, online at https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=w0whChb6hFQC&oi=fnd&pg=PP15&dq=Barbour,+J.+D.+1994.+Versions+of+deconversions:+Autobiography+and+the+loss+of+faith.+Charlottesville,+Virginia:+University+of+Virginia+Press&ots=BPU275EDkE&sig=uAw7X_qW4ONnP9E2-LxbTFzcDBU#v=onepage&q&f=false . 

"“In this century, secularization is probably the more common way that people lose their faith"

Lewis Rambo, “The Psychology of Religious Conversion,” delivered at the International Coalition for Religious Freedom Conference on "Religious Freedom and the New Millennium" Berlin, Germany, May 29-31, 1998, online at http://www.religiousfreedom.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=356&Itemid=18 .

Quote

" At least the studies that I’ve seen of sociologists in the United States and Europe show that most people remain in the religion into which they were born. The exceptions are people who were born to parents who had a mixed religion. Often, they will change. So, we can begin with the premise that most people stay in the family religion. Those that do change were in situations with a bit of conflict, and were perplexed about the issue."

Jana Reiss posted this -- 

Quote

--Of those who are inactive, many are people the local bishops have never heard of and have no way of contacting.
--The Church’s internal research shows that most young members who leave do so before age 20.
--Mormons are a little older now when they get married; according to Wilkins, “the average age for members of the church who marry outside of the temple is 27 for men and 25 for women. When they marry in the temple, it’s 24 for men and 23 for women. Those are numbers, averages, that have been increasing over the last couple of decades, and so they cause significant concern. The principle concern is that delaying marriage in an era of high immorality—more, increasing access to pornography—constitutes significant, very high risk for our YSAs. What we’ve noticed is that church activity begins to decline in the teenage years and continues to decline into the twenties.”  http://religionnews.com/2016/10/05/leaked-worldwide-only-25-of-young-single-mormons-are-active-in-the-lds-church/ .

 

 

[Thinking]

Quote

I wonder if someday Latter-day Saints will be denied jobs or a seat in a restaurant or be ordered to the back of the bus because of such religious bigotry.

Shouldn't have gone there.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Thinking