"Why some people leave the Church"

[SouthernMo]

On 1/29/2019 at 1:38 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

They would simply drop ALL church because if the ONE TRUE church doesn't cut it, how could they expect any other church to be beneficial. It's a variation of abandoning God, but I see this mindset a lot. It's the church, or it's nothing.

In this LDS teaching, the church sets itself up such that a crack will cause the entire vessel to crumble.

An “All or nothing” truth organization is impossible for me. I’m a proud card-carrying Buffet Mormon - taking what I like, and leaving what I don’t.  If leadership tells me I cannot do that in Mormonism, I’ll leave.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

It is very hard for me to worship a Heavenly Father who by ‘necessity’ employed a ‘winnowing’ process.  Why is my capacity to love my children greater than God’s?

Also, if winnowing is part of the plan - why reach out at all to those who leave the fold?  Is the ministering program antithetical to your understanding of God’s winnowing plan?

God certainly wants us humans to influence each other, to minister to each other.  The winnowing process does not exclude any reaching out, but it is part of a natural process in which free agency is exercised.  There must needs be opposition in all things, not just some things, and all are subject to that fact.  God is not a control freak.  Anyone may come into the fold, or to leave, of their own free will and choice.  God's capacity to love is certainly greater than yours or mine, but he cannot take away our capacity to reject his love -- as did Lucifer and a third of the host of heaven.  Why do you think that God weeps?

[Hamba Tuhan]

49 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

I never stuggled with the gospel. I struggled with the people. 

And there are some real shockers in the Church. The last time I was called to serve in the stake presidency, one of the counsellors repeatedly reminded me that he'd recommended against the call. One morning, we were considering someone for a high priest group leader, and this man said, 'I don't think I have to repeat how I feel about calling men with beards to leadership positions'; then he looked straight at me for several pointed seconds. On another occasion, we were discussing a stake member whom we were worried about. This man labelled the person in question 'rebellious' and then said, 'I just don't understand rebellious members. Hamba, maybe you could explain them to me since you tend that way'. I just looked at him. Thankfully, each time this happened, the stake president would tell me not to be bothered by such nonsense. 'I called you', he would say, 'and you're just what I need. The Lord's opinion is the only one that matters'.

Because we understand that the purpose of this life is for people to learn from their mistakes, repent and change, we have to be patient with crap like this from time to time from people who we know are 'works in progress', but we should never be afraid to identify it as wrong, as my stake president always did.

[Calm]

Perhaps winnowing isn't the best word because it implies discarding (the chaff blows away in the wind) for how we currently understand the plan of salvation.  A sorting takes place, in my view one done by the individual themselves who chooses what their ultimate place in God's Kingdom, their relationship with God, will be.

[SouthernMo]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The big box churches have that sewed up already

And look how many people are happy, fed, and feel belonging. Far more than the LDS church - despite a far more disciplined and organized missionary/recruiting program.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

A sorting takes place, in my view one done by the individual themselves who chooses what their ultimate place in God's Kingdom, their relationship with God, will be.

Which is precisely how a loving God would want it: in the end, everyone gets what s/he truly wants most.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, SouthernMo said:

And look how many people are happy, fed, and feel belonging. Far more than the LDS church - despite a far more disciplined and organized missionary/recruiting program.

You have stats on this?

[SouthernMo]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You have stats on this?

I guess not. Its just my observation that there are a lot of very fulfilled Christians out there. More than 15 million Mormons. 

I’m pretty sure an easy google could get us that information. It’s not a far-fetched claim at all. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I’m pretty sure an easy google could get us that information. It’s not a far-fetched claim at all. 

I think we can agree that there are far more Christians outside the Church than in. I may have misread your post, however. I thought you were claiming that 'big box' Christians are more happy and better fed and feel a greater sense of belonging than their Latter-day Saint counterparts. I would be surprised if we have data that suggest such.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[SouthernMo]

23 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

God certainly wants us humans to influence each other, to minister to each other.  The winnowing process does not exclude any reaching out, but it is part of a natural process in which free agency is exercised.  There must needs be opposition in all things, not just some things, and all are subject to that fact.  God is not a control freak.  Anyone may come into the fold, or to leave, of their own free will and choice.  God's capacity to love is certainly greater than yours or mine, but he cannot take away our capacity to reject his love -- as did Lucifer and a third of the host of heaven.  Why do you think that God weeps?

I’m confused. You claim that god weeps when his children make choices that reject his love. Yet, you’re not bothered by it, and say it’s part of the process.  You don’t weep (figuratively or literally) for those who reject the love of god?

I think god weeps because he loves us. I don’t think he has some master plan to bless the good ones, and let be bad ones go while he shrugs their departure off as a natural part of a winnowing process. I think he respects our agency in the end - certainly. But, I hope it hurts him, and wants to rescue us. 

[SouthernMo]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think we can agree that there are far more Christians outside the Church than in. I may have misread your post, however. I thought you were claiming that 'big box' Christians are more happy and better fed and feel a greater sense of belonging than their Latter-day Saint counterparts. I would be surprised if we have data that suggest such.

Yes - you get it. It’s a numbers comparison, not a quality comparison.

[Walden]

On 1/28/2019 at 6:04 PM, Maidservant said:

I know that the times I have come closest to leaving the church was when I experience, or perceive, an issue of integrity with me staying versus me leaving--i.e. leaving seems to hold more integrity, and staying, less.  At this point in my life, my integrity is the most precious gem I have, and I would give up everything for it.  I am always reaching for the next level of being me in integrity and thriving, and even now I'm not sure the Church nor the gospel is it.  But I have stayed mainly because I know too much--I know what Spirit many aspects of participation in the gospel brings and I would be foolish in my own eyes to not drink that water.  I'm not saying I'd never leave, and I'm not saying I will leave.  I'm saying I haven't left yet, I'm here right now, and I'll probably be back tomorrow.  After that . . . let's see what I learn.

And this is the simple reason why I left the LDS church, it came down to a matter of integrity for me. After spending a lifetime chasing Moroni's Promise and still having many doubts, concerns, etc. and no testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel, I had no choice but to leave. Staying in the LDS church at some point became detrimental to my mental health/well-being and my sense of integrity. I did not want to leave, I had to leave.

I am a better person, a better husband, father, son, sibling, neighbor and friend since leaving. And no, I did not leave in order to sin without regret. To this day, I still follow the word of wisdom with regard to alcohol and tobacco, I am singularly and utterly devoted in thought and action to my amazing wife and I live an honorable existence.

[carbon dioxide]

35 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 and this man said, 'I don't think I have to repeat how I feel about calling men with beards to leadership positions'; then he looked straight at me for several pointed seconds.

If only you have a picture of Christ at the time.  That would have been wonderful

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, cherryTreez said:

 They shoved me straight into nursery.  It's been two years and I have never been to relief society here. No One knows me and it's lonely at church. But then again, I don't go to church for the people.  I can see why people leave over others behavior and why others stick around.

There should be a rule that does not allow new adult members in a ward to be placed in nursery for a year and primary for 6 months.  New members must mix with the other adults to make friends. 

[let’s roll]

16 minutes ago, Walden said:

And this is the simple reason why I left the LDS church, it came down to a matter of integrity for me. After spending a lifetime chasing Moroni's Promise and still having many doubts, concerns, etc. and no testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel, I had no choice but to leave. Staying in the LDS church at some point became detrimental to my mental health/well-being and my sense of integrity. I did not want to leave, I had to leave.

I am a better person, a better husband, father, son, sibling, neighbor and friend since leaving. And no, I did not leave in order to sin without regret. To this day, I still follow the word of wisdom with regard to alcohol and tobacco, I am singularly and utterly devoted in thought and action to my amazing wife and I live an honorable existence.

Sincere question.  As someone who describes themself as having “no testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel,” what motives nearly a thousand posts on a site focused on that gospel?

I understand that there are a number of posters on the site who have doubts and some who don’t believe but are interested or curious about LDS and their beliefs, but you don’t seem to fall into either category.

Godspeed to you.

[Storm Rider]

42 minutes ago, Walden said:

And this is the simple reason why I left the LDS church, it came down to a matter of integrity for me. After spending a lifetime chasing Moroni's Promise and still having many doubts, concerns, etc. and no testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel, I had no choice but to leave. Staying in the LDS church at some point became detrimental to my mental health/well-being and my sense of integrity. I did not want to leave, I had to leave.

I am a better person, a better husband, father, son, sibling, neighbor and friend since leaving. And no, I did not leave in order to sin without regret. To this day, I still follow the word of wisdom with regard to alcohol and tobacco, I am singularly and utterly devoted in thought and action to my amazing wife and I live an honorable existence.

Then what is the problem?  It is because of my integrity that I remain an active member of the Church and I know that I am better being active in the Church. 

Frankly, honestly, I could not care less if someone observes the Word of Wisdom. It is a personal choice and has nothing to do with me. 

[SouthernMo]

1 minute ago, Storm Rider said:

Frankly, honestly, I could not care less if someone observes the Word of Wisdom. It is a personal choice and has nothing to do with me. 

That’s healthy. There are members who disagree with you. @JLHPROF for one believes that those unwilling or unable to believe in certain teachings should not be in this faith.

I applaud your inclusive, yet self-focused perspective.

[Storm Rider]

1 minute ago, SouthernMo said:

That’s healthy. There are members who disagree with you. @JLHPROF for one believes that those unwilling or unable to believe in certain teachings should not be in this faith.

I applaud your inclusive, yet self-focused perspective.

I am not in a Bishopric and thus do not sit in a position to determine or ask about the worthiness of another. As such, the choices of another are none of my business or anyone else's except the individual involved, their relationship with their God, and their desire to attend the temple or hold some callings.  That is not a self-focused perspective, but a perspective in keeping with being a good Latter-day Saint. 

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

That’s healthy. There are members who disagree with you. @JLHPROF for one believes that those unwilling or unable to believe in certain teachings should not be in this faith.

I applaud your inclusive, yet self-focused perspective.

Yes, I do.  And no, I'm not providing a list for what should be common sense.

But continue to appeal to emotion and a level of tolerance that extends beyond reason.

[SouthernMo]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes, I do.  And no, I'm not providing a list for what should be common sense.

I’m more bewildered by the notion that you have a strong belief that there are things someone who is LDS must believe, yet you’re unwilling to be specific about what those things are.

It indicates your position is emotional, rather than rationally thoughtful.  If your idea of common sense is so “common”, why not list those required beliefs?  Shouldn’t it be easy to list and defend?  My guess: your position has holes and you are unable to defend it in specificity, or you haven’t really thought through a complete list.  I don’t know of any published in church writings.  Prove me wrong! 😊

Generalizations are easy, my friend. I’ve read your thoughts here for a while now. I know you can do better to back up the ideas you share.

Edited January 31, 2019 by SouthernMo

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Generalizations are easy, my friend.

Mate, you don't need to worry about the opinions of someone who believes we should all be wearing ankle-length garments and taking second wives. 

One of my Muslim friends often accompanies me to church. He doesn't believe a word of what's spoken (he says), but he enjoys the community and even takes the sacrament now. He's as welcome as anyone else. The sign that appears on virtually all of our chapels isn't a joke.

[Maidservant]

 

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mate, you don't need to worry about the opinions of someone who believes we should all be wearing ankle-length garments and taking second wives. 

One of my Muslim friends often accompanies me to church. He doesn't believe a word of what's spoken (he says), but he enjoys the community and even takes the sacrament now. He's as welcome as anyone else. The sign that appears on virtually all of our chapels isn't a joke.

This is another reason I stay.  If "they'll" take me the way I am, then fine.  I don't mind lending my time, talent, energy, gifts etc to the Church AND outside of the Church.  I go by Elder Uchtdorf's not so long ago plea to stay, so I'm in no rush to leave.  But some days are bigger struggles than others.

[MustardSeed]

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mate, you don't need to worry about the opinions of someone who believes we should all be wearing ankle-length garments and taking second wives. 

One of my Muslim friends often accompanies me to church. He doesn't believe a word of what's spoken (he says), but he enjoys the community and even takes the sacrament now. He's as welcome as anyone else. The sign that appears on virtually all of our chapels isn't a joke.

How does one give a post an extra pat on the back?  🙏 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

I go by Elder Uchtdorf's not so long ago plea to stay, so I'm in no rush to leave.  But some days are bigger struggles than others.

The truth is that we're in desperate need for all kinds of people with all kinds of contributions to make.

I think I've told this experience before, but back in my student days, I went to a pub one night to listen to a mate's band play a set. As often happens in the music scene, there were major delays, and his band took the stage about two hours late. That gave me about two hours to sit in a pub, not drinking and sucking in all the foetid tobacco smoke. My impatience mixed with a growing sense of suffocation (both real and metaphorical), and I started to get really cranky. Everyone else in the pub seemed to be having a good time, but I was not. I looked at them, feeding their addictions and chatting about inane things whilst listening to pretty crap music and caring nothing about time, and I felt resentment.

I found myself saying to God, just casually and not in prayer, 'These people really need Your Church!' The point was that they were screwed up and needed something to clean up and straighten up their lives.

The response was immediate: 'Hamba, do you have any idea how much My Church needs these people?' And for a moment, I saw how much they had to offer that our local members lacked. It completely altered how I see people for the better. I still want everyone to enjoy the full blessings of the Restored Gospel, but I also want the Church of Jesus Christ to have full access to all the talents and abilities and intelligences that God has placed upon this earth.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I’m confused. You claim that god weeps when his children make choices that reject his love. Yet, you’re not bothered by it, and say it’s part of the process.  You don’t weep (figuratively or literally) for those who reject the love of god?

My description of reality does not make me unfeeling, and the same applies to God's full understanding of the winnowing process.  There is a universal law which prevents God from controlling our responses.  He does what he can, and his Holy Spirit is always there for us, to urge us to make righteous decisions.  God and I are both bothered by it, but we cannot lie about it and pretend that it is not a matter of real, free choice.  Naturally, the Presbyterians and other Calvinists cannot accept freedom of choice.  For them, God predestines each of us to be either saved or damned.  No free choice enters in.  That is the most horrific and unfeeling notion I know of.

3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I think god weeps because he loves us. I don’t think he has some master plan to bless the good ones, and let be bad ones go while he shrugs their departure off as a natural part of a winnowing process. I think he respects our agency in the end - certainly. But, I hope it hurts him, and wants to rescue us. 

All of us choose our own destiny or fate.  Of course God does everything he can to rescue us, including sending his messengers to speak to us, but especially sending his Son to die for our sins, thus saving all of us from eternal death.  All of us will be resurrected to an appropriate level of glory.  God's master plan is to save virtually all of us from the First Death.  It is on us to save ourselves from the Second Death.  The LDS faith is inclusive and virtually universal.  Lucifer's plan, which violated eternal law, would have all saved by force, much like the Marxist plan for automatic harmony and a communist utopia -- a contradiction in terms, and impossible.  God guaranteed our success by providing a plan that abides by eternal law.  A painful process, true, but utterly fair and impartial.  The whole experience prepares us for godhood.