New Announcement on Youth and Primary Progression

[flameburns623]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Possibly. The scriptures are clear that the Saints will be few and that many will fall away in the last days. Perhaps we are witnessing that come to pass.

Apocalyptic pessimism--just this sort of comment--was also pretty much in vogue in the 1970's. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Actually there is a specific point in time when we decided as a Church that we could discard what God had restored without a revelation backing the decision.  (And it's probably not when you think).

Not when I think? I don't subscribe your personal fantasy that the Church is slipping into apostasy at all, so debating the 'specific point' when this started isn't something I can contribute to.

Quote

Nobody has a testimony of anything really anymore.  They just do what they are told.

Further evidence that fundamentalism and secular progressivism often produce identical fruits.

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Possibly. The scriptures are clear that the Saints will be few and that many will fall away in the last days. Perhaps we are witnessing that come to pass.

There are all sorts of prophecies of falling away in the last days.  The divisions are where the questions come in.  We could trade prophecies back and forth and disagree.

[Hamba Tuhan]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

A testimony that easily set aside is no testimony at all.

This sounds to me precisely like something his former buddies could have said to the Apostle Paul.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Further evidence that fundamentalism and secular progressivism often produce identical fruits.

The same comparison can be made between the secular progressive and the overly faithful member.  The lack of adherence to an established standard makes both lack in any real principles or belief.

[tulip]

7 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

FYI:  the pre-age change numbers for Young women (based on Elder Nielson’s statement) would have been 16,600. So the increase to 20,000 accounts for not quite half of the increase in the total.  

That means there are about 3,500 more young men serving now than before the age change.

 

1 hour ago, flameburns623 said:

There is a narrative,  I believe,  that actual numbers of active Latter-Day Saints are in massive decline in most countries,  and that our leaders are engaged in shuffling various things to mask this fact and/or to minimize the losses. 

So, dropping the age for various activities or callings is an effort to artificially boost the apparent number of missionaries,  deacons,  whatever. The transition from Home Teaching to "Ministering" masks the failure of the Home Teaching program over the last several decades it was in operation.  The two-hour block is an effort to get more members to commit to regular Sunday attendance,  on the assumption that three hours of church was too long.  

I'm not speaking for Tulip nor any other critic of the Church specifically,  but this is what I perceive is being insinuated. 

That the Church is, essentially,  in slow-motion collapse and our leadership knows this but is either covering the failure up, or at least battening down the hatches in hopes this is a short-lived storm which can be weathered through.  

I am not endorsing nor refuting this. I am articulating an analysis based largely upon comments that I observe on social media from critics of the Church. Similar pessimism is addressed toward Evangelical churches and the RCC by THEIR  critics,  btw.  

I am just old enough to recall that there was similar pessimism about churches in the 1960's and 1970's. I wasn't LDS then, but remember a lot of experimental stuff with youth and young adults in that era among Evangelicals. Bus ministries,  small-group and accountability ministries, more upbeat music, casual church events,  elements of worship styles formerly seen only in Pentecostal churches,  etcetera. 

I don't know if those tinkerings helped much. The baby boomers do however seem to have rediscovered church attendance by the 1980' and early 1990's, before numbers began to fall again. 

Some of this is possibly part of a  natural cycle, including the impulse of leaders to make some changes. 

But I am speculating. 

They are trying to get the youth excited about the priesthood and temple work before they get caught in the LGBTQ propaganda.   The problem is an 11 year old isn't ready for the priesthood.   

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The same comparison can be made between the secular progressive and the overly faithful member.

They don't make statements that are indistinguishable from each other.

By the way, what exactly does 'overly faithful' mean to you? Is it defined in scripture?

[SouthernMo]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

God is bound by law.  It is obedience to law that makes God God.  And that is all through God's word.

He also states that when we follow law he us bound and blessings will be received.

God is not a being that can act on whims and do whatever he pleases.  And that's his word on the matter, not mine. 

So there are eternal laws about when one can be ordained to the priesthood which god must follow?

[SouthernMo]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

But he is bound when we do what he says.

Perhaps, but that’s not the subject of the comment.  It’s about when someone can be ordained to the priesthood. 

[Avatar4321]

6 hours ago, tulip said:

 

They are trying to get the youth excited about the priesthood and temple work before they get caught in the LGBTQ propaganda.   The problem is an 11 year old isn't ready for the priesthood.   

What do you base that conclusion on?

[Avatar4321]

6 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Perhaps, but that’s not the subject of the comment.  It’s about when someone can be ordained to the priesthood. 

If God wanted to He could have someone ordained as a child (John the Baptist) or he could deny them priesthood altogether 

[Rain]

6 hours ago, tulip said:

 

They are trying to get the youth excited about the priesthood and temple work before they get caught in the LGBTQ propaganda.   The problem is an 11 year old isn't ready for the priesthood.   

What evidence do you have of this?

[Amulek]

10 minutes ago, Rain said:

What evidence do you have of this?

None. 

Don't feed the trolls.

[Duncan]

I seem to recall certain people making certain predictions for conference and it's certaintly interesting that any of these changes didn't make their lists, I find that "real" interesting

[JLHPROF]

10 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

My only point is that we need to think less rigidly about the timing and context of priesthood ordinations. God can make and change these rules however he wants. He’s not bound by our manuals or even scriptures.

 

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Perhaps, but that’s not the subject of the comment.  It’s about when someone can be ordained to the priesthood. 

That was the subject of the comment, but it was overstated.  I agree with you.  There are no age restrictions on priesthood.  But that doesn't mean God isn't bound by word.  Fortunately he never put an age restriction on priesthood in the first place.

[ksfisher]

11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

  Nobody has a testimony of anything really anymore.  They just do what they are told.

This statement is pretty insulting as well as judgemental.  

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Perhaps, but that’s not the subject of the comment.  It’s about when someone can be ordained to the priesthood. 

So, when he says “change the way you do this or that” and we willingly and faithfully obey without all the bellyaching, he is bound by his word to bless us, no?

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I seem to recall certain people making certain predictions for conference and it's certaintly interesting that any of these changes didn't make their lists, I find that "real" interesting

 I am surprised about this one not being on anyone’s radar. It really does make more sense with the two hour block

Edited December 15, 2018 by Avatar4321

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There are all sorts of prophecies of falling away in the last days.  The divisions are where the questions come in.  We could trade prophecies back and forth and disagree.

No need to disagree. We’re in for a rough ride.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

Apocalyptic pessimism--just this sort of comment--was also pretty much in vogue in the 1970's. 

And before that even.

The end times will come sooner or later. Only God knows.  I wonder what the conversation among the Lehites was like the week before the Lord’s visit.

Who says it’s pessimistic? The great and dreadful day of the Lord...I’m looking forward to it either as one below or above. Above might be more comfortable. It will be something to behold.

And there’s this song that was cut from Fiddler on the Roof...

Quote

When Messiah comes he will say to us, “I apologize that I took so long.” “But I had a little trouble finding you, over here a few, over there a few….. You were hard to re-unite But, everything is going to be alright.”

Up in heaven there how I wrung my hands when they exiled you from the Promised Land. Into Babylon you went like cast aways, On the first of many, many moving days What a day…. and what a blow! How terrible I felt you’ll never know.

Since that day Many men said to us, “get thee out,” Kings they were, gone they are, We’re still here…….

When Messiah comes he will say to us, “Don’t you think I know what a time you had? Now I’m here, you’ll see how quickly things improve. And you won’t have to move unless you want to move. You shall never more take flight, Yes! Everything is going to be alright!”

When Messiah comes, he will say to us, “I was worried sick if you’d last or not, And I spoke to God and said, 'Would that be fair, If Messiah came and there was no one there?' And the Lord replied to me, 'Wait! Everything will be alright you’ll see!'"

Many times, many men, took our homes, Took our lives, Kings they were, gone they are. We’re still here!

When Messiah comes and his reign begins Truth and justice then shall appear on Earth. But if this reward we would be worthy of We must keep our covenant with God above. So be patient and devout…. and Gather up your things and get thee out! 

https://www.haggadot.com/clip/when-messiah-comes-lyrics

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[SouthernMo]

20 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

So, when he says “change the way you do this or that” and we willingly and faithfully obey without all the bellyaching, he is bound by his word to bless us, no?

Not sure. In your hypothetical scenario, god is asking for obedience and promising nothing in return. So why would he be bound in any way?

Also, you introduce “bellyaching” and the concept of attitude. Obedience + attitude and how they are both important in winning blessings by obedience; you’re opening a whole new topic that needs more specificity. 

[JAHS]

8 hours ago, tulip said:

The problem is an 11 year old isn't ready for the priesthood

People say the same thing about how an 8 year-old isn't old enough to make the decsion about being baptized.  Sometimes giving someone the responsibility of doing something before they are ready is just what they need to help make them ready for it. It's called on the job training. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Not sure. In your hypothetical scenario, god is asking for obedience and promising nothing in return. So why would he be bound in any way?

Nothing hypothetical about the changes that are happening. This is what was promised with the current change...

Quote

We desire to strengthen our beloved children and youth through increased faith in Jesus Christ, deeper understanding of His gospel, and greater unity with His Church and its members.

Quote

Also, you introduce “bellyaching” and the concept of attitude. Obedience + attitude and how they are both important in winning blessings by obedience; you’re opening a whole new topic that needs more specificity. 

Maybe so. But there sure seems to be awholelottabellyachin going on.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[JLHPROF]

55 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

This statement is pretty insulting as well as judgemental.  

Probably.  But is it accurate? 

 If every principle a member claims to have a firm testimony of is subject to change under a future administration and that member would discard their testimony I would say that testimony is meaningless.

Members once had testimonies of the blessings of many doctrinal principles.  Baptism for health.  Testimonies of plural marriage.  Testimonies that the ordinances and garments shouldn't be altered.  Testimonies of mother's blessings.  Testimonies that Adam is God.  And then they were told their testimony was no longer valid, so they dropped it.

Today we have testimonies of baptism by immersion. Testimonies of priesthood blessings.  Testimonies of tithing.  Until we get told otherwise.

[Traela]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

The comments do have me thinking though. How many extended family travel to ordinations AND the 12th, 14th and 16th Birthdays of the girls? I know my parents only do the ordinary action for the boys, but nothing comparable for the girls.

Yes, it would be nice if it were just as common for families to travel at least to see a girl receive her Personal Progress medallion, and even her Faith in God if she finished that (my daughter was the only one in years to finish hers).