New Announcement on Youth and Primary Progression

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

There's probably a policy in place now, but Brigham Young ordained his 11 year old son John Willard as an apostle.

Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were ordained to the priesthood before they were baptized.

The possibilities of timing of ordination to an office seem to be all but endless.

Stages, not ages.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, tulip said:

When I teach the youth Sunday School classes,  the kids are clueless on the scripture stories and gospel principles.   

That's ok, so are most adult members.

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Some large extended families are going to have to choose whose ordinations to attend in January.

It is like going to every temple in the world. Just give up.

[Hamba Tuhan]

31 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Some large extended families are going to have to choose whose ordinations to attend in January.

Maybe this will help quell some of the overwrought cultural hoopla that seems to have grown up around the receiving of ordinances in some corners of the Church? When I have visited parts of America, for example, I've seen printed invitations to both baptisms and ordinations ... and celebrations afterwards that seem to have more to do with competitive ostentation than the actual ordinance itself.

[Hamba Tuhan]

30 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, policy anyway...

I honestly don't know how you do it, mate. When I was a fulltime missionary, we had a brother in one ward that I served in who prefaced half his comments with, 'If I were the president of the Church ...' He didn't last.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I honestly don't know how you do it, mate. When I was a fulltime missionary, we had a brother in one ward that I served in who prefaced half his comments with, 'If I were the president of the Church ...' He didn't last.

No sir.  I am not fulfilling Joseph's warning.  I am in no way calling myself righteous.

It's very simple.  Joseph restored the gospel.  Brigham established a system for executing what Joseph restored.  The systems can change, the restored truth cannot.

All I do is look at what Joseph restored by recorded revelation from heaven and look at what parts of that the Church has changed or eliminated with no recorded revelations.

The differences are obvious.  I  don't care about administrative changes.  But I believe in the restored doctrines and ordinances, the things of eternity brought through the veil.  A blind man can see the difference between what Joseph restored and what we have today.

Edited December 15, 2018 by JLHPROF

[ksfisher]

4 hours ago, tulip said:

Instead of improving youth programs and allocating real money to the youth programs,  they have tried to advance everyone early in hopes that the youth stay in the church.   I am saddened that so many youth are falling away.   We spend so much money on real estate but only give the youth a $2000 yearly budget.   

How would more money help the youth to have more faith in Christ?  Conversion comes through a persons interactions with the Spirit.  Prayer, scripture study, Sunday worship, temple attendance, learning the gospel in the home.  All of these can be accomplished with very little money spent.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's very simple.  Joseph restored the gospel.  Brigham established a system for executing what Joseph restored.

And from that point forward, everything started to go downhill?

Quote

A blind man can see the difference between what Joseph restored and what we have today.

I have a distinct feeling that you're not going to be too pleased with what's yet to come then. Elder Bednar told us nearly four years ago that the Lord is constructing a Church that will be able to fulfil its divine global mandate and that it would be 'unrecognisable' in everything but doctrine* before He's finished.

-----

* I know: you think God is letting His prophets corrupt the doctrine too.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And from that point forward, everything started to go downhill?

I have a distinct feeling that you're not going to be too pleased with what's yet to come then. Elder Bednar told us nearly four years ago that the Lord is constructing a Church that will be able to fulfil its divine global mandate and that it would be 'unrecognisable' in everything but doctrine* before He's finished.

-----

* I know: you think God is letting His prophets corrupt the doctrine too.

Actually there is a specific point in time when we decided as a Church that we could discard what God had restored without a revelation backing the decision.  (And it's probably not when you think).

The Church made it through many administrations without changing restored truth and ordinance.  Decades and decades.  Then one day....

Now the Church could change ANY aspect of the gospel and most members wouldn't care or wouldn't notice.  (Christ as Savior being probably the only sacrosanct belief).  Nobody has a testimony of anything really anymore.  They just do what they are told.

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

There's probably a policy in place now, but Brigham Young ordained his 11 year old son John Willard as an apostle.

Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were ordained to the priesthood before they were baptized.

The possibilities of timing of ordination to an office seem to be all but endless.

A couple of unusual events become all but endless. OK.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Maybe this will help quell some of the overwrought cultural hoopla that seems to have grown up around the receiving of ordinances in some corners of the Church? When I have visited parts of America, for example, I've seen printed invitations to both baptisms and ordinations ... and celebrations afterwards that seem to have more to do with competitive ostentation than the actual ordinance itself.

Well, I like to be present when my grandchildren are baptized and ordained, well, just because I love them and enjoy being there on those occassions. Other than a family dinner afterwards, not much hoopla surrounds the event. That's going to have to change. We have five deacons being ordained in 2019.

[SouthernMo]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

A couple of unusual events become all but endless. OK.

My only point is that we need to think less rigidly about the timing and context of priesthood ordinations. God can make and change these rules however he wants. He’s not bound by our manuals or even scriptures.

[JLHPROF]

26 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

My only point is that we need to think less rigidly about the timing and context of priesthood ordinations. God can make and change these rules however he wants. He’s not bound by our manuals or even scriptures.

 That's a slight overstatement.

[SouthernMo]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 That's a slight overstatement.

How is god bound?

[JLHPROF]

30 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

How is god bound?

God is bound by law.  It is obedience to law that makes God God.  And that is all through God's word.

He also states that when we follow law he us bound and blessings will be received.

God is not a being that can act on whims and do whatever he pleases.  And that's his word on the matter, not mine. 

[Rain]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My husband taught 11/12 yr. olds for a few years and it was no fun for those that were left going to sharing time by themselves when all the class turned 12 and began YW's and YM's.

With the current way, it isn't always fun for the older children to attend both YW and primary either. My daughter turned 12 about 6 monthis ahead of the next girl. It was odd for her to be alone in both YW and primary at the same time. 

8 hours ago, bluebell said:

Do we know that they are advancing people early to try to get them to stay in the church?  That just doesn't make sense to me.  Why would the church think that being in the youth program a few months longer than the kids in the past were in it make the difference between staying and falling away?

I think part of this change has to do with the Valiant 11s, who have always split their time between primary and YM/YW once they turned 12.  That just wasn't going to work very well with the new 2 hour block.

 

I think you might be right. My daughter already struggled with going to YW and primary at the same time. Going to YW every other week and primary on the opposite weeks ,she would have felt like they were holding her back even more.

5 hours ago, Thinking said:

Some large extended families are going to have to choose whose ordinations to attend in January.

That already happens for many families when you have all the baptisms, for donations, mission calls, weddings, graduations etc to some extent. My parents have found that often bishops will often work with you in these cases.

The comments do have me thinking though. How many extended family travel to ordinations AND the 12th, 14th and 16th Birthdays of the girls? I know my parents only do the ordinary action for the boys, but nothing comparable for the girls.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Rain

[flameburns623]

6 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Yet you still can’t say what is desperate

There is a narrative,  I believe,  that actual numbers of active Latter-Day Saints are in massive decline in most countries,  and that our leaders are engaged in shuffling various things to mask this fact and/or to minimize the losses. 

So, dropping the age for various activities or callings is an effort to artificially boost the apparent number of missionaries,  deacons,  whatever. The transition from Home Teaching to "Ministering" masks the failure of the Home Teaching program over the last several decades it was in operation.  The two-hour block is an effort to get more members to commit to regular Sunday attendance,  on the assumption that three hours of church was too long.  

I'm not speaking for Tulip nor any other critic of the Church specifically,  but this is what I perceive is being insinuated. 

That the Church is, essentially,  in slow-motion collapse and our leadership knows this but is either covering the failure up, or at least battening down the hatches in hopes this is a short-lived storm which can be weathered through.  

I am not endorsing nor refuting this. I am articulating an analysis based largely upon comments that I observe on social media from critics of the Church. Similar pessimism is addressed toward Evangelical churches and the RCC by THEIR  critics,  btw.  

I am just old enough to recall that there was similar pessimism about churches in the 1960's and 1970's. I wasn't LDS then, but remember a lot of experimental stuff with youth and young adults in that era among Evangelicals. Bus ministries,  small-group and accountability ministries, more upbeat music, casual church events,  elements of worship styles formerly seen only in Pentecostal churches,  etcetera. 

I don't know if those tinkerings helped much. The baby boomers do however seem to have rediscovered church attendance by the 1980' and early 1990's, before numbers began to fall again. 

Some of this is possibly part of a  natural cycle, including the impulse of leaders to make some changes. 

But I am speculating. 

[Avatar4321]

6 hours ago, tulip said:

There are at least 7000 senior missionaries included in the number of 67000 so that would mean 40,000 elders.   So yes it has grown since 2011 slightly but much less than the early 2000's.    my mistake.     I still think the amount of women serving is higher than the 20,000 quoted.

And you think this based on what? Why should we disbelieve the numbers we have been given?

[Avatar4321]

3 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

It almost seems that President Nelson is like the new President McKay of his time -- in that he is implementing a lot of change thus far.  

Almost as if they were called to be prophets of their day or something...

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Actually there is a specific point in time when we decided as a Church that we could discard what God had restored without a revelation backing the decision.  (And it's probably not when you think).

The Church made it through many administrations without changing restored truth and ordinance.  Decades and decades.  Then one day....

Now the Church could change ANY aspect of the gospel and most members wouldn't care or wouldn't notice.  (Christ as Savior being probably the only sacrosanct belief).  Nobody has a testimony of anything really anymore.  They just do what they are told.

I disagree. There are lots of members with testimonies.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I disagree. There are lots of members with testimonies.

Testimonies of three things:

1. Jesus

2. The Church is true

3. The prophet

Anything else, no matter how deeply they've born witness, they'll drop like a hot potato if the prophet says.  A testimony that easily set aside is no testimony at all.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

My only point is that we need to think less rigidly about the timing and context of priesthood ordinations. God can make and change these rules however he wants. He’s not bound by our manuals or even scriptures.

But he is bound when we do what he says.

[Avatar4321]

25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

God is bound by law.  It is obedience to law that makes God God.  And that is all through God's word.

He also states that when we follow law he us bound and blessings will be received.

God is not a being that can act on whims and do whatever he pleases.  And that's his word on the matter, not mine. 

"Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; " (D&C 56:4)

Sure looks like God can do as He pleases.

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

There is a narrative,  I believe,  that actual numbers of active Latter-Day Saints are in massive decline in most countries,  and that our leaders are engaged in shuffling various things to mask this fact and/or to minimize the losses. 

So, dropping the age for various activities or callings is an effort to artificially boost the apparent number of missionaries,  deacons,  whatever. The transition from Home Teaching to "Ministering" masks the failure of the Home Teaching program over the last several decades it was in operation.  The two-hour block is an effort to get more members to commit to regular Sunday attendance,  on the assumption that three hours of church was too long.  

I'm not speaking for Tulip nor any other critic of the Church specifically,  but this is what I perceive is being insinuated. 

That the Church is, essentially,  in slow-motion collapse and our leadership knows this but is either covering the failure up, or at least battening down the hatches in hopes this is a short-lived storm which can be weathered through.  

I am not endorsing nor refuting this. I am articulating an analysis based largely upon comments that I observe on social media from critics of the Church. Similar pessimism is addressed toward Evangelical churches and the RCC by THEIR  critics,  btw.  

I am just old enough to recall that there was similar pessimism about churches in the 1960's and 1970's. I wasn't LDS then, but remember a lot of experimental stuff with youth and young adults in that era among Evangelicals. Bus ministries,  small-group and accountability ministries, more upbeat music, casual church events,  elements of worship styles formerly seen only in Pentecostal churches,  etcetera. 

I don't know if those tinkerings helped much. The baby boomers do however seem to have rediscovered church attendance by the 1980' and early 1990's, before numbers began to fall again. 

Some of this is possibly part of a  natural cycle, including the impulse of leaders to make some changes. 

But I am speculating. 

Possibly. The scriptures are clear that the Saints will be few and that many will fall away in the last days. Perhaps we are witnessing that come to pass.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

"Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; " (D&C 56:4)

Sure looks like God can do as He pleases.

 Not without consequences.

D&C 58:32 I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing

D&C 130:20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
            21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Alma 42:13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

God is bound by law, just like the rest of us.  And if a law is revoked the blessings are lost.