Ex communication and temple endowments

[poptart]

Was curious, when someone is excommunicated from the  LDS Church, what's stopping them from telling someone or say, writing a book that has the details of the endowment ceremony that happens in Temples?  Considering that they've just been burned badly that would be a great opportunity to get a little revenge and possibly make some money, would imagine Evangelicals would be frothing at the mouth for something like that. 

[Calm]

It has happened.  A lot of the early and current "exposes" were done by exmembers.

[bluebell]

Nothing prevents them from doing any of that.  And like Cal said, quite a few have.

[Tacenda]

You have never heard of NewNameNoah? He took it to a new level and lowest of low and filmed it, now people in my family that have never been in the temple might get the wrong impression of me and think it's cultish.

[Hamba Tuhan]

If you think about it, there's nothing more stopping them from doing it before excommunication than there is afterwards: it's an issue of integrity in both cases.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Was curious, when someone is excommunicated from the  LDS Church, what's stopping them from telling someone or say, writing a book that has the details of the endowment ceremony that happens in Temples?  Considering that they've just been burned badly that would be a great opportunity to get a little revenge and possibly make some money, would imagine Evangelicals would be frothing at the mouth for something like that. 

This is actually happened a number of times.  Deborah Laake.  Mike Norton.  Several others.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, poptart said:

Was curious, when someone is excommunicated from the  LDS Church, what's stopping them from telling someone or say, writing a book that has the details of the endowment ceremony that happens in Temples?  Considering that they've just been burned badly that would be a great opportunity to get a little revenge and possibly make some money, would imagine Evangelicals would be frothing at the mouth for something like that. 

There are live recordings online of the LDS temple endowments.  The "God Makers" film included that.  Books containing that same info were available back in Brother Brigham's time.  Learned non-Mormon anthropologists have even analyzed the endowments in considerable detail.  The endowments are sacred, but they are not really secret.

[The Nehor]

Fortunately the secrets and the meaning of much of the temple ceremonies are so clothed in the need for revelation that apostates cannot expose them no matter how hard they try. Even those who have been members for long periods never seem to know these secrets when they defect. They just put up films or transcripts and go for shock. I suspect that like a lot of spiritual knowledge if you defy it it is taken away. Poor fools.

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Fortunately the secrets and the meaning of much of the temple ceremonies are so clothed in the need for revelation that apostates cannot expose them no matter how hard they try. Even those who have been members for long periods never seem to know these secrets when they defect. They just put up films or transcripts and go for shock. I suspect that like a lot of spiritual knowledge if you defy it it is taken away. Poor fools.

Agreed

I am just flabbergasted by the fact that they seem to know absolutely nothing about it.

The Lord is amazing.

[halconero]

13 hours ago, poptart said:

Was curious, when someone is excommunicated from the  LDS Church, what's stopping them from telling someone or say, writing a book that has the details of the endowment ceremony that happens in Temples?  Considering that they've just been burned badly that would be a great opportunity to get a little revenge and possibly make some money, would imagine Evangelicals would be frothing at the mouth for something like that. 

The Danites.

[cdowis]

The temple endowment in the Bible ==>>

Acts 1 [3] To whom also [Christ] shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by cdowis

[poptart]

On 11/14/2018 at 5:36 PM, Calm said:

It has happened.  A lot of the early and current "exposes" were done by exmembers.

That's human nature, once someone has a grievence they want revenge.

On 11/14/2018 at 5:49 PM, Tacenda said:

You have never heard of NewNameNoah? He took it to a new level and lowest of low and filmed it, now people in my family that have never been in the temple might get the wrong impression of me and think it's cultish.

So that's the guy who made those.....

On 11/14/2018 at 11:43 PM, The Nehor said:

Fortunately the secrets and the meaning of much of the temple ceremonies are so clothed in the need for revelation that apostates cannot expose them no matter how hard they try. Even those who have been members for long periods never seem to know these secrets when they defect. They just put up films or transcripts and go for shock. I suspect that like a lot of spiritual knowledge if you defy it it is taken away. Poor fools.

 

On 11/14/2018 at 11:48 PM, mfbukowski said:

Agreed

I am just flabbergasted by the fact that they seem to know absolutely nothing about it.

The Lord is amazing.

Human nature, gotta love it.  Not one for religious revelation, well not like you guys (I think?)  I'm more of a go in the woods and commune with mother earth, father sky, sister river and brother tree.

On 11/15/2018 at 6:40 AM, halconero said:

The Danites.

So basically good ole boy justice?  Hey, it works and it's better than the Klan.

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

The temple endowment in the Bible ==>>

Acts 1 [3] To whom also [Christ] shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

 

Uh, what?

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

Uh, what?

Yep, amazing what was discussed during the 40 days of unrecorded conversation, the so called gnosis which certainly included baptism for the dead, and other temple work..

Christ fulfilled His promise:
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by cdowis

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, cdowis said:

The temple endowment in the Bible ==>>

Acts 1 [3] To whom also [Christ] shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

 

The entire endowment is in the Bible if you know where to look.

[poptart]

14 hours ago, cdowis said:

Yep, amazing what was discussed during the 40 days of unrecorded conversation, the so called gnosis which certainly included baptism for the dead, and other temple work..

Christ fulfilled His promise:
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

Still don't follow.

[MiserereNobis]

15 hours ago, cdowis said:

Yep, amazing what was discussed during the 40 days of unrecorded conversation, the so called gnosis which certainly included baptism for the dead, and other temple work..

Pure conjecture based on your beliefs. You cannot point to that as an example of temple rituals being in the Bible.

[MiserereNobis]

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The entire endowment is in the Bible if you know where to look.

Can you point out the verses or would that be breaking your promise not to share the temple ritual?

I have to admit, there have been times when I have been sorely tempted to read about the rituals online so I can understand what you guys are talking about on here, but I refrain.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Can you point out the verses or would that be breaking your promise not to share the temple ritual?

I have to admit, there have been times when I have been sorely tempted to read about the rituals online so I can understand what you guys are talking about on here, but I refrain.

There are so many verses that are specifically related to the temple and the ordinances.

The believer says the verses reference the endowment.  The nonbeliever says Joseph incorporated these elements into the endowment.  Perspective matters.

The creation account in Genesis is a record of Moses endowment.  That's clear.  Many other references exist.  The Mount of Transfiguration was a temple experience.  Mary anointing Christ.  Christ washing the Apostles feet.  The wedding garment parable/garment in Revelation.  Jacob "wrestling" God.  The armor of God.  Three types of bodies in the resurrection according to Paul.  Baptism for the dead.  Sealing on earth and in heaven.  Peter holding keys.  The list goes on, and on.

But we all see what our perspective allows.

Edited November 17, 2018 by JLHPROF

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Pure conjecture based on your beliefs. You cannot point to that as an example of temple rituals being in the Bible.

We accept all the Word of God, including the Bible and modern revelation.

Regarding  the gnosis ==>>

What EXACTLY did He teach them during those 40 days? Did he simply repeat the Sermon on the Mount 5,000 times? Forty days is a very long time to be teaching.

Well, we get clues from the apostles.  Peter tells us,

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Billions of God's children have never even heard of Christ -- Peter tells us that they will also have that opportunity for salvation.

And Paul,
1 Cor[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
[41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual bod

He tells us that the Christians did baptisms for the dead, Christ having taught that baptism is necessary for salvation. 

Then there is  Christ's  promise to Peter, 
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
That promise was then fulfilled  and the ordinances could then be performed.

There are those who call these “secrets”, or gnosis, and,  as Christ said, “it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” They are indeed sacred, and Christ has commanded us to keep them from the world but the hints are in the teachings of the apostles after the priesthood authority, the key to unlock (perform) those ordinances.

Edited November 17, 2018 by cdowis

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Pure conjecture based on your beliefs. You cannot point to that as an example of temple rituals being in the Bible.

One drop of water may or may not be evidence of rain.  The more drops, the more likely it's raining.

There are pieces of the temple ordinances scattered all through the Bible.  Virtually the entire endowment ceremony is represented in the Bible somewhere.  Genesis is merely the most complete.  

Edited November 17, 2018 by JLHPROF

[Spammer]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

One drop of water may or may not be evidence of rain.  The more drops, the more likely it's raining.

There are pieces of the temple ordinances scattered all through the Bible.  Virtually the entire endowment ceremony is represented in the Bible somewhere.

Perspective. I was raised LDS, seminary grad, with mission, temple marriage and proxy work afterward. As someone with faithful, adult experience in both traditions, I don’t see the endowment in the Bible. I perceive a direct linkage between the ancient temple liturgy and Catholic liturgies. Hence, my conversion.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Spammer

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Spammer said:

Perspective. I was raised LDS, seminary grad, with mission, temple marriage and proxy work afterward. As someone with faithful, adult experience in both traditions, I don’t see the endowment in the Bible. I perceive a direct linkage between the ancient temple liturgy and Catholic liturgies. Hence, my conversion.

 Yep.  I  think there probably is a direct link.  Elements of the endowment are scattered through many cultures and religions over centuries and millennia.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I have to admit, there have been times when I have been sorely tempted to read about the rituals online so I can understand what you guys are talking about on here, but I refrain.

You are a good man.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

One drop of water may or may not be evidence of rain.  The more drops, the more likely it's raining.

There are pieces of the temple ordinances scattered all through the Bible.  Virtually the entire endowment ceremony is represented in the Bible somewhere.  Genesis is merely the most complete.  

I would love some references of the endowment ceremony in the Bible. Also, why not in the touted most correct book, BoM.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I would love some references of the endowment ceremony in the Bible. Also, why not in the touted most correct book, BoM.

You might consider these....

Quote

Alma 12:9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

12 And Amulek hath spoken plainly concerning death, and being raised from this mortality to a state of immortality, and being brought before the bar of God, to be judged according to our works.

13 Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned.

14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

15 But this cannot be; we must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance.

16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness.

17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.

18 Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God’s justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption.

19 Now it came to pass that when Alma had made an end of speaking these words, the people began to be more astonished;

20 But there was one Antionah, who was a chief ruler among them, came forth and said unto him: What is this that thou hast said, that man should rise from the dead and be changed from this mortal to an immortal state, that the soul can never die?

21 What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.

22 Now Alma said unto him: This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.

24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

25 Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.

26 And now behold, if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life they would have been forever miserable, having no preparatory state; and thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated, and the word of God would have been void, taking none effect.

27 But behold, it was not so; but it was appointed unto men that they must die; and after death, they must come to judgment, even that same judgment of which we have spoken, which is the end.

28 And after God had appointed that these things should come unto man, behold, then he saw that it was expedient that man should know concerning the things whereof he had appointed unto them;

29 Therefore he sent angels to converse with them, who caused men to behold of his glory.

30 And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world; and this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.

31 Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal, and becoming as gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good—

32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; for on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God.

33 But God did call on men, in the name of his Son, (this being the plan of redemption which was laid) saying: If ye will repent, and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine Only Begotten Son;

34 Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.

35 And whosoever will harden his heart and will do iniquity, behold, I swear in my wrath that he shall not enter into my rest.

36 And now, my brethren, behold I say unto you, that if ye will harden your hearts ye shall not enter into the rest of the Lord; therefore your iniquity provoketh him that he sendeth down his wrath upon you as in the first provocation, yea, according to his word in the last provocation as well as the first, to the everlasting destruction of your souls; therefore, according to his word, unto the last death, as well as the first.

37 And now, my brethren, seeing we know these things, and they are true, let us repent, and harden not our hearts, that we provokenot the Lord our God to pull down his wrath upon us in these his second commandments which he has given unto us; but let us enter into the rest of God, which is prepared according to his word.

•  

Quote

Mormon 9:  11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.

12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man.

And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son;

and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.

13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ,

they are brought back into the presence of the Lord;

yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.

14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.

Quote

Alma 42: 

2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—

3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit—

4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.

5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated.

6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man.

7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will.

8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness.

9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death.

10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord.

12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

14 And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence.

15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.

16 Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternalalso as the life of the soul.

17 Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment?

18 Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man.

19 Now, if there was no law given—if a man murdered he should die—would he be afraid he would die if he should murder?

20 And also, if there was no law given against sin men would not be afraid to sin.

21 And if there was no law given, if men sinned what could justice do, or mercy either, for they would have no claim upon the creature?

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judgedaccording to their works, according to the law and justice.

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercyclaimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.

27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.

28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.