Ex communication and temple endowments

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I would love some references of the endowment ceremony in the Bible. Also, why not in the touted most correct book, BoM.

Let me ask you this.  You have been endowed.  What elements do you not see in the Bible and I may provide a reference if it's appropriate?

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Let me ask you this.  You have been endowed.  What elements do you not see in the Bible and I may provide a reference if it's appropriate?

I don't know my Bible like you know your Bible, that's why I asked.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

You might consider these....

 

Thanks, I will look through the scriptures you quoted out of the BoM.

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know my Bible like you know your Bible, that's why I asked.

Knowledge is not really the issue.  If the endowment is scriptural then I don't understand objections to any part of it.

Even if it's not scriptural and was a new revelation we can still  gain a testimony of the ordinances.

I don't see how the ordinances of the temple should be a sticking point for any believer.  

Edited November 18, 2018 by JLHPROF

[mfbukowski]

The Isaiah nail stuff, Exodus 40 annointings,  Hebrews 9 and 10 veil stuff, someone might look those up, I don't have time at the moment.

Baptism for dead, celestial terrestrial bodies, tell the vision to no man at transfiguration, just a few off the top of my head.

[nuclearfuels]

On 11/15/2018 at 12:38 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

There are live recordings online of the LDS temple endowments.  The "God Makers" film included that.  Books containing that same info were available back in Brother Brigham's time.  Learned non-Mormon anthropologists have even analyzed the endowments in considerable detail.  The endowments are sacred, but they are not really secret.

Hi Robert,

I'd be interested in reading those anthropologists' writings. Can you post or send me any links?

[Robert F. Smith]

13 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

.............

I'd be interested in reading those anthropologists' writings. Can you post or send me any links?

See for example,

Dolgin, Janet, “Latter-day Sense and Substance,” in I. Zaretsky & M. Leone, eds., Religious Movements in Contemporary America (Princeton, 1974), 519-546.

Smith, Christopher, “Nation's Anthropologists Evaluate LDS Culture,” Salt Lake Tribune, Dec 1, 2001 , online at https://culteducation.com/group/1057-the-mormon-church/14183-nations-anthropologists-evaluate-lds-culture.html ,

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/17/2018 at 1:08 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Pure conjecture based on your beliefs. You cannot point to that as an example of temple rituals being in the Bible.

All LDS esoteric, sacramental rites are to be found in the Bible.

On 11/17/2018 at 1:09 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Can you point out the verses or would that be breaking your promise not to share the temple ritual?

I have to admit, there have been times when I have been sorely tempted to read about the rituals online so I can understand what you guys are talking about on here, but I refrain.

Non-Mormon scholars have often pointed out just such esoteric ritual sequences in the Bible, without any reference to LDS practice (they are no doubt unaware of the similarities).  Many sections of biblical books (sometimes whole books) or biblical poems are geared to oral performance in the temple, or in public:

I often call attention to Anglican Bishop N. T. Wright's assertion that the Genesis Creation and Garden Story is explicitly "a temple story" -- “N.T. Wright and Pete Enns: What Do You Mean by Literal?” BioLogos Foundation Video, “a temple story” = “the literal meaning of Genesis,” online at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxQpFosrTUk  .  It is reenacted many times virtually daily in Mormon temples.  It is already pure liturgy, as written in Genesis (see the poetic analysis of John Kselman of Catholic Univ of America in Journal of Biblical Literature, 97:164 n.15).  Indeed, the closest parallel in Assyro-Babylonian literature, Enuma elish, was performed in temples every New Year's Day.

R. Hendel, “Tangled Plots in Genesis,” in A. Beck, et al., eds., Fortunate the Eyes That See: Essays in Honor of David Noel Freedman (Eerdmans, 1995), 40, citing for further detail H. C. White, Narration and Discourse in the Book of Genesis (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1991), 130-135; cf. R. Hendel, “Getting Back to the Garden of Eden,” Bible Review, 14/6 (Dec 1998); Francis Landy, “The Song of Songs in the Garden of Eden,” Journal of Biblical Literature, 98 (Dec 1979):513-528, re Songs 6:2-11; Hayim ben Yosef Tawil discusses the “setting” of the Song of Songs as “the royal couple in their natural environment in the garden. Consequently, in light of both Akk. epigraphical and iconographical sources, perhaps [ʻereś] in SoS 1:16 might be the etymological and the semantic equivalent of Akk. qirsu” or qersu, meaning “a sacred area; arbor, bower.”  Tawil, Akkadian Lexical Companion for Biblical Hebrew (KTAV, 2009), 285-286.

Ruth 3:1-5, 2 Sam 12:20, 24:11-25, Lev 8:6-13,  and Ex 29:4-8 also have more or less the same ritual endowment sequence; for Ruth, see the ritual analysis of Edward F. Campbell, Ruth, Anchor Bible 7 (Doubleday, 1975), 118-119;  R. J. Clifford, Catholic Biblical Quarterly, 39:574.

Joel, Nahum, and Habakkuk are considered by scholars to be liturgical poetry.  Cf. the chiastic Babylonian (Seleucid) temple rites in J. Pritchard, Ancient Near Eastern Texts, 3rd ed., 331-342, discussed by Shea, Origins, 5:9-38 (arranged as prose - poetic ritual - prose).

The entire Gospel of Mark is considered by many scholars to be designed for oral performance (drama); Antoinette Clark Wire, The Case for Mark Composed in Performance (Eugene: Cascade, 2011); Whitney Shiner, Proclaiming the Gospel: First-Century Performance of Mark (Trinity Press Int’l, 2003); “Creating the Kingdom: The Performance of Mark as Revelatory Event” in Literary Encounters with the Reign of God, Festschrift for Robert C. Tannehill (ed. S. H. Ringe and H. C. P. Kim; Harrisburg, Pa.: T & T Clark International, 2004); “Applause and Applause Lines in the Gospel of Mark,” in Rhetorics and Hermeneutics: Essays in Honor of Wilhelm Wuellner (ed. J. D. Hester; Harrisburg, Pa.: T & T Clark International, 2004).

See also Book of Mormon Central, “How Do the Book of Moses and Book of Mormon Help Us Understand the Endowment? (1 Nephi 11:1),” KnoWhy # 396, January 4, 2018, online at https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/how-do-the-book-of-moses-and-book-of-mormon-help-us-understand-the-endowment ; chart on Moses 5 - 7, and 1 Ne 11 - 13. 

 

 

[phaedrus ut]

First published in 1879 in the Salt Lake Tribune. Published many times since and with full sound and video currently on YouTube. 
 

Phaedrus 

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

First published in 1879 in the Salt Lake Tribune. Published many times since and with full sound and video currently on YouTube. ...............

The late Krister Stendahl (former Dean of Harvard Divinity School, as well as Lutheran Bishop and head of the State Church of Sweden), speaking on LDS baptism for the dead:  

Quote

 In a world where we finally have learned what I call the “holy envy,” it’s a beautiful thing.  I could think of myself as taking part in such an act, extending the blessings that have come to me in and through Jesus Christ.  That’s generous.  That’s beautiful.  And it should not be ridiculed or spoken badly of.  “Between Heaven and Earth,” Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints full-length DVD (Intellectual Reserve, 2002/2005), at 28:40, online at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TbENguf6Ng .

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/17/2018 at 2:23 PM, Spammer said:

Perspective. I was raised LDS, seminary grad, with mission, temple marriage and proxy work afterward. As someone with faithful, adult experience in both traditions, I don’t see the endowment in the Bible. I perceive a direct linkage between the ancient temple liturgy and Catholic liturgies. Hence, my conversion.

You are certainly correct to see that linkage.  See the following non-Mormon scholarship:

Barker, Margaret, “The Temple Roots of the Liturgy,” at www.marquette.edu/maqom/roots , as part of theme 14 of the Marquette University (Milwaukee) Seminar on the “Jewish Roots of Christian Mysticism” (March 2002 -    ).  Also online at http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/TempleRootsofChristianLiturgy.pdf .

Barker, Margaret, Temple Theology: An Introduction (London: SPCK, 2004).  “It is beyond doubt that the faith of the temple became Christianity....  The gospel as it was first preached by Jesus, and as it was developed and lived by the early Church, concerned the restoration of the true temple” (11).  See www.margaretbarker.com  .

Gavin, F., The Jewish Antecedents of the Christian Sacraments (London: SPCK, 1928/ reprint, N.Y.: Ktav, 1969).

Oesterley, William O. E., The Jewish Background to the Christian Liturgy (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1925/ reprint Gloucester, Mass.: P. Smith, 1965).

Werner, Eric, The Sacred Bridge: Liturgical Parallels in Synagogue and Early Church, 2 vols. (N.Y.: Columbia Univ./London: D. Dobson, 1959/ 1963/ Schocken, 1970/KTAV, 1984).
 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Spammer]

53 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are certainly correct to see that linkage.  See the following non-Mormon scholarship:

Barker, Margaret, “The Temple Roots of the Liturgy,” at www.marquette.edu/maqom/roots , as part of theme 14 of the Marquette University (Milwaukee) Seminar on the “Jewish Roots of Christian Mysticism” (March 2002 -    ).  Also online at http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/TempleRootsofChristianLiturgy.pdf .

Barker, Margaret, Temple Theology: An Introduction (London: SPCK, 2004).  “It is beyond doubt that the faith of the temple became Christianity....  The gospel as it was first preached by Jesus, and as it was developed and lived by the early Church, concerned the restoration of the true temple” (11).  See www.margaretbarker.com  .

Gavin, F., The Jewish Antecedents of the Christian Sacraments (London: SPCK, 1928/ reprint, N.Y.: Ktav, 1969).

Oesterley, William O. E., The Jewish Background to the Christian Liturgy (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1925/ reprint Gloucester, Mass.: P. Smith, 1965).

Werner, Eric, The Sacred Bridge: Liturgical Parallels in Synagogue and Early Church, 2 vols. (N.Y.: Columbia Univ./London: D. Dobson, 1959/ 1963/ Schocken, 1970/KTAV, 1984).
 

My readings in the patristic literature, followed by Barker’s ‘Great High Priest,’ set me on the Catholic path a decade ago. Werner is sitting on my shelf. I picked it up a few years ago, after I saw you reference it in a post. I need to do more than just scan the book and get it read! My problem is, whenever I discover a new book, l discover two more. I’m plowing through Barker’s book on the Apocalyse of John now. I’m about half way. Fascinating stuff!

Edited November 21, 2018 by Spammer

[ERMD]

On 11/17/2018 at 3:17 PM, JLHPROF said:

One drop of water may or may not be evidence of rain.  The more drops, the more likely it's raining.

There are pieces of the temple ordinances scattered all through the Bible.  Virtually the entire endowment ceremony is represented in the Bible somewhere.  Genesis is merely the most complete.  

A few references from Revelation:

2:17; 2:28-29; 3:5; 3:12; 3:21

[2BizE]

Members make covenants not to disclose the signs and tokens learned in the temple.  Those same signs and tokens originate from Freemasonry, so they are not really ours anyway...

[Calm]

5 hours ago, 2BizE said:

 Those same signs and tokens originate from Freemasonry, so they are not really ours anyway...

The alphabet isn't really ours by the rule either.  Do you have any issues using that?

[ERMD]

.

 

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Members make covenants not to disclose the signs and tokens learned in the temple.  Those same signs and tokens originate from Freemasonry, so they are not really ours anyway...

Are you sure about that?  Any idea where the freemasons got them?  Because if you do you know more than the masons do.

They have no idea how they came about, only that modern masonry passed them on without writing them down for centuries, their origin the stuff of legend attributed variously to Solomon, Noah, and even Father Adam.  But no record of their origin in masonry exists.

We can claim they originated from masonry but that is a limited perspective given the evidence.  The unbeliever has no idea where they came from, because it's not recorded in history.

Edited November 25, 2018 by JLHPROF

[Scott Lloyd]

On 11/18/2018 at 12:31 AM, mfbukowski said:

The Isaiah nail stuff, Exodus 40 annointings,  Hebrews 9 and 10 veil stuff, someone might look those up, I don't have time at the moment.

Baptism for dead, celestial terrestrial bodies, tell the vision to no man at transfiguration, just a few off the top of my head.

Exodus 40:12-13 re: washing and anointing. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Scott Lloyd