10THAmendment Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 2:52 PM, ksfisher said: So are you saying we should reject the words of the Lord’s prophets and apostles on this issue and pay more attention to what society teaches? I would say to pray about teachings that you have questions about. While I agree with what Elder Oak's said, there have been other things that I have not agreed with and have a bad feeling about. I think I am in the right to seek personal revelation about certain things since there is a history of church leaders expressing personal opinion as doctrine, which the church later had to disavow. And to be fair, the church itself changes policies to adhere to societal norms. They gave up the temporal practice of polygamy because of outside pressure and allowed black people to have the priesthood because of the civil rights movement zeroing in on the church. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see women holding the priesthood in the next 30 years or so when the church faces huge pressure from the feminist movement.
Jeanne Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, 10THAmendment said: I would say to pray about teachings that you have questions about. While I agree with what Elder Oak's said, there have been other things that I have not agreed with and have a bad feeling about. I think I am in the right to seek personal revelation about certain things since there is a history of church leaders expressing personal opinion as doctrine, which the church later had to disavow. And to be fair, the church itself changes policies to adhere to societal norms. They gave up the temporal practice of polygamy because of outside pressure and allowed black people to have the priesthood because of the civil rights movement zeroing in on the church. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see women holding the priesthood in the next 30 years or so when the church faces huge pressure from the feminist movement. I agree with all of this.
Tacenda Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) On 10/6/2018 at 11:42 AM, kllindley said: I am loving Elder Oaks's talk, but I keep hearing bits that I predict the discontented are going to attack. Viciously. Because it is needed. Believe me when I say it is going to get even worse, since the huge suicide problem in the Utah/Idaho area has been skyrocketing. And from what I've heard, several suicides since even Oaks' talk. Time to get rid of the policies that cause death, men aren't Gods and they aren't getting the message of love for these individuals, they are making it far worse. I know with all of my heart, God isn't happy at all about this. Listened to this podcast this morning...this man had the love of his ward throughout, but the guantlet is probably going to come down hard on him since his disciplinary hearing is coming up on the 16th. https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/dusty-johns/ Edited October 12, 2018 by Tacenda
Rivers Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Stargazer said: Whether his argument holds up or not, "latter-day saints" ought to be perfectly acceptable. Paul used "saints" many times to refer to members of the Church. By that logic, we can also refer to ourselves as Christians since that is the term used in the Book of Mormon in referring to members of the church. If we are supposed to drop LDS and Mormon, Latter-day Saint is the next best way to refer ourselves and it’s kosher to use according to the Church’s press release. Edited October 12, 2018 by Rivers
stemelbow Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) Referring to oneself as a saint is pretty off-putting in our culture today. It's self-aggrandizing and has become taboo since saints are named after their death. In that sense it's much better to refer to oneself as Mormon than a Latter-day Saint. latter-day Saint is kind of a lame term. People who hear it think, "Oh so you mean Mormon?" Or "that sounds like an incredibly proud way to talk about oneself...but to each his own I suppose". I"m guessing it's more off-putting and will have more of a negative effect than Mormon. Edited October 12, 2018 by stemelbow
Rivers Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Referring to oneself as a saint is pretty off-putting in our culture today. It's self-aggrandizing and has become taboo since saints are named after their death. In that sense it's much better to refer to oneself as Mormon than a Latter-day Saint. latter-day Saint is kind of a lame term. People who hear it think, "Oh so you mean Mormon?" Or "that sounds like an incredibly proud way to talk about oneself...but to each his own I suppose". I"m guessing it's more off-putting and will have more of a negative effect than Mormon. Then people need to educated on the biblical use of the word “saint.” 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 9 hours ago, Gray said: The objection is also to calling members of the Church Mormons. Or even shorting Latter-day Saints to LDS. ETA: Also, the term "Mormonism" Yes. And therefore, what?
Scott Lloyd Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Referring to oneself as a saint is pretty off-putting in our culture today. It's self-aggrandizing and has become taboo since saints are named after their death. In that sense it's much better to refer to oneself as Mormon than a Latter-day Saint. latter-day Saint is kind of a lame term. People who hear it think, "Oh so you mean Mormon?" Or "that sounds like an incredibly proud way to talk about oneself...but to each his own I suppose". I"m guessing it's more off-putting and will have more of a negative effect than Mormon. “Mormon” is not necessarily off- putting, just misleading as it pertains to the name of the Church. And if we possess the truth, why should we bind ourselves to sectarian or societal misconceptions about the meaning of “saints” or anything else. Didn’t your mother ever tell you not to do things just to follow the crowd? Edited October 12, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
2BizE Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 11:50 AM, provoman said: Gender is eternal. Male + female marriage. How do you know gender is eternal?
stemelbow Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Rivers said: Then people need to educated on the biblical use of the word “saint.” I think people will get along just fine without considering the biblical use of the word. There’s no need there.
stemelbow Posted October 12, 2018 Posted October 12, 2018 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: “Mormon” is not necessarily off- putting, just misleading as it pertains to the name of the Church. And if we possess the truth, why should we bind ourselves to sectarian or societal misconceptions about the meaning of “saints” or anything else. Didn’t your mother ever tell you not to do things just to follow the crowd? Mormon accurately describes members of the lds church. It also very clearly describes the lds church. I find Nelson’s reasoning lacking. Mormonism will live on
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: I think people will get along just fine without considering the biblical use of the word. There’s no need there. That’s up to them, but I don’t need to be bound by their choice — or yours, for that matter. Edited October 13, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Mormon accurately describes members of the lds church. It also very clearly describes the lds church. I find Nelson’s reasoning lacking. Mormonism will live on The Church of Jesus Christ does not self-identify as “the Mormon Church,” and you have no authority to insist that it does.
sunstoned Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 4 hours ago, stemelbow said: Mormon accurately describes members of the lds church. It also very clearly describes the lds church. I find Nelson’s reasoning lacking. Mormonism will live on I would think that the term mormon is the name most used to dentify the church. I agree that the name will live on. LDS leaders have no authority to insist the general public comply with their wishes. 1
Stargazer Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 8 hours ago, Rivers said: By that logic, we can also refer to ourselves as Christians since that is the term used in the Book of Mormon in referring to members of the church. Of course! It's perfectly logical. 8 hours ago, Rivers said: If we are supposed to drop LDS and Mormon, Latter-day Saint is the next best way to refer ourselves and it’s kosher to use according to the Church’s press release. No argument here.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, sunstoned said: I would think that the term mormon is the name most used to dentify the church. I agree that the name will live on. LDS leaders have no authority to insist the general public comply with their wishes. The general public will suit themselves; all we can do is request. But I do believe we are obliged as covenant-bound members of the Church to give heed to instructions from the prophet and president of the Church as he receives them by revelation. That’s in the scriptures. And how can we expect outsiders to honor the expressed preference of the Church regarding its name when members themselves won’t do it? Edited October 13, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
CMZ Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, sunstoned said: I would think that the term mormon is the name most used to dentify the church. I agree that the name will live on. LDS leaders have no authority to insist the general public comply with their wishes. The name of the Church was never, "The Mormon Church." The recent emphasis is not about insisting that the general public comply with their wishes; it is more about members using the correct name so that non-members don't use the incorrect name on the basis of members using the incorrect name. I've seen people wrongly go online and tell members, "We're offended that you call us Mormons!" But that represents a misunderstanding of the issue. Fortunately, President Nelson said, "We will want to be courteous and patient in our efforts to correct these errors." A footnote in that talk by President Nelson states: Quote While we have no control over what other people may call us, we are in complete control over how we refer to ourselves. How can we expect others to honor the correct name of the Church if we as its members fail to do so?https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=eng#note14 Edited October 13, 2018 by CMZ 2
stemelbow Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Church of Jesus Christ does not self-identify as “the Mormon Church,” and you have no authority to insist that it does. I didn’t insist anything. I merely pointed out the obvious—Mormon quite accurately refers to the lds church. Nelson’s reasoning is lacking and his initiative in time will be defeated. I imagine even the most letter by the law members, like you, Will, in time, come back around. It’s been a bit of a silly distraction.
stemelbow Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 8 hours ago, sunstoned said: I would think that the term mormon is the name most used to dentify the church. I agree that the name will live on. LDS leaders have no authority to insist the general public comply with their wishes. Yep.
Avatar4321 Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 15 hours ago, stemelbow said: Mormon accurately describes members of the lds church. It also very clearly describes the lds church. I find Nelson’s reasoning lacking. Mormonism will live on But it doesn’t clearly describe the Church of Jesus Christ. which I believe was President Nelson’s point 1
stemelbow Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said: But it doesn’t clearly describe the Church of Jesus Christ. which I believe was President Nelson’s point Sure it does. Everytime anyone says Mormon church you know exactly what they are talking about. You can’t honestly say otherwise.
Rivers Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 This whole thing kind of reminds me of the PC crowd insisting we have to use certain terminology for everything. And I hate the policing of language. So I’m not exactly having a party with it. But I will do my best to comply with the prophet’s wishes. 🎶I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ....🎶
Maestrophil Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 19 hours ago, 2BizE said: How do you know gender is eternal? And this gets to the crux of the entire discussion. I suppose that I, of myself,do not know that it is. BUT - When a prophet of God (or several prophets in this case) says it is, and the spirit testifies to my soul that their words are true, then that is how I know... your mileage may vary. 🙂 That is what is so tiresome for us all on both sides of the belief fence with these discussions IMO - it all comes down to having a testimony of living prophets or not. 3
rockpond Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 19 minutes ago, Maestrophil said: And this gets to the crux of the entire discussion. I suppose that I, of myself,do not know that it is. BUT - When a prophet of God (or several prophets in this case) says it is, and the spirit testifies to my soul that their words are true, then that is how I know... your mileage may vary. 🙂 That is what is so tiresome for us all on both sides of the belief fence with these discussions IMO - it all comes down to having a testimony of living prophets or not. I think, rather, it comes down to how the Spirit testifies to each of us. I have a testimony of living prophets but included in the testimony is the understanding that they can be mistaken. They can, at times, take us down incorrect courses. We saw that very clearly at this last conference. 4
Avatar4321 Posted October 13, 2018 Posted October 13, 2018 22 minutes ago, rockpond said: I think, rather, it comes down to how the Spirit testifies to each of us. I have a testimony of living prophets but included in the testimony is the understanding that they can be mistaken. They can, at times, take us down incorrect courses. We saw that very clearly at this last conference. Then prudence suggests we obtain a testimony of the specific principles they are teaching. that is one of the things I love about the restored Church of Jesus Christ, we can obtain testimonies not only of the calling of prophets and authorities over us, but of the principles they teach us 3
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