Ouagadougou Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, rockpond said: Well, we certainly can’t expect straight members to be celibate just because their spouse has passed away. Just pointing out the fact that he and Elder Oaks are sealed to more than one woman, which, by definition, is spiritual polygamy. For some reason, many members can't fully grasp that they practice spiritual polygamy, with more than one wife being the eternal family unit. 1
rockpond Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Just pointing out the fact that he and Elder Oaks are sealed to more than one woman, which, by definition, is spiritual polygamy. For some reason, many members can't fully grasp that they practice spiritual polygamy, with more than one wife being the eternal family unit. Yes, plural marriage is still a doctrine of the Church. We just don’t practice it in mortality. Well, we practice it serially just not concurrently.
Navidad Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/635197769/Elder-Nelson-marries-BYU-professor.html He married his second wife in the temple--and is sealed to two different women. How is that not spiritual polygamy? So yes...male + females is the eternal family unit they embrace. I don't know much about this, but I have been to Ouagadougou!
Tacenda Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Calm said: http://www.lgbtmap.org/file/talking-about-suicide-and-lgbt-populations-2nd-edition.pdf The talks by many LDS leaders over many years in the timeline below have done damage. http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Timeline_of_LGBT_Mormon_history In fact I have no doubt it is why my gay nephew on my husband's side tried to commit suicide, or it stems from how those surrounding him treated him after listening to the leaders' talks. He told my MIL the other day that the church's stance had a horrible affect on him early on. And the talks just keep coming. Can't Oaks just let it go? Let it go because members know how the leaders feel by now. Maybe save some lives, and don't bring it up in conference or elsewhere any longer. Also, below is a quote from the article you linked and discrimination is pretty huge. From your article: "Studies have also identified a number of factors associated with the higher prevalence of suicidal behavior in LGBT individuals. These include: • Social isolation and low self-esteem, substance abuse, depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues, often resulting from or worsened by stigma and discrimination. • Experiences of prejudice and discrimination, including family rejection, bullying, cyberbullying, harassment and mistreatment. • Laws and public policies that encourage stigma and discrimination, as well as the lack of laws and policies that protect against discrimination." Edited October 23, 2018 by Tacenda
Kenngo1969 Posted October 23, 2018 Posted October 23, 2018 8 hours ago, Navidad said: I don't know much about this, but I have been to Ouagadougou! You're well-traveled, then.
USU78 Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 21 hours ago, Tacenda said: Did I say quoting or riffing on Bible themes caused this? Nope, I said the LDS church's stance on homosexuality, has led to suicides, IMO. And Pres. Packer's talk to young men in the PH session in the late 70's and again in the General LDS conference in the 2000's, probably didn't help, and mostly likely contributed, this is my opinion. And when reading statistics, I feel very confident that it's true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_Mormon_suicides Found this as well, interesting timeline on LDS homosexuals. http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Timeline_of_LGBT_Mormon_history These are lies. They are slanders. You know this because you have participated in threads where that was demonstrated and not only by me. You should be ashamed to repeat dangerous slanders with such carelessness. 4
Tacenda Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, USU78 said: These are lies. They are slanders. You know this because you have participated in threads where that was demonstrated and not only by me. You should be ashamed to repeat dangerous slanders with such carelessness. CFR that these are lies please.
USU78 Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 35 minutes ago, Tacenda said: CFR that these are lies please. You are being disingenuous. We've been over this many times. It is a lie that having beliefs and advocating for those beliefs ever was proximate cause for a suicide. At most it's background noise. Blame the mental illness, as that is the proximate cause. Blaming believers for believing is dangerous, rabble-rousing bigotry. Folks have a right to believe. Folks even have a right to be dangerous, rabble-rousing bigots. You, however, have no right to slander dead guys by saying they murder from their graves by their beliefs and advocacy of those beliefs while alive. 1
california boy Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, USU78 said: These are lies. They are slanders. You know this because you have participated in threads where that was demonstrated and not only by me. You should be ashamed to repeat dangerous slanders with such carelessness. From the information that Tacenda referred to, which one of these statements are lies. I second a CFR of your claim that these are lies. Quote Suicide attempts and ideation have been experienced by many LGBT Mormons. In a 2015 survey of 92 LGBTQ BYU students done by USGA, 52% had at some point considered self-harm.[20] Below is a list of a few LDS LGBTQ individuals who reported serious suicidal ideation or suicide attempts. Alex Cooper — Lesbian Mormon teen. Cooper was subjected to physically and emotionally abusive conversion therapy techniques under her Mormon parents' orders beginning in 2010 in an attempt to change her sexual orientation. She reported attempting suicide.[20][21][22] Davyd Daniels — Daniels reported to The New York Times in 1986 that he had attempted suicide at the age of 12 due to the guilt caused by church teachings on his gay feelings.[23] Clay Essig — Essig reported writing a note while at the brink of suicide after years of trying to change his attractions through therapy originally prescribed to him by his BYU bishop.[24] Levi Jackman Foster — Foster is a gay photographer[25][26] and activist[27] raised Mormon in Alaska. He reported that, he feared rejection when he came out to himself at 15 and had suicidal thoughts and tried to pray the gay away and later participated in Evergreen conversion therapy in Utah.[28] Tyler Glenn — Neon Trees lead singer Glenn stated that he was trying to reconcile his sexual orientation and belief in the Mormon church when the 5 November 2015 policy change was leaked leading to a feeling that church was a "toxic space", for him generating feelings of suicide.[29] Judd Hardy – The teenage son of bishop David Eccles attempted suicide in early 1999 after coming out to family in 1995 and going through reparative therapy in an attempt to change his sexual attraction as church pamphlets said was possible. His suicide attempt happened right after a church meeting lesson on Sodom and Gomorrah. Hardy stated that it, "wasn't [done] out of despair as much as it was [done] almost out of duty. ... The church wanted me to change, and ... I couldn't change .... It was a quick resolution before doing the damage of falling into a life of sin. I believed too strongly in the church and the church's values, and I placed those above my own life." Hardy's parents would later become activists openly criticizing LDS church teachings on gay people.[30] Brenna McGrath — Bisexual BYU student Brenna McGrath stated in 2017 that she was attempting to overdose herself on medication after feeling isolated, and that church was a "toxic environment" for her.[20] McLean — Mormon composer Michael McLean stated that his gay son (whose first name was not stated) was suicidal during the church's California campaign to ban same-sex marriage.[31] Alison Kluzek — Kluzek reported that she was suicidal during a time after coming out to her religious parents as a trans woman while they initially refused her request to begin transitioning by hormone therapy. She felt that they would either have a dead son or a new daughter.[32] Jordan Montgomery — In the 2013 short documentary Families are Forever, teenage Montgomery discussed his suicidal ideation as well as the attempts of an LDS therapist to change his sexual orientation.[33][34] Alex Shafer — Shafer reported sliding into a suicidal depression after enter a mixed-orientation marriage at the end of his university studies. He had participated in Evergreen, seen several therapists, and prayed to become straight, but felt like a failure when his romantic attraction to other men did not change.[35] Craig Watts — In the 1999 PBS documentary Friends and Family: A Community Divided, Watts, then a young man, reported that he cried multiple times and thought of suicide again after coming out to local church leaders in Japan where he was studying and being excommunicated from the church.[36] A number of individuals[37][38] and organizations[39] have stated their belief that church teachings against homosexuality and the treatment of LGBT Mormons by other members and leaders has contributed to LGBT Mormon suicides.[40][20][41][42] In the late 90s psychiatrist Jeffery R. Jensen[43] directed his presentations' comments to church leaders and LDS Family Services stating that "far too many of our lesbian and gay youths kill themselves because of what you say about them," and "those who believe your false promises and remain celibate in the hopes of eventual 'cure' are consigned to a misery."[44][45] Soon after, The American Psychiatric Association disavowed therapy trying to change sexual orientation as ineffective and destructive,[46] though church leaders continued to advocate its effectiveness into the 2010s.[47][48]:17–20 Church leaders only began explicitly stating that same-sex physical attractions were not a choice in 2012[48]:21 and that therapy focusing on a change in sexual orientation was unethical in 2016.[49] Below is a few media-reported suicides of LGBT individuals from Mormon backgrounds, with the year of death noted in parentheses. Carlyle Marsden (1976) — BYU music professor Marsden completed suicide[50] two days after being outed by an arrest for alleged homosexual activity.[51][52][53] Unnamed (1980s) — A gay BYU student completed suicide a few months into a mixed-orientation temple marriageencouraged by his stake president Richard Cracroft who was a BYU professor. Cracroft later stated in reference to the event that, "admittedly, not many of us [church leaders] know how to counsel homosexuals."[54] Unnamed (1987) — Painter Randall Lake (who was gay and had married a woman in an LDS temple before leaving the marriage) produced several portraits of suicide including one of his Mormon boyfriend who had hung himself a few days after he was ostracized when they both came out.[55] Stuart Matis (2000) — 32-year-old Matis, a gay Mormon active in the church, completed suicide on 25 February 2000 on the steps of a California church stake center building.[56][57] His death came during the height of the LDS church's fight to ban same-sex marriage in California with Prop 22 also known as Knight's Initiative.[58][59] Shortly before his death he wrote a 12-page letter to his cousin in which he states that when he heard the church was asking members to donate time and money in support of Prop 22 he "cried for hours in [his] room" and he felt that the church's positions created an environment "hostile for young gay Mormons." The letter also stated "straight members have absolutely no idea what it is like to grow up gay in this church.... It is a life of constant torment, self-hatred and internalized homophobia."[60] The same month he also wrote a letter to the editor that was published in BYU's newspaper[20][61] pleading for the acceptance of homosexual individuals in response to a letter published five days before[62] which had compared homosexuality to pedophilia, bestiality and Satanism.[63] Right before his death he wrote a note stating, "The church has no idea that ... there are surely boys and girls on their callused hands and knees imploring God to free them of their pain. They hate themselves ... God never intended me to be straight. Hopefully, my death might be a catalyst for some good."[64][65] D.J. Thompson (2000) — Two weeks after Stuart's death a 33-year-old gay Mormon man in Florida completed suicide after writing a note referencing Stuart's death. The note stated that Proposition 22 was the "last straw in my lifelong battle to see peace in the world."[66][67] Clay Whitmer (2000) — Three weeks after Stuart's death, another gay Mormon in California who was involved in his church community was a victim of suicide. Whitmer, who had become close friends with Matis while the two were serving an LDS mission in Italy had attempted suicide six times over the space of several years, but completed suicide on the seventh time after Matis' death.[58][60][68][69] Bryan Michael Egnew (2011) — After 40-year-old Egnew came out as gay to his wife, she immediately left North Carolina with their children, his family shunned him, and local leaders excommunicated him within two weeks because he refused to denounce his sexual orientation. He completed suicide a few weeks later.[70][71] Jack Denton Reese (2012) — Seventeen-year-old Reese was from a small town in Utah where over 90% of the residents were LDS.[72] He completed suicide in 2012 after experiencing severe physical and verbal bullying at school.[73][74] Harry Fisher (2016) — Fisher was a 28-year-old BYU history student and had come out on Facebook about two months before his death on the 12th of February. He reported hearing anti-gay rhetoric from individuals around him and leaving church meetings to cry in his car.[75] Lincoln Parkin (2016) — Parkin was a 22-year-old man who grew up in Pleasant View, Utah and received an award in 2012 for reestablishing the gay-straight alliance at Weber High School after having a gay friend commit suicide.[76] He attended Westminster College and had attempted suicide before having experienced significant depression for a decade but completed suicide on the 6th of April.[77][78] Braxton Taylor (2016) — On the 23rd of September, 19-year-old Taylor, a student of Weber State University, completed suicide.[79] His story gained media attention when an LDS political candidate[80] criticized his suicide and sexual orientation as a sin of murder and homosexuality,[81][82] a statement which received national criticism.[83][84] Stockton Powers (2016) — After a suicide attempt in 2012, 17-year-old Stockton passed away from suicide in 2016. He reported in 2015 that many church members had stopped talking to him after he came out and excluded him from events, with even some mothers in his congregation stating they would not allow their sons to go to Scout camp if Stockton went.[85][86][87] 2
california boy Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 14 minutes ago, USU78 said: You are being disingenuous. We've been over this many times. It is a lie that having beliefs and advocating for those beliefs ever was proximate cause for a suicide. At most it's background noise. Blame the mental illness, as that is the proximate cause. Blaming believers for believing is dangerous, rabble-rousing bigotry. Folks have a right to believe. Folks even have a right to be dangerous, rabble-rousing bigots. You, however, have no right to slander dead guys by saying they murder from their graves by their beliefs and advocacy of those beliefs while alive. Doesn't answer the CFR. Either show what she linked to are lies or withdraw your statement. Did you even read the link? 3
Bernard Gui Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, Calm said: http://www.lgbtmap.org/file/talking-about-suicide-and-lgbt-populations-2nd-edition.pdf DON’T risk spreading false information by repeating unsubstantiated rumors or speculation about suicide deaths or why they occurred. Accurate information about the reasons for a suicide death can take days and even weeks to surface. Speculation about those reasons, even based on initial statements from friends or family, can fuel false narratives about suicide (for example, claims that multiple suicide deaths occurred because of the results of the 2016 elections) and contribute to the risk of suicide contagion. Organizations and advocates have a duty to rigorously confirm such incidents with medical authorities (or rely on credible media reporting) before commenting on them in public..... 10. DON’T use social media or e-blasts to announce news of suicide deaths, speculate about reasons for a suicide death, focus on personal details about the person who died, or describe the means of death.Research shows that detailed descriptions of a person’s suicide death can be a factor in leading vulnerable individuals to imitate the act. Also, avoid re-posting news, headlines or social media content with this kind of information. 11. DON’T idealize those who have died by suicide or create an aura of celebrity around them. Idealizing people who have died by suicide may encourage others to identify with or seek to emulate them. 12. DON’T use words like “successful,” “unsuccessful” or “failed” when talking about suicide. It can be dangerous to suggest that non-fatal suicide attempts represent “failure,” or that fatal attempts are “successful.” Instead, simply talk about a suicide death. Also, don’t use the phrase “committed suicide”; instead say a person died by suicide. The term “committed” is typically associated with acts for which people are blamed or “guilty.” In addition to being painful for the surviving family, this notion could discoura Edited October 24, 2018 by Bernard Gui 4
USU78 Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 42 minutes ago, california boy said: Doesn't answer the CFR. Either show what she linked to are lies or withdraw your statement. Did you even read the link? The logic is inescapable. To claim otherwise is to embrace magical thinking. The disease causes the ideation. The ideation causes the act. What parents, siblings, teachers, classmates, friends, neighbors, counselors, or religious leaders say or don't say, do or don't do makes little difference. They are all background noise. The disease causes it. This is not subject to much dispute, though the argument can be made that the suicide weaponizes the act, striking out in his pain. But that is the fangs of the coyote dying in the trap. It is dishonest, nay despicable to weaponize the suicide's pain for one's own political ends. Shame on such. Edited October 24, 2018 by USU78 Smelling error
rockpond Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, USU78 said: You are being disingenuous. We've been over this many times. It is a lie that having beliefs and advocating for those beliefs ever was proximate cause for a suicide. At most it's background noise. Blame the mental illness, as that is the proximate cause. Blaming believers for believing is dangerous, rabble-rousing bigotry. Folks have a right to believe. Folks even have a right to be dangerous, rabble-rousing bigots. You, however, have no right to slander dead guys by saying they murder from their graves by their beliefs and advocacy of those beliefs while alive. I think it is important to distinguish between the average believer and those who claim the title of prophet, seer, and revelator. The words of the latter certainly carry more weight to most Church members.
USU78 Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 40 minutes ago, rockpond said: I think it is important to distinguish between the average believer and those who claim the title of prophet, seer, and revelator. The words of the latter certainly carry more weight to most Church members. So ... you favor the silencing of religious leaders by the State? But the laity can say anything they want? Interesting. 1
strappinglad Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 If there is any city in North America in which there is more acceptance, tolerance, support programs, help lines etc. for LGBT folks than San Francisco , I am not aware of it, and yet there are stats about suicide and attempted suicide that are horrendous. This suggests that there are other factors that may be involved than just rejection by society or community or parents. Are there environmental issues? group psychology problems,? mental health concerns? This does not absolve people who bully or shun. https://archives.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/attempted-suicide-rates-among-sfs-lgbt-youth-could-grow-advocates-say/Content?oid=2461846 If all the acceptance that has grown in my lifetime nation wide has done nothing to stem the tide of suicides , something else may be triggering the increase. What that might be, I do not know. 2
rockpond Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 50 minutes ago, USU78 said: So ... you favor the silencing of religious leaders by the State? But the laity can say anything they want? Interesting. Not at all. That’s a bizarre stretch from what I wrote. I said absolutely nothing about silencing anything. In fact, what I said is something that a believing Latter-day Saint ought to agree with: teachings from our prophets, seers, and revelators carry more weight than those of the average member/believer. Noting the “like” from @Scott Lloyd which is amusing.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 37 minutes ago, rockpond said: Not at all. That’s a bizarre stretch from what I wrote. I said absolutely nothing about silencing anything. In fact, what I said is something that a believing Latter-day Saint ought to agree with: teachings from our prophets, seers, and revelators carry more weight than those of the average member/believer. Noting the “like” from @Scott Lloyd which is amusing. Context. USU78 said you have no right to slander deceased persons by claiming that their beliefs and advocacy of those beliefs is a proximate cause of suicide. You then appeared to rationalize such claims by drawing a distinction between Church leaders and those they lead. I don’t blame USU for concluding thereby that you would silence Church leaders even as you would excuse the rank-and-file, for that’s how your remark came across to me as well. Hence, my assent vote for USU’s post, which appears to have upset you into bringing my name into the conversation. 1
rockpond Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Context. USU78 said you have no right to slander deceased persons by claiming that their beliefs and advocacy of those beliefs is a proximate cause of suicide. You then appeared to rationalize such claims by drawing a distinction between Church leaders and those they lead. I don’t blame USU for concluding thereby that you would silence Church leaders even as you would excuse the rank-and-file, for that’s how your remark came across to me as well. Hence, my assent vote for USU’s post, which appears to have upset you into bringing my name into the conversation. Even that, which you claim I “appeared” to have done (but didn’t actually do) based on the context is still not even close to favoring “the silencing of religious leaders by the State”.
Tacenda Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, rockpond said: Even that, which you claim I “appeared” to have done (but didn’t actually do) based on the context is still not even close to favoring “the silencing of religious leaders by the State”. I'm in favor of silencing some religious leaders that don't even care to look into the subject they are rejecting. Or the people they are rejecting, or excluding from membership in the community or religion they are leaders in. They are so out of touch with the fact that it is biology, not mental illness, and certainly not a disease that we have the LGBTQ communities. They are breaking the commandment to not take the Lord's name in vain. They are speaking for God/Jesus and saying things that are false. The past LDS leaders would constantly harp that it was a choice for these people and they are not born that way. Well, turns out science proved that wrong. Just like we are now saying the past leaders got wrong the race and the priesthood, there will come a day that the younger generation that have had classes in biology will have to shake their heads and disagree. And instead will include the 6% or whatever percent of the population. Include them on the same playing field. One day it will come to that. And it will have been all for not, that these policies were put in place, and will have harmed rather than loved humans on this earth. Loved with the fullest extent of the word, not conditionally. Acceptance not partial acceptance. It's time to silence these leaders and ask and plead for leaders that actually do have a conduit to the spirit. And do the leg work and not bury their heads. https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/10/mormon-discussion-premium-crystal-scott-genetics-of-sex-and-gender/ Edited October 24, 2018 by Tacenda
HappyJackWagon Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 10 hours ago, USU78 said: The logic is inescapable. To claim otherwise is to embrace magical thinking. The disease causes the ideation. The ideation causes the act. What parents, siblings, teachers, classmates, friends, neighbors, counselors, or religious leaders say or don't say, do or don't do makes little difference. They are all background noise. The disease causes it. This is not subject to much dispute, though the argument can be made that the suicide weaponizes the act, striking out in his pain. But that is the fangs of the coyote dying in the trap. It is dishonest, nay despicable to weaponize the suicide's pain for one's own political ends. Shame on such. I find this disturbing. You seem to discount the impact others have on a person's suicidal ideation. Intense bullying isn't "background noise" and can have a serious negative impact on a person's consideration of suicide. Abusive family and friends, whether the abuse is physical, emotional, spiritual, verbal etc can impact on a person's self-image and impact on suicidal ideation. I think it's dangerous to ignore the impact of others because it basically excuses bad behavior as "background noise" that really doesn't matter or drive a person towards suicide. There may not be just one cause or driver, but I suspect there is a cumulative effect when society, and especially people close to a person treats them badly because of who they are, and/or tell them they are evil, deceived by Satan, perverse, or whatever. Do you realize that not everyone who commits suicide has a disease, or mental illness? Some people at influenced by their environment, including those people close to them, which is more than background noise. You greatly underestimate the influence bigoted behavior and rhetoric can have on a person.
clarkgoble Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) On 10/22/2018 at 9:28 PM, Ouagadougou said: Just pointing out the fact that he and Elder Oaks are sealed to more than one woman, which, by definition, is spiritual polygamy. For some reason, many members can't fully grasp that they practice spiritual polygamy, with more than one wife being the eternal family unit. I think there's a presumption that it'll all be sorted out in the millennium. Plus I think by and large people want to avoid discussions of polygamy. However the problem of the difference between men when they remarry and women when they remarry does bother a fair number of people. Edited October 24, 2018 by clarkgoble
provoman Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 On 10/22/2018 at 9:28 PM, Ouagadougou said: Just pointing out the fact that he and Elder Oaks are sealed to more than one woman, which, by definition, is spiritual polygamy. For some reason, many members can't fully grasp that they practice spiritual polygamy, with more than one wife being the eternal family unit. What does it matter if a person is sealed to more than one person.
Ouagadougou Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 13 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: I think there's a presumption that it'll all be sorted out in the millennium. Plus I think by and large people want to avoid discussions of polygamy. However the problem of the difference between men when they remarry and women when they remarry does bother a fair number of people. I think you make an interesting point that many want to avoid discussing polygamy. The church doesn't practice physical polygamy today, but it still practices spiritual polygamy. This means that the leadership embraces the eternal family unit being man + wives.
Ouagadougou Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 9 minutes ago, provoman said: What does it matter if a person is sealed to more than one person. It matters when some claim that the church no longer practices polygamy, when, in fact, it does practice spiritual polygamy.
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said: This means that the leadership embraces the eternal family unit being man + wives. This conclusion is not justified logically from the evidence available. It doesn't follow from your premises. I think you are making assumptions about what they believe and the possible outcomes they expect to happen. 1
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