Ouagadougou Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 Just now, kllindley said: This conclusion is not justified logically from the evidence available. It doesn't follow from your premises. I think you are making assumptions about what they believe and the possible outcomes they expect to happen. President Nelson is sealed to two different women. How is that an assumption?
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: It matters when some claim that the church no longer practices polygamy, when, in fact, it does practice spiritual polygamy. What do you even mean by spiritual polygamy? Would you say that any widow or widower who remarries is practicing spiritual polygamy?
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 Just now, Ouagadougou said: President Nelson is sealed to two different women. How is that an assumption? That isn't. It is a fact. This fact doesn't mean that he embraces an eternal unit of man + wives.
Ouagadougou Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, kllindley said: That isn't. It is a fact. This fact doesn't mean that he embraces an eternal unit of man + wives. He was sealed in the temple to two different women, meaning they are both his spiritual wives. It doesn't get any more obvious than that, IMO.
rockpond Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, kllindley said: That isn't. It is a fact. This fact doesn't mean that he embraces an eternal unit of man + wives. It doesn’t? So why did he consent to being sealed to a second woman? Are you suggesting that one of the two sealings won’t be in effect in the eternities?
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said: He was sealed in the temple to two different women, meaning they are both his spiritual wives. It doesn't get any more obvious than that, IMO. I've never heard of this term spiritual wives. Is that something he has used? If not, what does it mean? Do you believe that a sealing is only spiritual? Do you have any evidence that he believes both of those sealings will be in effect throughout eternity? Or could there possibly be another reason for sealing? Are women never sealed to two men? What happens to them? The fact that you think it is so obvious what Leaders beleive based on one observable fact reveals just how little you have actually though about the issue. 1
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, rockpond said: It doesn’t? So why did he consent to being sealed to a second woman? Are you suggesting that one of the two sealings won’t be in effect in the eternities? Absolutely. I don't mean to suggest it. I mean to assert it. I think it is clear that God has sometimes commanded polygamy be practiced on Earth. I don't believe that it happens in eternity. Is there any teaching, post manifesto, that suggests otherwise? I believe that there has been significant teaching about the importance of sealing beyond simplistic assumptions about family structure in the eternities. Edited October 24, 2018 by kllindley
Tacenda Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, kllindley said: I've never heard of this term spiritual wives. Is that something he has used? If not, what does it mean? Do you believe that a sealing is only spiritual? Do you have any evidence that he believes both of those sealings will be in effect throughout eternity? Or could there possibly be another reason for sealing? Are women never sealed to two men? What happens to them? The fact that you think it is so obvious what Leaders beleive based on one observable fact reveals just how little you have actually though about the issue. Kllindley, just a little surprised you don't know this. Joseph Smith has used the term spiritual wives. He had them. If Pres. Oaks got sealed/married to his second wife, you better believe that means he'll live with both throughout eternity. And I agree about the obvious comment, it's almost silly to not believe it's obvious. Especially when you know what goes on in the temple when being sealed to a spouse. And up until recently, I've always heard that the women will not be sealed to two men, but things change and it's case by case now.
rockpond Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, kllindley said: I've never heard of this term spiritual wives. Is that something he has used? If not, what does it mean? Do you believe that a sealing is only spiritual? Do you have any evidence that he believes both of those sealings will be in effect throughout eternity? Or could there possibly be another reason for sealing? Are women never sealed to two men? What happens to them? The fact that you think it is so obvious what Leaders beleive based on one observable fact reveals just how little you have actually though about the issue. What do you interpret the sealing ordinance to be if not eternal uniting two people has spouses?
rockpond Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, kllindley said: Absolutely. I don't mean to suggest it. I mean to assert it. I think it is clear that God has sometimes commanded polygamy be practiced on Earth. I don't believe that it happens in eternity. Is there any teaching, post manifesto, that suggests otherwise? I believe that there has been significant teaching about the importance of sealing beyond simplistic assumptions about family structure in the eternities. Plural marriage is still part of our doctrine. OD1 did not disavow the principle it just declared that we would stop practicing it here in mortality. Section 132 is still a part of our canon. 2
clarkgoble Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: I think you make an interesting point that many want to avoid discussing polygamy. The church doesn't practice physical polygamy today, but it still practices spiritual polygamy. This means that the leadership embraces the eternal family unit being man + wives. It is a little more complicated than that. For the living you're obviously right that there's serial polygyny but no polyandry. If one believes in eternal marriage that means it's still practiced. However for geneology & temple work the presumption is to seal them all and let God work it out. So by the same token if we count sealings like Oaks then we have to count the much more abundant sealings done by the extraction program. There we have both polygyny and polyandry. I think the better way of putting it - especially given how most members are uncomfortable with the topic - is that we have no clue how sealings work when done serially after one person is dead. Of course as I mentioned men can get resealed but women can't so for the living (as opposed to the dead) there is an asymmetry primarily due to the doctrine of polygamy. For reasons not exactly clear to me people who don't get uncomfortable with polygamy (polygyny) get very uncomfortable with the barest hint of polyandry even though Joseph did it (with a temporal/celestial distinction) and we continue to do it with temple work. I should note that some also see in D&C 132 the possibility of polandry with respect to Emma in verse 51, 54. Although it's pretty speculative (IMO). FAIR has up a page disputing this. My own view given Joseph's polyandrous marriages is that this was done because for reasons not clear Joseph didn't understand the idea of sealing of children. He thought to make the family one needed marriage. It's later with Brigham Young that the idea of adoptive sealings becomes doctrine. My position is that we really don't know what will happen in these relationships in the hearafter. I think the evidence is abundant that fallen humans can't really practice multiple marriages at the same time in a reasonable fashion. Edited October 24, 2018 by clarkgoble 1
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Kllindley, just a little surprised you don't know this. Joseph Smith has used the term spiritual wives. He had them. If Pres. Oaks got sealed/married to his second wife, you better believe that means he'll live with both throughout eternity. And I agree about the obvious comment, it's almost silly to not believe it's obvious. Especially when you know what goes on in the temple when being sealed to a spouse. And up until recently, I've always heard that the women will not be sealed to two men, but things change and it's case by case now. He used the term. Do you have any documentary evidence about what he meant by that term? Are you admitting that he did not see his polygamous marriages as identical to his marriage with Emma? I find it more than a little ironic that you are telling me what I better believe. ETA: Wasn't spiritual wife a Bennett term? Edited October 24, 2018 by kllindley 1
ALarson Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, kllindley said: Are you admitting that he did not see his polygamous marriages as identical to his marriage with Emma? I'm curious what you mean by this. Are you referring to the legal part? If so, I agree they were not identical in that area. But he was sealed to many of his wives prior to when he was actually sealed to Emma. So again, can you clarify what you are referring to here? Do you believe he felt they were all equal or identical? Edited October 24, 2018 by ALarson
Ouagadougou Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 17 minutes ago, kllindley said: I've never heard of this term spiritual wives. Is that something he has used? If not, what does it mean? Do you believe that a sealing is only spiritual? Do you have any evidence that he believes both of those sealings will be in effect throughout eternity? Or could there possibly be another reason for sealing? Are women never sealed to two men? What happens to them? The fact that you think it is so obvious what Leaders beleive based on one observable fact reveals just how little you have actually though about the issue. Many early church leaders were married/sealed to multiple wives. It's the sealing ordinance in the temple that it is for time and all eternity.
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: What do you interpret the sealing ordinance to be if not eternal uniting two people has spouses? Are not children also sealed to parents? Are not women also sealed to more than one spouse? Do you really believe that the celestial kingdom is a bunch of polyamorous relationships? Or that anyone who is sealed is just stuck with an abusive spouse? Really? 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: Plural marriage is still part of our doctrine. OD1 did not disavow the principle it just declared that we would stop practicing it here in mortality. Section 132 is still a part of our canon. So is Jacob. Nevermind. I'm not interested in defending my point of view if you don't take it seriously enough to actually answer the question. Go ahead and keep making your accusations and assumptions.
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 5 minutes ago, ALarson said: I'm curious what you mean by this. Are you referring to the legal part? If so, I agree they were not identical in that area. But he was sealed to many of his wives prior to when he was actually sealed to Emma. So again, can you clarify what you are referring to here? Do you believe he felt they were all equal or identical? No. I don't. I think that's obvious. Are you actually asking what I believe?
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said: Many early church leaders were married/sealed to multiple wives. It's the sealing ordinance in the temple that it is for time and all eternity. So, no. You don't have any evidence and you aren't willing to consider anything but the standard disaffected talking points. Got it.
Ouagadougou Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 25 minutes ago, kllindley said: I've never heard of this term spiritual wives. Is that something he has used? If not, what does it mean? Do you believe that a sealing is only spiritual? Do you have any evidence that he believes both of those sealings will be in effect throughout eternity? Or could there possibly be another reason for sealing? Are women never sealed to two men? What happens to them? The fact that you think it is so obvious what Leaders beleive based on one observable fact reveals just how little you have actually though about the issue. https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng "During the era in which plural marriage was practiced, Latter-day Saints distinguished between sealings for time and eternity and sealings for eternity only. Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings. The exact number of women to whom he was sealed in his lifetime is unknown because the evidence is fragmentary.24 Some of the women who were sealed to Joseph Smith later testified that their marriages were for time and eternity, while others indicated that their relationships were for eternity alone.25"
rockpond Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 Just now, kllindley said: Are not children also sealed to parents? Yes. Do you think that President Oaks and President Nelson were sealed to their current spouses as a father/child sealing? (There is a difference in the ordinance.) 1 minute ago, kllindley said: Are not women also sealed to more than one spouse? Yes. It is a recent development that the Church began letting that happen. Were Sister Nelson and Sister Oaks sealed to other men before being sealed to their current husbands? 2 minutes ago, kllindley said: Do you really believe that the celestial kingdom is a bunch of polyamorous relationships? Or that anyone who is sealed is just stuck with an abusive spouse? Really? No to both questions. But how does that apply to Pres/Sis Nelson and Pres/Sis Oaks? 3 minutes ago, kllindley said: So is Jacob. Yes. And? 3 minutes ago, kllindley said: Nevermind. I'm not interested in defending my point of view if you don't take it seriously enough to actually answer the question. Go ahead and keep making your accusations and assumptions. I've been taking it seriously and been answering your questions. I haven't made any accusations or assumptions other than discussing our doctrine and the implications of the temple ordinances. If that makes you uncomfortable, you don't have to respond.
Ouagadougou Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 Just now, kllindley said: So, no. You don't have any evidence and you aren't willing to consider anything but the standard disaffected talking points. Got it. https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng "During the era in which plural marriage was practiced, Latter-day Saints distinguished between sealings for time and eternity and sealings for eternity only. Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings. The exact number of women to whom he was sealed in his lifetime is unknown because the evidence is fragmentary.24 Some of the women who were sealed to Joseph Smith later testified that their marriages were for time and eternity, while others indicated that their relationships were for eternity alone.25"There is TONS of evidence. #cognitivedissonance
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said: https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng "During the era in which plural marriage was practiced, Latter-day Saints distinguished between sealings for time and eternity and sealings for eternity only. Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings. The exact number of women to whom he was sealed in his lifetime is unknown because the evidence is fragmentary.24 Some of the women who were sealed to Joseph Smith later testified that their marriages were for time and eternity, while others indicated that their relationships were for eternity alone.25" There is TONS of evidence. #cognitivedissonance Don't pretend I'm doubting the evidence of Joseph practicing plural marriage. That's dishonest. You use spiritual wife-a term used by Bennett. Intentional or ignorant? 1
Tacenda Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 7 minutes ago, kllindley said: He used the term. Do you have any documentary evidence about what he meant by that term? Are you admitting that he did not see his polygamous marriages as identical to his marriage with Emma? I find it more than a little ironic that you are telling me what I better believe. Well, it's a phrase that people use when they know/feel something is a given I guess, never meant it to be bossy sounding, sorry. BTW, did you know that Joseph was sealed to many of his wives before he was sealed to Emma in the temple? Crazy huh? I have to go somewhere so I don't have time to get the documentation on what Joseph meant, not sure where to go for that, but pulled up a wiki on his marriages and a wiki on what sealings mean, hope it helps. Again, I'm sorry to sound condescending if that's how I came across. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealing_(Mormonism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wive
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: Yes. Do you think that President Oaks and President Nelson were sealed to their current spouses as a father/child sealing? (There is a difference in the ordinance.) No. I was stating that the doctrine of sealing is more than just husband and wife for eternity. 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: Yes. It is a recent development that the Church began letting that happen. Were Sister Nelson and Sister Oaks sealed to other men before being sealed to their current husbands? I don't know. That is not my point. I was suggesting that there is a clear belief in letting God figure out how sealings organize heaven. 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: No to both questions. But how does that apply to Pres/Sis Nelson and Pres/Sis Oaks? I didn't suggest it did. That is not my point. I was suggesting that there is a clear belief in letting God figure out how sealings organize heaven. 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: Yes. And? And I don't read section 132 to necessitate a man + wives view of eternity. 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: I've been taking it seriously and been answering your questions. I haven't made any accusations or assumptions other than discussing our doctrine and the implications of the temple ordinances. If that makes you uncomfortable, you don't have to respond. I asked a serious question about post manifesto teaching about the idea of polygamous relationships in the celestial kingdom. I don't believe it. I don't believe it's been taught recently enough and consistently enough to qualify as doctrine. You seem to believe otherwise.
kllindley Posted October 24, 2018 Author Posted October 24, 2018 11 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Well, it's a phrase that people use when they know/feel something is a given I guess, never meant it to be bossy sounding, sorry. BTW, did you know that Joseph was sealed to many of his wives before he was sealed to Emma in the temple? Crazy huh? I have to go somewhere so I don't have time to get the documentation on what Joseph meant, not sure where to go for that, but pulled up a wiki on his marriages and a wiki on what sealings mean, hope it helps. Again, I'm sorry to sound condescending if that's how I came across. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealing_(Mormonism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith's_wive Thanks for the apology. It definitely came across that way. I don't find it odd or news that Joseph was sealed to other women first.
Ouagadougou Posted October 24, 2018 Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, kllindley said: Don't pretend I'm doubting the evidence of Joseph practicing plural marriage. That's dishonest. You use spiritual wife-a term used by Bennett. Intentional or ignorant? Temple sealing = marriage for time and all eternity to include after this life as a "spiritual wife" (eternal resurrected being).
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