changed Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, ALarson said: I believe it comes down to each of us praying and as you state, having the Spirit testify to us regarding certain issues. I agree, each of us needs to study it out - to study without cognitive dissonance, from all sources, then make evidence based decisions. Relying on any single authority figure I see as being lazy... it is lazy to not take responsibility for yourself, lazy to not think for yourself... lazy to not use multiple sources and resources. The easiest course in life to take is to "follow a single leader"... the harder, more correct approach, is to perform research using multiple authority figures (not one - multiple - ) then combine of all the available data, and create your own conclusions (not copy the conclusions of others). Edited October 14, 2018 by changed 1
Jeanne Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 In my view, the AP and any other newsprint has no obligation to follow a prophet. Why should they? The request doesn't change single thing other than the request is important only to the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 5 hours ago, rockpond said: I didn’t say that the I’m a Mormon campaign nullified the instruction to use the full name of the church. It did, however, promote and embrace the title of Mormon. But not as a name for the Church. There had been repeated instruction to the contrary. Both in the official handbook of the Church and in communications from the Church to the mass media. 1
Popular Post Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2018 Popular Post Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: In my view, the AP and any other newsprint has no obligation to follow a prophet. Why should they? The request doesn't change single thing other than the request is important only to the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are, of course, free to do what they want. But In the news profession, it is considered not just a matter of courtesy but a mark of professionalism — and certainly not irregular — to refer to an organization by its preferred title. There’s not a thing wrong with an entity expressing such a preference, and it strikes me as querulous and churlish to resent it when an entity does so. I quite willingly refer to the former Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as the Community of Christ, for example, because that is their current preference. Edited October 14, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 6
Scott Lloyd Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 5 hours ago, Gray said: "The name of the church" is the new "gay marriage" on this board! 😛 I don’t know what this is supposed to mean.
Jeanne Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: They are, of course, free to do what they want. But In the news profession, it is considered not just a matter of courtesy but a mark of professionalism — and certainly not irregular — to refer to an organization by its preferred title. There’s not a thing wrong with an entity expressing such a preference, and it strikes me as querulous and churlish to resent it when an entity does so. I quite willingly refer to the former Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as the Community of Christ, for example, because that is their current preference. Thank you for helping me be more understanding. Your POV has a good point 1
Calm Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t know what this is supposed to mean. He is saying it is the most popular/frequently referred to topic, I am guessing given the context of his comment. (Question on how a thread on "Elder Oaks" became a thread on the "Mormon", I responded more or less that all threads went that way right now, then Gray's comment) 1
rockpond Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 6 hours ago, Maestrophil said: To me, my feelings on any given subject are not enough for m to believe or disbelieve. I am not personally good enough at distinguishing the Spirit from my own feelings in some cases, and so accordingly, the feeling of the Spirit must be supported by the words of living and past prophets. The more 'evidence' I see scripturally and in testimony and admonition of prophets, the closer I get to belief'. In the case of President Oaks' gender comments, the supporting evidence I see in terms of other prophets and scriptures supporting gender as a feature of our identities jibes with the Spirit I feel supporting that message. Of course it is easier that my personal feelings are also in alignment with this principle/teaching. Other teachings have been supported by evidence and the spirit - but my feelings did NOT like them. I had to work harder to accept those teachings. If the Spirit tells me something isn’t true or not worth following, I won’t “work hard to accept” it. 3
Gray Posted October 14, 2018 Posted October 14, 2018 4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I don’t know what this is supposed to mean. Gay marriage was the topic that used to take over every thread, regardless of relevance to the opening post. Now it's the church's name. 1
rockpond Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: But not as a name for the Church. There had been repeated instruction to the contrary. Both in the official handbook of the Church and in communications from the Church to the mass media. Correct... We were just encouraged to call ourselves Mormon (I’m a Mormon, Mormon Helping Hands, Meet the Mormons). Church public affairs identified itself as Mormon (Mormon Newsroom). And the church branded it’s website and social media channels with the name Mormon. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 2 hours ago, rockpond said: Correct... We were just encouraged to call ourselves Mormon (I’m a Mormon, Mormon Helping Hands, Meet the Mormons). Church public affairs identified itself as Mormon (Mormon Newsroom). And the church branded it’s website and social media channels with the name Mormon. We were going with a term that had been widely applied to Latter-day Saints for generations. Now, a prophet has declared under inspiration it is time for that to change. 2
Popular Post CMZ Posted October 15, 2018 Popular Post Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: But not as a name for the Church. There had been repeated instruction to the contrary. Both in the official handbook of the Church and in communications from the Church to the mass media. Correct. It will help if we look at what Elder Ballard actually said so that we can stop thinking that he encouraged use of the term "Mormon" outside of a couple limited instances where it could be seen as an acceptable gateway to investigators and non-members then learning the full and correct name of the Church (my emphasis in underlines): Quote Let us develop the habit … of making it clear that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the name by which the Lord Himself has directed that we be known. Some may ask, what about the Internet sites such as Mormon.org as well as various Church-initiated media campaigns? As I said, referring collectively to members as Mormons is sometimes appropriate. As a practical matter, those outside of our faith come looking for us searching for that term. But once you open up Mormon.org, the proper name of the Church is explained on the home page, and it appears on each additional page on the site. It is impractical to expect people to type the full name of the Church when seeking to find us or when logging on to our website. While these practicalities may continue, they should not keep members from using the full name of the Church whenever possible. Let us develop the habit within our families and our Church activities and our daily interactions of making it clear that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the name by which the Lord Himself has directed that we be known. A recent opinion poll indicated that far too many people still do not understand correctly that Mormon refers to members of our Church. And a majority of people are still not sure that Mormons are Christian. Even when they read of our Helping Hands work throughout the world in response to hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, and famines, they do not associate our humanitarian efforts with us as a Christian organization. Surely it would be easier for them to understand that we believe in and follow the Savior if we referred to ourselves as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In this way those who hear the name Mormon will come to associate that word with our revealed name and with people who follow Jesus Christ. As the First Presidency asked in their letter of February 23, 2001: “The use of the revealed name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints …, is increasingly important in our responsibility to proclaim the name of the Savior throughout all the world. Accordingly, we ask that when we refer to the Church we use its full name wherever possible.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/the-importance-of-a-name?lang=eng This is all quite close to what President Nelson has recently said. It could help to read all of President Ballard's talk. Edited October 15, 2018 by CMZ 7
Scott Lloyd Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 2 hours ago, CMZ said: Correct. It will help if we look at what Elder Ballard actually said so that we can stop thinking that he encouraged use of the term "Mormon" outside of a couple limited instances where it could be seen as an acceptable gateway to investigators and non-members then learning the full and correct name of the Church (my emphasis in underlines): This is all quite close to what President Nelson has recently said. It could help to read all of President Ballard's talk. Thank you for quoting this talk from Elder Ballard. When Elder Ballard has spoken on this topic, I have come on this board to support it. More than a few have endeavored to shout me down with derision and with an attitude that this matter is inconsequential, but I have refused to back down. I feel somewhat vindicated by the recent statements from President Nelson. And I won’t stand by now and allow others to assert or imply that the Church leaders have not been consistent in their instruction to us regarding calling the Savior’s Church by His name! 2
Maestrophil Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 22 hours ago, changed said: When searching for evidence, do you take a broad approach - and use evidence from multiple peer-reviewed independent sources? Multiple religious writings, multiple subject field experts, multiple cultures? Evidence that is gathered from only one source, one viewpoint, one organization - does not sound like an honest, unbiased, and well-rounded approach. True - and I do. 🙂
Maestrophil Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 17 hours ago, rockpond said: If the Spirit tells me something isn’t true or not worth following, I won’t “work hard to accept” it. That is my point. I personally need more information than just my feelings or the spirit to insure my choice is correct. You may well be much better at knowing conclusively that it is the spirit that is speaking to you on all matters.
rockpond Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Maestrophil said: That is my point. I personally need more information than just my feelings or the spirit to insure my choice is correct. You may well be much better at knowing conclusively that it is the spirit that is speaking to you on all matters. I didn't intend to imply that I don't study things out as well. That is always part of the process. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 21 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: But not as a name for the Church. There had been repeated instruction to the contrary. Both in the official handbook of the Church and in communications from the Church to the mass media. So if the name of the Church really hadn't been fiddled with in a way that offended God, why the need for the correction regarding the name of the church? If the church had been so strong on this issue, why correct the direction and why acknowledge that the church had "unwittingly" been a part of not referring to the correct name of the church? It seems the crux of Nelson's argument is that the Lord revealed the name of the church and that the church wasn't following that revelation properly. But as you seem to be stating the church had never altered the official name of the church and in fact had in fact taught previously about how to properly reference to the church. So why the harsh language about "Mormon" being a victory for Satan because when we use the word it removes Christ from the name of the church, when it really did no such thing. 2
Avatar4321 Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/14/2018 at 1:15 PM, Jeanne said: In my view, the AP and any other newsprint has no obligation to follow a prophet. Why should they? The request doesn't change single thing other than the request is important only to the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It’s important to the Lord too
Avatar4321 Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: So if the name of the Church really hadn't been fiddled with in a way that offended God, why the need for the correction regarding the name of the church? If the church had been so strong on this issue, why correct the direction and why acknowledge that the church had "unwittingly" been a part of not referring to the correct name of the church? It seems the crux of Nelson's argument is that the Lord revealed the name of the church and that the church wasn't following that revelation properly. But as you seem to be stating the church had never altered the official name of the church and in fact had in fact taught previously about how to properly reference to the church. So why the harsh language about "Mormon" being a victory for Satan because when we use the word it removes Christ from the name of the church, when it really did no such thing. He never said using Mormon was a victory for Satan. he said removing Christ was. and that should be obvious 4
2BizE Posted October 15, 2018 Posted October 15, 2018 On 10/13/2018 at 11:27 AM, Maestrophil said: And this gets to the crux of the entire discussion. I suppose that I, of myself,do not know that it is. BUT - When a prophet of God (or several prophets in this case) says it is, and the spirit testifies to my soul that their words are true, then that is how I know... your mileage may vary. 🙂 That is what is so tiresome for us all on both sides of the belief fence with these discussions IMO - it all comes down to having a testimony of living prophets or not. I like your honesty. I do not really know either. 1
Maestrophil Posted October 16, 2018 Posted October 16, 2018 18 hours ago, 2BizE said: I like your honesty. I do not really know either. Thanks. I feel we all need to be charitable to each other knowing we are all doing our best to process with the tools and gifts we are given. 🙂
flameburns623 Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 12:42 PM, kllindley said: I am loving Elder Oaks's talk, but I keep hearing bits that I predict the discontented are going to attack. Viciously. Try this for size: https://rationalfaiths.com/the-ask-a-mormon-lesbian-podcast-oaks-personal-stories-from-lgbtq-mormons-303/
rongo Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 I don't do podcasts. Can you summarize? Thanks!
flameburns623 Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, rongo said: I don't do podcasts. Can you summarize? Thanks! What is the Riddle Scale? What are some of the comments which LGBTQ+ Mormons have heard? Why was President Oaks’ talk so terrible? These questions and more are discussed with Dr. Brian Simmons in this episode of the Ask a Mormon Lesbian Podcast
ksfisher Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 42 minutes ago, flameburns623 said: What is the Riddle Scale? What are some of the comments which LGBTQ+ Mormons have heard? Why was President Oaks’ talk so terrible? These questions and more are discussed with Dr. Brian Simmons in this episode of the Ask a Mormon Lesbian Podcast Perhaps in the future general conference will include a rebuttal time after each apostle speaks. 1
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