Ammon Bundy, socialists in the church?

[Walden]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

When we lived in Orem in the early nineties, our neighborhood was a hotbed of right-wing extremism. I was loudly accosted by a ward member for having a Bennett for Senate sign in my yard. Neighbors would come by and bear their testimonies that Bo Gritz was going to save our country from the New World Order. People got up in testimony meetings to warn us of the evils of the U.N., the Department of the Interior, and the teachers unions. Our Scout committee chairwoman hijacked an Eagle court of honor to tearfully explain the we were in the last days and we needed to stand fast against secret combinations like the Democrats. 

Fun times!

My LDS grandparents were staunch Democrats who spent most of their lives in California. They were, at one time, highly active, temple-attending, full tithe-paying members who held various high positions in their wards and who were very proud of their prolific LDS heritage.

Sadly, in the last decade of their lives, they refrained from attending the LDS church due to the negative comments that they would get in priesthood and relief society classes when others in their wards became aware of their strong support for the Democratic party. They didn't have issues with the LDS leadership or the conservative bent of the church as an institution, but they grew weary of the rude or belittling comments they received in their wards on Sundays and the need of various ward members to openly question their righteousness due to their political affiliations. And this was in California.

[rongo]

Degrees of separation (not sure how many, actually) . . . 

Ammon Bundy and his family used to be in our stake. The old man who was killed in the standoff up in Oregon was as well (I didn't know either of them). My understanding is that the pending constant legal troubles and incarceration has strained things, and that his wife is mulling over divorce and moving on. He's not getting out. 

Even closer to home: his attorney in the Oregon trial, Marcus Mumford, was a kid from Clifton, Idaho I steamrolled at home plate when I was 9 (he was catcher, and I Pete Rose'd him). When I read about the trial, my first thought was that that was a very uncommon name. When I sent the link to my dad, he said it's definitely him. He stuttered in an interview (Marcus had a bad stutter). No matter what one thinks about Bundy, the win at trial in Oregon was a huge upset, so good for Marcus Mumford! The government went for the home run, and tried to get him long-term on conspiracy and terrorism charges, instead of the slam-dunk (but less dramatic) trespassing charges. Immediately following the acquittal, U.S. Marshalls served papers to extradite to Nevada to stand trial. When Mumford asked to see the papers, he was tazed. It was crazy, and he wasn't belligerent or inappropriate about it. 

Small world! I haven't kept up on Bundy, but it seems to me that he will face a never-ending round of court and prison, even if he wins some of them. 

[hope_for_things]

17 minutes ago, rongo said:

Degrees of separation (not sure how many, actually) . . . 

Ammon Bundy and his family used to be in our stake. The old man who was killed in the standoff up in Oregon was as well (I didn't know either of them). My understanding is that the pending constant legal troubles and incarceration has strained things, and that his wife is mulling over divorce and moving on. He's not getting out. 

Even closer to home: his attorney in the Oregon trial, Marcus Mumford, was a kid from Clifton, Idaho I steamrolled at home plate when I was 9 (he was catcher, and I Pete Rose'd him). When I read about the trial, my first thought was that that was a very uncommon name. When I sent the link to my dad, he said it's definitely him. He stuttered in an interview (Marcus had a bad stutter). No matter what one thinks about Bundy, the win at trial in Oregon was a huge upset, so good for Marcus Mumford! The government went for the home run, and tried to get him long-term on conspiracy and terrorism charges, instead of the slam-dunk (but less dramatic) trespassing charges. Immediately following the acquittal, U.S. Marshalls served papers to extradite to Nevada to stand trial. When Mumford asked to see the papers, he was tazed. It was crazy, and he wasn't belligerent or inappropriate about it. 

Small world! I haven't kept up on Bundy, but it seems to me that he will face a never-ending round of court and prison, even if he wins some of them. 

Small world for sure.  

[smac97]

21 minutes ago, rongo said:

Even closer to home: his attorney in the Oregon trial, Marcus Mumford, was a kid from Clifton, Idaho I steamrolled at home plate when I was 9 (he was catcher, and I Pete Rose'd him). When I read about the trial, my first thought was that that was a very uncommon name. When I sent the link to my dad, he said it's definitely him. He stuttered in an interview (Marcus had a bad stutter). No matter what one thinks about Bundy, the win at trial in Oregon was a huge upset, so good for Marcus Mumford! The government went for the home run, and tried to get him long-term on conspiracy and terrorism charges, instead of the slam-dunk (but less dramatic) trespassing charges. Immediately following the acquittal, U.S. Marshalls served papers to extradite to Nevada to stand trial. When Mumford asked to see the papers, he was tazed. It was crazy, and he wasn't belligerent or inappropriate about it. 

I've litigated a few times against Marcus "Don't Tase Me, Bro!" Mumford.  

Not sure what to make of the tazing.  The news accounts suggested he was yelling in court, took an aggressive stance, etc.  Some links:

• https://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/as_trial_ends_surreal_scene_le.html
• https://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/11/us_marshals_file_probable_caus.html
• https://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2017/02/judge_dismisses_1_of_3_charges.html

Here's a video of the scuffle that led to the tasing (skip to 5:00 or so in):

There's no audio, but it looks rather like Marcus was misbehaving.  From the last link above:

Quote

A federal judge Thursday dropped one of three criminal charges against Marcus Mumford, Ammon Bundy's lawyer, and ruled he'll issue a verdict on the other two charges, not a jury.

U.S District Judge John C. Coughenour dismissed a charge that accused Mumford of creating a disturbance by impeding the official duties of government officers because it encompassed the same conduct alleged in the second count, failing to comply with official signs that prohibit the disruption of federal officers' official work.

...

Mumford's lawyer Michael Levine has argued that the deputy U.S. marshals engaged in "outrageous'' government misconduct and lacked authority to wrestle Mumford to the ground and stun him with a Taser gun while he was arguing on behalf of Bundy in a federal courtroom last fall. The scuffle occurred after Bundy was acquitted of all charges on Oct. 27, 2016, at the end of a five-week trial stemming from the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

"Here, the transcript and video footage do not support such a finding,'' the judge wrote. "The U.S. marshals' conduct does not rise to a level that 'shocks the conscience.' ''

Assistant U.S. Attorney Timothy J. Ohms this week defended the charges, contending Mumford was blocking marshals from taking Bundy back into custody at the end of trial. When Mumford resisted arrest, he was stunned with the Taser, Ohms said.

Coughenour said in his ruling: "It appears from the transcript and the courtroom video that defendant interfered with the marshals taking his client into custody.''

He referred to Mumford's argument to U.S. District Judge Anna J. Brown at the conclusion of the trial that Bundy is "free, Your Honor.''

Coughenour also denied a request by Mumford's lawyer to hold an evidentiary hearing before trial. The judge said the record as it stands is sufficient.

The judge wasn't swayed by Levine's arguments that the marshals didn't have authority to act against Mumford while he was advocating for his client in court or that the charges against him are vague.

Coughenour held that Congress authorized the Department of Homeland Security to establish regulations with criminal penalties relating to the protection of federal property similar to powers it has granted to the National Park Service, Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management.

"Defendant was not charged with violating the regulations for making arguments in the courtroom,'' the judge wrote. "At the heart of the allegations is that defendant interfered with the U.S. marshals taking custody of his client. A person of ordinary intelligence would understand that interfering with a U.S. marshal removing a defendant who was in their custody following the completion of court constitutes a disruption of the performance of a marshal's duties.''

A lawyer acting this way in court is way, way out of bounds, IMO.

Thanks,

-Smac

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I've litigated a few times against Marcus "Don't Tase Me, Bro!" Mumford.  

Not sure what to make of the tazing.  The news accounts suggested he was yelling in court, took an aggressive stance, etc.  Some links:

Here's a video of the scuffle that led to the tasing (skip to 5:00 or so in):

There's no audio, but it looks rather like Marcus was misbehaving.  From the last link above:

A lawyer acting this way in court is way, way out of bounds, IMO.

It didn't look that way in the video to me. For the life of me, I couldn't see any "blocking U.S. Marshalls from taking his client into custody." But, I wasn't there.  

Did he ever yell in court, take an aggressive stance, etc. when you litigated against him? 

Edited July 20, 2018 by rongo

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I've litigated a few times against Marcus "Don't Tase Me, Bro!" Mumford.  

Not sure what to make of the tazing.  The news accounts suggested he was yelling in court, took an aggressive stance, etc.  Some links:

• https://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/as_trial_ends_surreal_scene_le.html
• https://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/11/us_marshals_file_probable_caus.html
• https://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2017/02/judge_dismisses_1_of_3_charges.html

Here's a video of the scuffle that led to the tasing (skip to 5:00 or so in):

There's no audio, but it looks rather like Marcus was misbehaving.  From the last link above:

A lawyer acting this way in court is way, way out of bounds, IMO.

Thanks,

-Smac

The general opinion of the legal community here in oregon was that Marcus might have deserved a contempt citation but the tazing and tackling was way overboard.  The federal marshals were probably mad that they lost.

From what I understand the Marshalls were even ignoring the Judge's instructions to stand down.

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Danzo

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

It didn't look that way in the video to me. For the life of me, I couldn't see any "blocking U.S. Marshalls from taking his client into custody." But, I wasn't there.  

Did he ever yell in court, take an aggressive stance, etc. when you litigated against him? 

No.  He was a little . . . eccentric.  IIRC, he had a significant stutter at one point, which made it difficult for him to appear in court (though I may be confusing him with someone else).  Honestly, it's been so long I can't really recall the particulars.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 20, 2018 by smac97

[rpn]

IME, farmers and ranchers are the best environmentalist in the sense of exercising sustainable and good stewardship over lands and animals that I know.   And ones with whom I've discussed the Bundy situatiion, largely think they should pay reasonable rent on time.  

And many of them don't want in any way to be affliated with the Bundys (even while recognizing that Ammon is completely out there, more than his father). 

I think plenty of conservatives in the church wish the US government would stick to national defense, and real commerce issues and leave living up to people and local governments (like the constitution says).   And most I know have had personal family experience with needing a gun for meat or to protect themselves or livestock , and long family histories of using them appropriately and safely, so of course they object to government messing with them.

Yes there are members who have been vocal about there not being room in the church for Senator Reid, a notion that our leaders have carefully and continually debunked.  

Ammon Bundy's words or ideas deserve no discussion or notice at all.

[Oliblish]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

In this mortal world solar and wind power will always represent a tiny fraction of all the power needed to run human activities. If one wants to eliminate gas and oil and coal usage , one must make hydrogen and thorium viable.

Why is solar and wind limited to a tiny fraction of our power needs?  Do you have a number in mind?  In April of this year solar and wind power accounted for over 30% of electric power generation in Germany.  Solar power is booming in China.  I know there are hurdles to get past but I believe that renewable energy sources can become a significant part of the world's energy production.

I agree that nuclear power should be considered, but current public opinion makes that very difficult.  I see hydrogen as more of a battery technology, which can be important as well.

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Why is it that third world peoples must forever remain trapped in poverty because they are denied the use of the forms of energy that allowed first world peoples to prosper ?

I agree that we should not put too much of a burden on the developing world.  But I think renewable energy can work out very well for them in a lot of situations.  Small, inexpensive solar panels can provide single homes with light and other basic needs where there is no electric grid available.

[longview]

26 minutes ago, rpn said:

Yes there are members who have been vocal about there not being room in the church for Senator Reid, a notion that our leaders have carefully and continually debunked. 

Hope you don't mind but I would be very interested in seeing the references for church leaders' comments.

Edited July 20, 2018 by longview

[cinepro]

8 minutes ago, Oliblish said:

Why is solar and wind limited to a tiny fraction of our power needs?  Do you have a number in mind?  In April of this year solar and wind power accounted for over 30% of electric power generation in Germany.  Solar power is booming in China.  I know there are hurdles to get past but I believe that renewable energy sources can become a significant part of the world's energy production.

 

Until the wind always blows and the sun always shines, or battery storage becomes much more practical, there will be some pretty significant hurdles for solar and wind generated power.

And if battery storage does become a bigger part of the equation, can you imagine the waste being generated by all those batteries!

[strappinglad]

It should also be noted that electricity costs in Germany are extremely high .  29 Euro cents per KWH. All those wanting to freeze in the dark, hands( with mittens ) up. I wonder where the price will go if everyone must use electric cars ? How to destroy an economy 101 !!

[Danzo]

17 minutes ago, Oliblish said:

Why is solar and wind limited to a tiny fraction of our power needs?  Do you have a number in mind?  In April of this year solar and wind power accounted for over 30% of electric power generation in Germany.  Solar power is booming in China.  I know there are hurdles to get past but I believe that renewable energy sources can become a significant part of the world's energy production.

I agree that nuclear power should be considered, but current public opinion makes that very difficult.  I see hydrogen as more of a battery technology, which can be important as well.

I agree that we should not put too much of a burden on the developing world.  But I think renewable energy can work out very well for them in a lot of situations.  Small, inexpensive solar panels can provide single homes with light and other basic needs where there is no electric grid available.

Solar power can be a pretty good solution for single residence homes where the power need isn't great. Industrial use requires a much greater amount of power.  The problem with solar is that the energy is diluted.  The amount of acreage needed to replicate a standard nuclear power plant is astounding. I did a report on it in high school, I forget the exact number but it was a tremendous amount of land.

The other big problem is that our current AC power generation relies on large power plants to maintain the correct load frequency (60 hz in the US)  and keep it in sync.  Solar power is generated in DC and has to be converted to AC power using an inverter and the Sign wave has to match the 60 hz sign wave  everyone else is using.  

[Duncan]

Would it be wrong to assume Ammon is excommunicated? I can't imagine doing all this stuff and is a member in good standing

[Oliblish]

46 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Until the wind always blows and the sun always shines, or battery storage becomes much more practical, there will be some pretty significant hurdles for solar and wind generated power.

And if battery storage does become a bigger part of the equation, can you imagine the waste being generated by all those batteries!

Fortunately for us the sun shines quite a bit, and wind farms are built in windy areas.  I am not saying we can convert to 100% renewable energy any time soon, but we can and are expanding the usage of renewable energy.  We are certainly not limited to a "tiny fraction" of our power needs.

I understand that we need to be realistic and there are challenges getting to high percentages of our power coming from renewable sources, but I believe we are still in the "low hanging fruit" stage.  

To go beyond that we will need to be able to store energy.  There are a number of ways to do this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

I think an interesting option is to use excess solar energy to create hydrogen during the day.  This can be used in hydrogen fuel cells to generate electricity when needed or used to power hydrogen automobiles.

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Oliblish
minor wording

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, Oliblish said:

Fortunately for us the sun shines quite a bit, and wind farms are built in windy areas.  I am not saying we can convert to 100% renewable energy any time soon, but we can and are expanding the usage of renewable energy.  We are certainly not limited to a "tiny fraction" of our power needs.

I understand that we need to be realistic and there are challenges getting to high percentages of our power coming from renewable sources, but I believe we are still in the "low hanging fruit" stage.  

To go beyond that we will need to be able to store energy.  There are a number of ways to do this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

I think an interesting option is to use excess solar energy to create hydrogen during the day.  This can be used in hydrogen fuel cells to generate electricity when needed or used to power hydrogen automobiles.

 

It would be fantastic if we could harness the Casimir Effect.  This would apparently result in being able to access Zero-point energy.  This would possibly mean extracting energy from space itself.  

 

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I suppose there is no point getting into this here my bro, but I am interested in what you think the difference is and how clear cut the distinction is

Especially around such issues as the statement "I know the church is true"

I think that philosophy helps us immeasurably to make that a "rational statement" for example.  Without philosophy it is pretty meaningless to those who are secular.

Should we give up on those folks?

I see you as a friend and I am just interested in how you see it- no debates intended!

No prob bro. I believe there is a philosophy of religion. I now define religion more narrowly than I used to. I believe Buddhism is a philosophy with many similar tenets to Christianity. The difference being in Christianity the source of power is outside ourselves. There is a God/El/the power. Not so in Buddhism.  Maybe that will help you understand where I presently reside.  

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

Until the wind always blows and the sun always shines, or battery storage becomes much more practical, there will be some pretty significant hurdles for solar and wind generated power.

And if battery storage does become a bigger part of the equation, can you imagine the waste being generated by all those batteries!

The best is when you are talking to someone gloating about how their electric car causes no pollution and ask them where their electricity comes from.  The look on their faces when you tell them it's from burning coal is usually very entertaining.  

[Calm]

7 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That ward was definitely an outlier, but it was a cabal of about 5 families, who all just happened to live on my street. 

A friend once said that there is always one nutjob in every ward. When that person moves out, a replacement moves in, and if you don’t see a nutjob in your ward, that means it’s you. 😉

That sounds about right.

[cinepro]

6 hours ago, Oliblish said:

To go beyond that we will need to be able to store energy.  There are a number of ways to do this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_energy_storage

I think an interesting option is to use excess solar energy to create hydrogen during the day.  This can be used in hydrogen fuel cells to generate electricity when needed or used to power hydrogen automobiles.

 

I didn't mean to imply that batteries were the only way to store energy for use during the night.  It just seems like they'll be very common, especially for houses and small networks.

One system that I find interesting is this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity

It looks like it's already being used to good effect in several different places.

 

[RevTestament]

12 hours ago, cinepro said:

I didn't mean to imply that batteries were the only way to store energy for use during the night.  It just seems like they'll be very common, especially for houses and small networks.

One system that I find interesting is this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity

It looks like it's already being used to good effect in several different places.

Interesting but inefficient. I think the power source of the future will be fusion or thorium MSR plants. In off hours the unneeded excess heat of a thorium plant could be used for water desalinization or to heat molten salts in a large reservoir to be used at peak hours. It's ashame the US hasn't pursued these technologies more vigorously. We desperately need to kick the oil and coal habit for a number of reasons including our own health.

[aussieguy55]

Here is sunny Australia I have solar panels on my roof. I usually get a credit in my three monthly bill. It along with universal healthcare and gun control makes Australia a great place to live.  

[Unaffiliated]

20 minutes ago, aussieguy55 said:

Here is sunny Australia I have solar panels on my roof. I usually get a credit in my three monthly bill. It along with universal healthcare and gun control makes Australia a great place to live.  

Aren't there like many animals there that want to kill humans?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Unaffiliated said:

Aren't there like many animals there that want to kill humans?

No.

[Unaffiliated]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

No.

Stop stalking me and banning me from threads!