Ammon Bundy, socialists in the church?

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I think you're probably much more sophisticated in how you look at things than the average conservative that I've interacted with, someone that doesn't think through these issues in great depth and that may be more susceptible to conspiracy type thinking. 

What you've described is a caricature of an average conservative.  It's no more correct than the caricatures of the average democrats that I hear from time to time.  

[LoudmouthMormon]

I am a member of the conservative right.  I have planted over 100 trees on my property with my own hands.  I have participated in trail maintenance service projects in various parks and forests - organized through both church and work.  My family raises turkeys and chickens on our hobby ranch, and we are fine with notions of buying food locally.  I had my first solar panel in the '90's.  I joyously paid like thirty bucks for my first 60 watt-equivalent CFL bulb back in the mid 80's - which started illuminating my high school homework, and continued to illuminate my college homework and eventually my diploma.  I was recycling cans in the late '70's - right as aluminum started becoming a common thing.  Some of the deepest conversations I've had about our duty and stewardship over the earth, have been with not-highly educated good ol' boys out in the middle of nowhere at some county fair.  Don't be telling me about how the conservative right is anti-environment.

When people tell me about how the conservative right is anti-environment, I ask them about organic food.  Odds are, they feel somehow (and "feel" is the operative term here), that organic is healthier than a similar food without an organic label, but they are at a loss to say why, other than maybe mumbling something about Monsanto being evil.   Usually, "anti-environment" is an accusation from someone who holds and spouts anti-capitalist ideas, but doesn't realize it.

Edited July 20, 2018 by LoudmouthMormon

[hope_for_things]

6 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Perhaps.  But progressives/liberals also have copious amounts of "Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad!" types (and conspiracy mongers as well).

I don't take my cues on politics from political advocacy groups.  Not really.  I read news aggregator blogs/sites so as to get more of a cross-section of news sources.  I never watch news on TV (we don't have cable, and I don't have time anyway).  I read a lot.  I went to law school, so I have a great reverence for the Constitution (I find Originalism much, much more compelling than Living Constitution theory).  My father and brother and wife are all significant influences on my thinking.  And, of course, the precepts of the LDS Church are probably the biggest influence in my life.

Conservatism isn't a perfect fit for me, but it's the most proximate to my worldview (I have some fairly influential strains of Libertarianism in my thinking as well). 

Thanks,

-Smac

The people that I suspect Ammon Bundy's comments would resonate better with are Fox News, and conservative talk radio consumers.  Sadly enough, this was me earlier in life, and I can see a lot of what Ammon Bundy says as resonant with how I used to view the world.  

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What you've described is a caricature of an average conservative.  It's no more correct than the caricatures of the average democrats that I hear from time to time.  

Obviously there is a diversity of thought in every group.  This is why I asked if people agreed with some of what Ammon said, not necessarily everything he said.  

[smac97]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Just as an example, I invested in solar panels on my roof last year, and have been very pleased with this investment.  I have had multiple family members (orthodox Mormons) question my sanity on this decision and downplay the importance of solar and other forms of alternative energy largely because of their prejudice that has been informed by right wing propaganda.  

That sounds bizarre.  I know tons of people with solar panels, including many who are profoundly "orthodox" in their Mormonism.

I've never come across "right wing propaganda" that is critical of private ownership of solar panels.  That seems hard to believe.

Two years ago I bought an in-home freeze dryer.  The varied opinions on this item from friends and family has been interesting.  A few have scoffed at the price (it was admittedly an expensive item).  One such fellow looked at me as though I were a square egg.  Interestingly, the same week I bought my freeze dryer he bought a motorcycle for nearly the same amount I had spent on my purchase.  A year later I asked him how he was enjoying his bike.  He said that he hadn't ridden it for quite some time because of some mechanical issues.  I don't know if he rides it much or at all these days. 

Meanwhile, I have built up a huge store of 25-year-shelf-life food, including meats, cheeses, eggs, fruits, vegetables, ready-to-eat meals, sauces and gravies, snacks, and so on.  Just last night I put up a delicious chicken stew with rice, and also some mozzarella cheese and pepper jack cheese.  I have also purchased large quantities of dry goods (some from the Church, some from KSK Classifieds, some from bulk foods at WinCo, etc.), such as rice, wheat, sugar, oats, dehydrated potatoes, dehydrated carrots, dehydrated onions, milk powder, 9-grain cereal, beans, and so on.  More recently, I bought an "Instant Pot," which is just about the coolest invention ever.  I pulled out a five-gallon bucket of beans from my dry storage and spent about two weeks making batches of savory beans in the Instant Pot, then freeze drying them.  For the first time in my adult life, I am nearing my ambition of having a one-year supply of food for my family of eight.  And not just calories, but food that is tasty, nutritious, diversified, affordable (depends upon one's priorities, I guess), easy to make in an emergency, shelf-stable for many years, etc.

My next large "family/home infrastructure" investment will probably be solar panels.  The ROI appears to be improving substantiall year-over-year.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 20, 2018 by smac97

[hope_for_things]

7 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I am a member of the conservative right.  I have planted over 100 trees on my property with my own hands.  I have participated in trail maintenance service projects in various parks and forests - organized through both church and work.  My family raises turkeys and chickens on our hobby ranch, and we are fine with notions of buying food locally.  I had my first solar panel in the '90's.  I joyously paid like thirty bucks for my first 60 watt-equivalent CFL bulb back in the mid 80's - which started illuminating my high school homework, and continued to illuminate my college homework and eventually my diploma.  I was recycling aluminum cans in the late '70's.  Some of the deepest conversations I've had about our duty and stewardship over the earth, have been with not-highly educated good ol' boys out in the middle of nowhere at some county fair.  Don't be telling me about how the conservative right is anti-environment.

When people tell me about how the conservative right is anti-environment, I ask them about organic food.  Odds are, they feel somehow (and "feel" is the operative term here), that organic is healthier than a similar food without an organic label, but they are at a loss to say why, other than maybe mumbling something about Monsanto being evil.   Usually, "anti-environment" is an accusation from someone who holds and spouts anti-capitalist ideas, but doesn't realize it.

There are exceptions to every rule.  I'm not sure how you can contest that the conservative right is much more anti environment.  I would argue that Trump has made things even worse in recent years with his anti science statements on this topic.  

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/20/for-earth-day-heres-how-americans-view-environmental-issues/

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

The people that I suspect Ammon Bundy's comments would resonate better with are Fox News, and conservative talk radio consumers.  Sadly enough, this was me earlier in life, and I can see a lot of what Ammon Bundy says as resonant with how I used to view the world.  

Strange.  I'm very sociopolitically conservative, and very little he says resonates with me.  I think I can safely say the same about most similarly sociopolitically conservative Latter-day Saints of my acquaintance (I live in Utah County).

I guess we all have different experiences in life.

Thanks,

-Smac

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

That sounds bizarre.  I know tons of people with solar panels, including many who are profoundly "orthodox" in their Mormonism.

I've never come across "right wing propaganda" that is critical of private ownership of solar panels.  That seems hard to believe.

Two years ago I bought an in-home freeze dryer.  The varied opinions on this item from friends and family has been interesting.  A few have scoffed at the price (it was admittedly an expensive item).  One such fellow looked at me as though I were a square egg.  Interestingly, the same week I bought my freeze dryer he bought a motorcycle for nearly the same amount I had spent on my purchase.  A year later I asked him how he was enjoying his bike.  He said that he hadn't ridden it for quite some time because of some mechanical issues.  I don't know if he rides it much or at all these days. 

Meanwhile, I have built up a huge store of 25-year-shelf-life food, including meats, cheeses, poultry, fruits, vegetables, ready-to-eat meals, sauces and gravies, snacks, and so on.  Just last night I put up a delicious chicken stew with rice, and also some mozzarella cheese and pepper jack cheese.  I have also purchased large quantities of dry goods (some from the Church, some from KSK Classifieds, some from bulk foods at WinCo, etc.), such as rice, wheat, sugar, oats, dehydrated potatoes, dehydrated carrots, dehydrated onions, milk powder, 9-grain cereal, beans, and so on.  More recently, I bought an "Instant Pot," which is just about the coolest invention ever.  I pulled out a five-gallon bucket of beans from my dry storage and spent about two weeks making batches of savory beans in the Instant Pot, then freeze drying them.  For the first time in my adult life, I am nearing my ambition of having a one-year supply of food for my family of eight.  And not just calories, but food that is tasty, nutritious, diversified, affordable (depends upon one's priorities, I guess), easy to make in an emergency, shelf-stable for many years, etc.

My next large investment will be in solar panels.  The ROI appears to be improving substantiall year-over-year.

Thanks,

-Smac

ROI was about 7-8 years for me on the solar panels.  I live in Utah and I was grandfathered into the better credits system with Rocky Mountain Power, anyone completing their project in 2017 got the older and better rates.  

Thats cool about the freeze dried foods as well, good for you.  I'm not a major food storage guy from a preparing for the apocalypse perspective, but I do like to have some things in storage.  

As for conservatives, I think this is more a phenomenon of older generation conservatives, hopefully it will continue to change.  This Pew poll is a few years old, but demonstrates some of the angst towards alternative energy by conservatives.  

https://grist.org/politics/pew-poll-clean-energy-still-popular-among-everyone-except-older-conservatives/

 

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

This is why I asked if people agreed with some of what Ammon said, not necessarily everything he said.  

I do mostly agree with one point, when he said "environmentalism is a religion."  In many ways, environmentalism is very much like a religion.  

Here is an environmentalist arguing that same point:

Quote

 

But the philosophical connections between environmentalism and the established church are easier to make. Like Christianity, environmentalism provides its members with a community of likeminded individuals, and gives them a higher moral cause to fight for. Atheism, after all, can be a lonely and confusing business. Environmentalism provides the faithless with an alternative set of guidelines for living a good life. Greenies might not have 10 commandments, but rules about turning the TV off standby, composting and low energy light bulbs must be obeyed.

The negative parallels hold too. Like Christianity, environmentalism can drive people to self-flagellation and self-righteousness. Non-believers are often threatened with dangerous consequences. Failing to subscribe to eco-rules might not send us to hell, but it will bring about an equivalent apocalyptic vision of a world in climate chaos.

I can almost feel environmentalists' teeth gritting as they read this. Environmentalism, they argue, is fundamentally different to religion because it is underpinned by fact rather than faith. But even greenies like George Monbiot have talked about how certain members of the movement stick "religiously" to anti-nuclear protesting despite changes in technology, and questioning climate change has become something of a heresy.

This post is not intended to be a dig at environmentalists. I'm proud of my green beliefs – the fact that they offer me a sense of community and higher purpose does not mean to say they aren't valid or scientifically supported too. Indeed I find it very hard to believe that any movement could sustain itself on facts alone, and I'm not sure it would be so great a movement if it did.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/jun/25/environmentalism-religion

 

 

[jkwilliams]

15 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I haven't.  Not once.

Thanks,

-Smac

When we lived in Orem in the early nineties, our neighborhood was a hotbed of right-wing extremism. I was loudly accosted by a ward member for having a Bennett for Senate sign in my yard. Neighbors would come by and bear their testimonies that Bo Gritz was going to save our country from the New World Order. People got up in testimony meetings to warn us of the evils of the U.N., the Department of the Interior, and the teachers unions. Our Scout committee chairwoman hijacked an Eagle court of honor to tearfully explain the we were in the last days and we needed to stand fast against secret combinations like the Democrats. 

Fun times!

[Calm]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Its a guilt by association straw-man that Ammon is constructing.  When he sees members in the church espousing pro environment policies and ideas, he associates that with people within that community who have expressed concerns about population growth in the past.  Its a bogey man.  See Saturday's Warrior (Zero Population).  

 

Zero population growth is not the same as removing humanity.  It is maintaining as is.  Licensing of children still allows for children.

I agree it is a bogeyman and outside of the song from Saturday's Warror, I have never heard any promotion of zero population, let alone not allowing people to be parents if they so desire, which is what would be required to remove population significantly.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

When we lived in Orem in the early nineties, our neighborhood was a hotbed of right-wing extremism. I was loudly accosted by a ward member for having a Bennett for Senate sign in my yard. Neighbors would come by and bear their testimonies that Bo Gritz was going to save our country from the New World Order. People got up in testimony meetings to warn us of the evils of the U.N., the Department of the Interior, and the teachers unions. Our Scout committee chairwoman hijacked an Eagle court of honor to tearfully explain the we were in the last days and we needed to stand fast against secret combinations like the Democrats. 

Fun times!

We were in Canada in the 90s, but in early 2000 in our small Utah town one stop light out at the highway town (mix of farmers and professors, rich and blue collar or tradesmen ) we had one person like that who was loved, but understood to be out there.  Died awhile back.

I get there can be blowups if you have a popular family go that route, but in .Kansas, California, Utah, .Illinois, Canada, where each ward had their resident right wing and left wing extremists (usually just one, maybe two or three) that type were always viewed by the vast majority of the ward as weird and extreme along with their corresponding liberal extremist which the wards also had.  But even with the liberals, it was government involvement for social programs and getting out of wars, never zero or negative population growth.

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Strange.  I'm very sociopolitically conservative, and very little he says resonates with me.  I think I can safely say the same about most similarly sociopolitically conservative Latter-day Saints of my acquaintance (I live in Utah County).

I guess we all have different experiences in life.

Thanks,

-Smac

All the ones I know and I have a number in my family thought the guy was crazy.

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

There are exceptions to every rule.  I'm not sure how you can contest that the conservative right is much more anti environment.  I would argue that Trump has made things even worse in recent years with his anti science statements on this topic.  

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/20/for-earth-day-heres-how-americans-view-environmental-issues/

The most conservative right people .I know are growing their own food and setting up alternative energy sources so they can live as healthy and cheaply as possible.

They aren't antienvironmentalists, but antibig gov.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

By definition it is not a theology. It is a value system or philosophy. Philosophy is not a religion.

I suppose there is no point getting into this here my bro, but I am interested in what you think the difference is and how clear cut the distinction is

Especially around such issues as the statement "I know the church is true"

I think that philosophy helps us immeasurably to make that a "rational statement" for example.  Without philosophy it is pretty meaningless to those who are secular.

Should we give up on those folks?

I see you as a friend and I am just interested in how you see it- no debates intended!

[nuclearfuels]

11 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

https://www.hjnews.com/news/local/ammon-bundy-claims-lds-church-infiltrated-by-socialists/article_0606cac8-f943-5ff6-a8a6-2827a871d87f.html

I wonder how many conservative members agree with some of what Ammon Bundy says?  Here is just a segment, but the whole article is worth reading.  I suspect these kind of views are quite popular in the church and I’m curious what others on this board think.  

On the other side, he claims that environmentalists, globalists and socialists believe that man has evolved into an intellectually advanced species, and therefore all other species are at a disadvantage. He said the environmentalists believe it’s man’s duty to balance the species and to eliminate much of the human population. He said environmentalism is a religion.

“It is a completely different theology than a Christian theology,” Bundy said.

He said this same group of environmentalists, educated in "government" schools, have infiltrated the lower and middle levels of the LDS Church.

“I know that our church on the lower levels, the mid levels, has been infiltrated by these same people, but not the higher levels,” Bundy said. “I truly believe that those higher levels are honest, good, righteous men who follow the Lord’s guidance and inspiration, and I believe that they will guide us … through these rough times.”

IMHO and in my limited experience, LDS people have a slight tendency to support the local political view (Dem (which is a somewhat diluted socialism, not the Nazi type or the USSR type or the Venezuelan type or the Cuban type but more a "Sure wish we were Europeans" type) or Repub).

Doesn't bother me.

Just makes me wonder: when food storage is needed and 50% at best of LDS memebrs have that storage, will they share with others like some did during Katrina and ala 1 Kings 17:16 or will it be more like the Parable of the 10 Virgins, with the response being, "Sorry. Can't share."

And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.

 

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Good points.  Bernie Sanders won the Democratic nomination in the 2016 Utah caucus, and I'm sure there were some Mormons who supported his candidacy.  I'm not sure the term socialist has the same negative stigma that it may have had in the past for many people.  

Yeah, it's gotten a bit of an image cleanup lately.

[SouthernMo]

I see that much of the far right LDS church culture is dying out. Ezra Taft Benson had some conservative views that many did (and would today) call troubling.  He embraced McCarthyism, and was a strong supporter of the John Birch Society.  His comments about civil rights and Martin Luther King Jr. are appalling to me.

Perhaps many in his generation of apostleship and presidency embraced similar ideas in an effort to follow the example of their leader. But, this seems to be waning. Ammon Bundy and ideas like his in the church are dying out.  He’s attacking a straw man.

[smac97]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

ROI was about 7-8 years for me on the solar panels.  I live in Utah and I was grandfathered into the better credits system with Rocky Mountain Power, anyone completing their project in 2017 got the older and better rates.  

Thats cool about the freeze dried foods as well, good for you.  I'm not a major food storage guy from a preparing for the apocalypse perspective, but I do like to have some things in storage.  

I'm not storing food "for the apocalypse."  I'm thinking more of A) an unexpected and extended period of unemployment, B) an short- or intermediate-term (days or weeks) disruption of food distribution systems (earthquake, widespread social unrest, EMP, etc.), C) the Church has encouraged us to do it, D) I found I did a poor job of "cycling" through canned foods, and E) it just feels nice to know I have it ("food insurance").

Plus there have been a few dozen instances where we have dipped into our food storage for everyday uses.  Freeze-dried ham gets reconstituted for Baked Potato Night.  Freeze-dried Parmesan cheese gets pulled out when we are out of it and don't want to run to the store (or it's a Sunday).  Freeze-dried ice cream or pineapple or mango for road trips or when the cousins come over and need a quick snack.  Freeze-dried chicken gets reconstitutes for chicken salad sandwiches or chicken soup with rice.  Chicken tika masala or Tom Ka Gai soup for road trips.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 20, 2018 by smac97

[SteveO]

8 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Just makes me wonder: when food storage is needed and 50% at best of LDS memebrs have that storage, will they share with others like some did during Katrina and ala 1 Kings 17:16 or will it be more like the Parable of the 10 Virgins, with the response being, "Sorry. Can't share."

And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.

 

That’s fine sharing when someone is in need and I’m doing fine and have something to give.

Problem is, what happens when someone is in need, and I also am in need as well?  I’m going to make sure my family is provided for before anyone else.  The church has been harping on food storage and emergency preparedness for a good solid 20 years.  What good is counsel if you don’t follow it?  

[jkwilliams]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

We were in Canada in the 90s, but in early 2000 in our small Utah town one stop light out at the highway town (mix of farmers and professors, rich and blue collar or tradesmen ) we had one person like that who was loved, but understood to be out there.  Died awhile back.

I get there can be blowups if you have a popular family go that route, but in .Kansas, California, Utah, .Illinois, Canada, where each ward had their resident right wing and left wing extremists (usually just one, maybe two or three) that type were always viewed by the vast majority of the ward as weird and extreme along with their corresponding liberal extremist which the wards also had.  But even with the liberals, it was government involvement for social programs and getting out of wars, never zero or negative population growth.

That ward was definitely an outlier, but it was a cabal of about 5 families, who all just happened to live on my street. 

A friend once said that there is always one nutjob in every ward. When that person moves out, a replacement moves in, and if you don’t see a nutjob in your ward, that means it’s you. 😉

[Jeanne]

After reading the article in the HJ this morning...so glad that I am not a High Priest.😊

[nuclearfuels]

 

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

When we lived in Orem in the early nineties, our neighborhood was a hotbed of right-wing extremism. I was loudly accosted by a ward member for having a Bennett for Senate sign in my yard. Neighbors would come by and bear their testimonies that Bo Gritz was going to save our country from the New World Order. People got up in testimony meetings to warn us of the evils of the U.N., the Department of the Interior, and the teachers unions. Our Scout committee chairwoman hijacked an Eagle court of honor to tearfully explain the we were in the last days and we needed to stand fast against secret combinations like the Democrats. 

Fun times!

Yes, I grew up in Spanish Fork, and I was acquainted with people that had similar views.  

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

After reading the article in the HJ this morning...so glad that I am not a High Priest.😊

Meh. I’m a high priest, so obviously the bar is set pretty low.