NDEs and Visits from the Other Side (U.S. News Article)

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

The title used "Near death" probably as an attention getter, the article itself seems a bit more specific now that I reread it:

"Local nurses in the field, besides Roncevich, have had similar realizations about a phenomenon that has been referred to by different names: end-of-life experiences, death bed visions, death-related sensory experiences and more."

I was thinking of the study they cite:

The patients were interviewed about dreams they had while asleep, visions they had while awake and things they saw or sensed while in the blurry state between sleep and wakefulness that is common during final days and weeks.

Of 63 patients in the analysis, 52 reported a dream or vision – and the dreams typically would be different from those of the general population with their everyday experiences and anxieties.

"As we approach death, dreams increase dramatically in frequency, and the dreams increasing most frequently have to do with the deceased – the loved ones who have passed," said Christopher Kerr, CEO of The Center for Hospice & Palliative Care.

[Calm]

From the 1500's....I wonder where he got the idea from.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascent_of_the_Blessed

[Calm]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

I was thinking of the study they cite:

The patients were interviewed about dreams they had while asleep, visions they had while awake and things they saw or sensed while in the blurry state between sleep and wakefulness that is common during final days and weeks.

Of 63 patients in the analysis, 52 reported a dream or vision – and the dreams typically would be different from those of the general population with their everyday experiences and anxieties.

"As we approach death, dreams increase dramatically in frequency, and the dreams increasing most frequently have to do with the deceased – the loved ones who have passed," said Christopher Kerr, CEO of The Center for Hospice & Palliative Care.

Yes.  However, back to the evolutionary discussion, these are in palliative care and thus unlikely to reproduce as would be the same for most experiencing clinical death in the past.  I don't see anyway in the past for there to be clinical death survivors, but if it is the same attribute causing it as occurs in those in end of life scenarios, I can see reasoning that allows the attribute to be genetically passed on.  If one includes every type of similar experience (in my celestial ascents class, similarities to modern stories of NDE were studied), an even larger population base occurs.

Besides prestige, collateral benefit could be that those dying experiencing these kinds of dreams/visions (it sounds like it is a significant majority) gives comfort to the living and they are more likely to work harder at surviving as well as bring more children into the world because they have a greater hope based on parents or grandparents sharing these stories.  If one's nearest and dearest (the type you visit while they are dying) are not the type to have these joyful experiences, one might be more prone to not believe in an afterlife or think of it in negative terms and therefore be less likely to bring children into the world if it is a struggle for oneself.

[Nofear]

I think that many (not all) NDE's cannot simply be dismissed as fanciful imaginations of a hypoxic brain. As a believing latter-day saint and a physicist, I subscribe to the materialism of our fully grown, adult spirit bodies. As such, there is one question that I think can help discern vision, from dream, from material experience. That question is, “What were you wearing?”

Unfortunately, pretty much all of the accounts I've read neglect noting on this aspect of their experience. Those that (in my imperfect memory) do usually mention contempory/last worn clothing. That would suggest to me a more vision-like experience than an actual, in-spirit-body, encounter with the spirit world. Indeed, I've somewhat come to the conclusion that most NDE's are probably a simulated and transient reality to give comfort to the near dead.

Does that conclusion, if even only somewhat accurate, negate the “reality” of the importance the experience has in their lives. Many do not share their experiences for fear of it being belittled as unbelievable fancy or some simple organic phenomena. I would/will never do that to someone.

[strappinglad]

I have found it interesting that during NDEs the experiencer can ' see ' others and recognize some of them , but rarely says anything about how they themselves looked. A few say that they can see all around like 360 degree vision. One would think that at least some would look down at themselves and see what they looked like. Were they a  " body " or a fuzzy cloud or what? If I am wrong about this please direct me to accounts to the contrary.

[Duncan]

14 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That was an interesting read. Thank you for posting it. The suggestion from the article is that these dreams and visions may be the brain's mechanism for comforting the dying and reducing the fear of death, which makes sense. But who knows? 

I am aware of several such events in my family.

My aunt (my mother's younger sister) died of cardiomyopathy when she was 32, six months after giving birth to her seventh child. Late one night, she got out of bed and went to the closet to put on a coat. My uncle got up and tried to get her to go back to bed, but she kept saying, "You don't understand. I have to go. It's time for me to go." She collapsed and died right there.

When my grandmother died (also of cardiomyopathy), my mother was at her side. She said that my grandmother had been sleeping off and on and was very weak. Suddenly, she opened her eyes, and according to my mom, she had a look of absolute joy on her face. Although she was lying in bed, she began moving her arms and legs as if she were walking forward, and then she passed away.

When my brothers Danny and Ross were killed, my dad was lying in bed that night, distraught and unable to sleep. He said my brothers entered the bedroom, and they were smiling and happy, almost joking. Then Danny got a more serious look on his face and told my dad not to worry, that they were fine. And then they left.

I'm not saying these are genuine visions or just the brain coping with death, but they certainly are fascinating and comforting. No matter what happens, it's nice to think I may have those kinds of dreams or visions when I approach death.

I don't know if it's doctrine but I tend to think people from the other side come and get someone who is dying. In our family history there are two experiences where it was like that was what was  happening. None were members of the Church. One example was my Mum's uncle Stanley and Uncle Roy. Both signed up right when WW1 got started, they were part of the first 30,000 Canadians to go over. The next year their Mother was in an upstairs bedroom doing whatever and then all of sudden she felt Stanley's presence in the room with her and so she wasn't too surprised when they got a notification a few days later that he was killed, it was like he was coming to say goodbye😢

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I don't believe that particular medium actually called up the spirit of Samuel the prophet. The LDS story of all those evil spirits cast down to vex the mortals who did gain bodies provides a pretty good possibility of just what was called up..........

Perhaps, but bear in mind several things which give it the touch of authenticity:  The Medium of En-Dor does not know that her client is Saul until she sees Samuel (note her fear).  And a comment in the New Jerusalem Bible is apropos:  "The narrator seems to share the popular belief in ghosts....* * * the incident is presented as a genuine recalling of Samuel's spirit (hence the woman's fear) to foretell the future," and the story illustrates "the rejection of Saul and his replacement by David."  Additionally, the use of 'elohim to describe someone who is dead certainly fits a dead prophet, who is presumably destined for celestial glory.

[Calm]

I have a relative whose grandfather had died quite young while his wife lived to her 90s, I believe.  She was very fearful of dying because she was afraid her husband would not recognize her (code for not want her anymore, I am guessing; never met her myself) 60 or more years later.  Two nights before she died, he visited her, as young as always and in the clothes he used to wear.  After months, Maybe years of dreading death, she died peacefully, secure in the knowledge he was right there waiting, knowing full well what he was getting.

Dream, delusion, or vision, I am grateful that so many have them and they are comforts for the left behind.

And I really like the idea that while there are those sad to release their loved ones, that there are many more eagerly awaiting them knowing there will be no more parting.  That is certainly one belief I am choosing to believe.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Calm

[strappinglad]

I find it hard to think that the medium had the power to call up Samuel. If Samuel came at this time to deliver the message, fine. That Samuel was forced to come is problematic. The OT often condemns the use of ' familiar spirits ' so maybe there is more to it.

[Garden Girl]

Whenever this topic comes up here, I always cite one of my favorite books... "Beyond Death's Door"... (1993) by Prof Brent L. Top and his wife, Wendy...  of BYU Provo.  The book addresses the study by the Tops of numerous NON-LDS near death experiences in light of the restored gospel... they specifically targeted non-LDS to see how closely those experiences correspond to or add to LDS understanding of death... they state: "We were amazed at the similarities and consistencies between near-death accounts and the doctrines of the restored gospel."

This is a terrific book... thoughtful, positive, and well researched with widespread citations and footnotes as they conducted their study.  

GG

 

[Stargazer]

20 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

That was an interesting read. Thank you for posting it. The suggestion from the article is that these dreams and visions may be the brain's mechanism for comforting the dying and reducing the fear of death, which makes sense. But who knows? 

I am aware of several such events in my family.

My aunt (my mother's younger sister) died of cardiomyopathy when she was 32, six months after giving birth to her seventh child. Late one night, she got out of bed and went to the closet to put on a coat. My uncle got up and tried to get her to go back to bed, but she kept saying, "You don't understand. I have to go. It's time for me to go." She collapsed and died right there.

When my grandmother died (also of cardiomyopathy), my mother was at her side. She said that my grandmother had been sleeping off and on and was very weak. Suddenly, she opened her eyes, and according to my mom, she had a look of absolute joy on her face. Although she was lying in bed, she began moving her arms and legs as if she were walking forward, and then she passed away.

When my brothers Danny and Ross were killed, my dad was lying in bed that night, distraught and unable to sleep. He said my brothers entered the bedroom, and they were smiling and happy, almost joking. Then Danny got a more serious look on his face and told my dad not to worry, that they were fine. And then they left.

I'm not saying these are genuine visions or just the brain coping with death, but they certainly are fascinating and comforting. No matter what happens, it's nice to think I may have those kinds of dreams or visions when I approach death.

I agree that these things are fascinating and comforting.

But when this is called "...the brain's mechanism for comforting the dying and reducing the fear of death" I must ask the question: where did this come from?  It can't have an evolutionary basis.  It's not a characteristic that would enhance survival, or even the individual's ability to influence the survival of descendants or near relatives.  

I have to conclude that since there's no evolutionary advantage to it, it must be there by intentional design.  

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hmmmmmm......how many folks with positive NDE would have to survive in order to pass it on genetically?

 

12 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Again, the article is speaking of dreams and visions toward the end of life, not necessarily the experience of NDE when the person is physically dead. That’s what I’m talking about. 

 

I'm trying to give this as much positive spin as I can when I say that perhaps the ability to have an NDE is genetically linked with something else that actually does bring an enhanced survival value, and thus the NDE comes along for the ride.  But if that were the case, NDEs would run in families.  I wonder if they do?

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, CA Steve said:

This is really a funny turn in the discussion. They are called NDEs for a reason because people survive them. If they didn't we would call them ADE (actual death experience) or as it has come to be known, death.

Uh, earth to Steve, Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) occur near death, and some of the people who describe them actually die shortly afterwards.  An ADF would occur only to someone who is in the Spirit World.  Except for the cases where recently deceased persons have visited relatives who didn't yet know they were dead, these do occur as well, and to the living.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Stargazer

[CA Steve]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Uh, earth to Steve, Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) occur near death, and some of the people who describe them actually die shortly afterwards.  An ADF would occur only to someone who is in the Spirit World.  Except for the cases where recently deceased persons have visited relatives who didn't yet know they were dead, these do occur as well, and to the living.

Then that would be an NDE followed by an ADE .

As far as it being an evolutionary strategy,  the person experiencing it does not have to procreate after having such an experience for it to enhance the chances of his genes getting passed on.  The old guy in the tribe who claims to communicate with the tribe's ancestors can have a higher prestige within the tribe, a factor that extends to his own offspring who are seen as more desirable mates because they are related to the tribe's priest or shaman.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2018 by CA Steve

[strappinglad]

I love all the acronyms , but personally I wonder what the Order of the British Empire has to do with the topic.

[Jeanne]

12 hours ago, Duncan said:

I don't know if it's doctrine but I tend to think people from the other side come and get someone who is dying. In our family history there are two experiences where it was like that was what was  happening. None were members of the Church. One example was my Mum's uncle Stanley and Uncle Roy. Both signed up right when WW1 got started, they were part of the first 30,000 Canadians to go over. The next year their Mother was in an upstairs bedroom doing whatever and then all of sudden she felt Stanley's presence in the room with her and so she wasn't too surprised when they got a notification a few days later that he was killed, it was like he was coming to say goodbye😢

I really believe this...though others might question my sanity...but they would have to also question the sanity of my children.  But while my husband was taking his last breaths..the hospital door of his room ...opened and shut..with no one coming in...I tend to think that it was my mother who died 3 months earlier might have been to comfort the both of us.

[Eek!]

As has been noted, people who have had a near-death experience often exhibit significantly changed views and behaviors, focusing on love and how we treat one another, and losing interest in materialism and dogma.   I wonder why.

"Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject." - Joseph Smith

Hmmm.  Maybe that has something to do with it.  If so, perhaps the rest of us could learn a thing or two from those who have gazed into heaven for five minutes. 

P.M.H. Atwater experienced three NDE's and then began investigating the subject extensively, interviewing something like four thousand people in the course of her research.  She is not LDS.  Here she shares her findings, some of which will not be foreign to Mormons (skip to 1:47 if you're in a hurry):

Imo either Joseph Smith got really lucky with some of the concepts he taught, or at some point he gazed into that same heaven for five minutes.

Researcher Kenneth Ring is not himself an NDEer, but he learned a thing or two from them:

My point being, for those of us who are not NDEers, these experiences can still be extremely powerful teachers, despite the fact that they do not come with any religious authority's stamp of approval. 

Also, note that while there is a healthy mix of believers and skeptics among those who have not had an NDE, there is no such healthy mix among those who have.  I am not aware of a single instance in which an NDEer has dismissed his or her experience as the psychochemical spasms of a dying brain. 

Edited July 14, 2018 by Eek!

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Then that would be an NDE followed by an ADE .

As far as it being an evolutionary strategy,  the person experiencing it does not have to procreate after having such an experience for it to enhance the chances of his genes getting passed on.  The old guy in the tribe who claims to communicate with the tribe's ancestors can have a higher prestige within the tribe, a factor that extends to his own offspring who are seen as more desirable mates because they are related to the tribe's priest or shaman.

I could come up with speculations like this without much effort.  And I posted something similar to this earlier.  You're "grasping at straws".  An old guy can make all the claims he wants, but having an NDE that he survives isn't going to be common enough to make a difference.  And the thing is, the tribal shaman doesn't need to have NDEs or have ancestors who had NDEs in order to increase his reproductive success.  All he needs to do is have a hallucination and see his spirit animal.  My own Indian ancestors had methods for inducing hallucinations in the quest for spiritual insight -- and it didn't involve undergoing NDEs.  In fact, I am descended from a man who gained his leadership in the tribe from such deeds as killing a bear using a knife and bow and arrow.  That got him plenty of reproductive success.

[Glenn101]

17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Perhaps, but bear in mind several things which give it the touch of authenticity:  The Medium of En-Dor does not know that her client is Saul until she sees Samuel (note her fear).  And a comment in the New Jerusalem Bible is apropos:  "The narrator seems to share the popular belief in ghosts....* * * the incident is presented as a genuine recalling of Samuel's spirit (hence the woman's fear) to foretell the future," and the story illustrates "the rejection of Saul and his replacement by David."  Additionally, the use of 'elohim to describe someone who is dead certainly fits a dead prophet, who is presumably destined for celestial glory.

The "Witch of En-Dor" did not know who her client was at first, but the Satan and his minions would almost surely have known. What I am wondering is how the narrative got to us, as this was supposedly done on the sly by Saul.

Glenn

[carbon dioxide]

18 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I have found it interesting that during NDEs the experiencer can ' see ' others and recognize some of them , but rarely says anything about how they themselves looked. A few say that they can see all around like 360 degree vision. One would think that at least some would look down at themselves and see what they looked like. Were they a  " body " or a fuzzy cloud or what? If I am wrong about this please direct me to accounts to the contrary.

Unless there was a spiritual mirror around to see their reflection, why would they see themselves.  Plus in such an experience, the last thing they would be focusing on is their own appearance but everything they are seeing around them.

[carbon dioxide]

I sort of view those who universally dismiss NDE as having the same sort of rational as found in the JST version of Psalms 14:1

 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no man that hath seen God. Because he showeth himself not unto us, therefore there is no God. Behold, they are corrupt; they have done abominable works, and none of them doeth good."

People will dismiss things out there because they have not personally experienced it.  So since Jack has not experienced a NDE,  he has reason to dismiss the NDE of Steve.  In the end, I don't believe NDE are given to convince others of their reality though many may believe on their words.  The NDE is for the person who experiences them.  Often it is a life changing event.  There are not "dreams" nor can be dismissed as being such.  All these people had dreamed thousands of times over their lives and they know the difference between a regular dream and the NDE.  If I ever have a NDE, I will know the difference.  All my dreams are stupid and I have a difficult time remembering them even a few minutes after I wake up. 

Edited July 14, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

The "Witch of En-Dor" did not know who her client was at first, but the Satan and his minions would almost surely have known. What I am wondering is how the narrative got to us, as this was supposedly done on the sly by Saul.   ....................

Joseph Smith is often viewed as being in thrall to Satan, but that is the same copout used against Jesus, whose reply is worth considering:  "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" (Matt 12:26)

As for all those private events which find their way into Scripture, how would we know the source?  The Holy Spirit is ultimately responsible for such things, no?  There is nothing secret which shall not be made known (Lk 8:17 , 12:2).

Edited July 15, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Jeanne]

On 7/13/2018 at 1:20 PM, Tacenda said:

I'm so sorry for all of your losses, so difficult to go through I'm sure. Glad you have these stories to refer to when you're missing your family members. I can't imagine what you've gone through. 

When my mom was going down hill after my dad died of a sudden heart attack, she had Alz/Dementia and in a care center. The nurse told me her spirit was already leaving her body despite her heart still beating. I remember being a little stumped as to how that could be. But what a relief that my mom would hopefully rid her body of the Alzheimer's disease and then gain a new body or whatever happens that might give her relief and then the hope of being with my mom the way she was before the disease.

And then a couple of years ago my FIL was dying of heart failure and I happened to have just had a reading from my niece who is a Medium. She mentioned my FIL right off the bat and said he was with her and sent a message for my husband and his family. I thought that strange since he was still alive, how could he deliver that message to my niece? But then I remembered my mom and how the nurse said she was already passing away and her spirit moving on before her death. 

I love to watch NDE's and Medium stories, especially since my faith in God and the afterlife has taken a toll. 

Jk...I second this...many hugs to all those who have had such great losses..(pretty much all of us)...may we all find comfort in what ever way we can....and in spirit..whatever way we understand.

[Nofear]

Of all things, a quote involving clothing cited in Bro. Peterson's blog (refer to link for quote citation)

“I then semi-floated on, noticing I was wearing clothing of an unusual material that I could not recognize.  It was at once soft, but very durable.  The whiteness was like no earthly whiteness I know.”

I could see something like that adorning the spirit body during the individual's mortal sojourn. Maybe not though. Maybe, yes.  The tunnel is an item suggesting the potential non-admissability of the clothing clue.

The account is cited in the context of a tunnel, a reasonably common feature of NDE experiences. But, the plurality of them makes them kind of weird for a materially present, spatially extant, spirit matter feature just scattered throughout the cosmos wherever they are handy. To me, it is more plausible they are a simulated reality to help the dying mortal mind get ready for the transition to the actual-honest-to-goodness-real-tactile-material spirit realm. And it may be that not everybody “needs” the softer transition and so, while common, tunnels are not a universal feature.

[pogi]

On 7/13/2018 at 5:17 PM, Calm said:

I agree... which is why I added “technically”.

I found this definition of NDE to be useful in discussing historic accounts of NDEs:  

“an unusual experience taking place on the brink of death and recounted by a person after recovery, typically an out-of-body experience or a vision of a tunnel of light.”

It makes sense for scientific studies to have precise requirements of deprivation of oxygen, but in speaking of the global experience which is often more about what happens than how it happens, limiting it to a subset of those who experience that type of vision/dream/whatever it is seems counterproductive to me.

You are right, it might be counterproductive to limit these experiences to deprivation of oxygen.  That is typically the scientific explanation that people give for them however.  The fact that they happen with or without oxygen deprivation, and with varying conditions, makes the mechanism even more inexplicable.  If the evolutionary benefit of NDE's is to reduced stress and improve chances of living, then why are not all NDE's positive experiences?  We only talk about the peaceful ones, but it seems that many are very distressing to people, even traumatic.  And why are they all death related with visions of heaven/hell, angels/demons, light/darkness, positive or negative life reviews, etc.  It seems that stress reduction could be achieved equally well with non-death related visions.  Why are not some NDE's visions of living in the Big rock candy mountain, or other calm inducing visions?  The fact that they are related to death and life-reviews, tunnels of light, etc. doesn't seem to have any evolutionary benefit that I can think of.