jkwilliams Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, pogi said: Revival from NDE's require medical intervention. NDE's only happen when organ systems start shutting down, eventually leading to 02 deprivation when breathing eventually stops and the heart stops beating. People are not evolved to survive NDE's, that is purely an intervention and miracle of modern medicine, which hasn't been around long enough to offer any evolutionary drive. People didn't really come back from the dead before modern medicine, except in the Bible. People don’t always die following these visions and dreams. It’s not always a death and revival.
CA Steve Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 31 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: How would that work? It doesn't seem like it offers and selection pressure. Armchair anthropologist here. It is entirely plausible that somewhere in our long past those members of a group who had such visions were held in higher esteem and were more sought after as mates.
jkwilliams Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 Just now, Calm said: Just put it in your signature. 🤣 No kidding.
Calm Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, pogi said: Revival from NDE's require medical intervention. NDE's only happen when organ systems start shutting down, eventually leading to 02 deprivation when breathing eventually stops and the heart stops beating. People are not evolved to survive NDE's, that is purely an intervention and miracle of modern medicine, which hasn't been around long enough to offer any evolutionary drive. People didn't really come back from the dead before modern medicine, except in the Bible. Not all people equate NDE with medical intervention to reverse death, see Kevin’s post on Alma’s example for the example. Close to death can trigger the same experience apparently. I have heard people describe similar experiences when having high fevers. It may be more accurate to call them out of body experiences, but I see a lot of overlap. Edited July 13, 2018 by Calm
Calm Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 Quote NDEs have been recorded since ancient times.[31] In the 19th century a few studies moved beyond individual cases - one privately done by the Mormons and one in Switzerland. Up to 2005, 95% of world cultures are known to have made some mention of NDEs.[31] From Wikipedia
pogi Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: People don’t always die following these visions and dreams. It’s not always a death and revival. Whether they are dead or not, people didn't survive hypoxemia for very long before modern medical intervention. Your lungs and heart are usually the very last organs to shut down in order to preserve oxygen levels. If you have hypoxemia and are not dead yet, you will be dead fairly shortly without oxygen or other medical treatment. Your organs will all start shutting down without proper oxygen levels. Edited July 13, 2018 by pogi
Bernard Gui Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Calm said: I was thinking how an attribute that relates to an experience happening shortly before death would hardly be able to have a chance to be passed on, but I suppose it might actually increase chance of survival to feel less stress when going into shock or whatever causes the NDE experience (if solely biological). And thus those who survive in part because of less stress, more hope pass on this attribute while those who don't experience it are more likely to die because their body overreacts to the medical emergency or feel less motivated to work towards recovery and thus have less chances to pass on the attribute. add-on: looks like Bernard had the same first reaction. It is also possible that the attribute that increases the chance of NDE has other effects that affect survival and it may be those that affected evolution. It is unfortunate we can't tell if someone is having an NDE without them telling to see if it coorelates to surviving surgery or life threatening medical emergencies. Otherwise, we could see if death rates go down for those with NDE or not. Hmmmmmm......how many folks with positive NDE would have to survive in order to pass it on genetically? 1
jkwilliams Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 Just now, pogi said: Whether they are dead or not, people didn't survive hypoxemia before modern medical intervention. Your lungs and heart are usually the very last organs to shut down in order to preserve oxygen levels. If you have hypoxemia and are not dead yet, you will be dead fairly shortly without oxygen or other medical treatment. Your organs will all start shutting down without proper oxygen levels. According to the article these experiences often happen well before death is imminent. I think maybe you’re defining this more narrowly than I am.
Calm Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) Have no clue about over all accuracy of this site, but well known historical anecdotes shouldn’t be too problematic. https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/ndes-have-been-known-throughout-history.html http://the-formula.org/historical-cross-cultural-near-death-experiences/ Edited July 13, 2018 by Calm
jkwilliams Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 Just now, Bernard Gui said: Hmmmmmm......how many folks with positive NDE would have to survive in order to pass it on genetically? Again, the article is speaking of dreams and visions toward the end of life, not necessarily the experience of NDE when the person is physically dead. That’s what I’m talking about.
pogi Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: According to the article these experiences often happen well before death is imminent. I think maybe you’re defining this more narrowly than I am. Then these occurrences are probably not due to oxygen deprivation (which is typically the explanation of NDE's), but are hallucinations or dreams from other causes.
CA Steve Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: According to the article these experiences often happen well before death is imminent. I think maybe you’re defining this more narrowly than I am. This is really a funny turn in the discussion. They are called NDEs for a reason because people survive them. If they didn't we would call them ADE (actual death experience) or as it has come to be known, death. Edited July 13, 2018 by CA Steve
pogi Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, Calm said: Have no clue about over all accuracy of this site, but well known historical anecdotes shouldn’t be too problematic. https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/ndes-have-been-known-throughout-history.html The question is, how many of those people in history actually survived long enough to pass on the beneficial genes?
Calm Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Hmmmmmm......how many folks with positive NDE would have to survive in order to pass it on genetically? Only one technically speaking.
CA Steve Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 Just now, pogi said: The question is, how many of those people in history actually survived long enough to pass on the beneficial genes? I don't know the numbers, but I am guessing it is higher than those who did not survive.
pogi Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, CA Steve said: I don't know the numbers, but I am guessing it is higher than those who did not survive. I don't think so. If a person is close enough to death to be experiencing NDE's, they are not likely of child bearing/rearing age. It is usually elderly people at the end of their life who have them. The young people who have them today, usually only survive through modern medical intervention. Edited July 13, 2018 by pogi
strappinglad Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 Someone can do a study about NDE experiencers and their offspring to see if NDEs run in the family. In other words , is there a gene variation to pass on after one experience ? Would that mean that the experience itself caused a genetic mutation ? I see a Nobel prize in the future. 1
CA Steve Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) By the way, another comment on how NDE's might be a survival trait enhanced by natural selection. Even if the person surviving the experience is not able to procreate himself or herself, in a society or group of people where such experiences are valued, the prestige of the immediate family members is also enhanced, so while the newly crowned shaman may not be able to have kids, marrying his son or daughter is a step up for some. So the gene gets passed on anyways. Edited July 13, 2018 by CA Steve 1
CA Steve Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 (edited) deleted duplicate Edited July 13, 2018 by CA Steve
pogi Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 8 minutes ago, Calm said: Only one technically speaking. True, but evolutionary selection of genes over millions of years requires more.
Calm Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 1 minute ago, pogi said: True, but evolutionary selection of genes over millions of years requires more. I agree... which is why I added “technically”. I found this definition of NDE to be useful in discussing historic accounts of NDEs: “an unusual experience taking place on the brink of death and recounted by a person after recovery, typically an out-of-body experience or a vision of a tunnel of light.” It makes sense for scientific studies to have precise requirements of deprivation of oxygen, but in speaking of the global experience which is often more about what happens than how it happens, limiting it to a subset of those who experience that type of vision/dream/whatever it is seems counterproductive to me.
clarkgoble Posted July 13, 2018 Posted July 13, 2018 1 hour ago, CA Steve said: Armchair anthropologist here. It is entirely plausible that somewhere in our long past those members of a group who had such visions were held in higher esteem and were more sought after as mates. Right but I'm here distinguishing between being visionary from having NDEs - although perhaps you're suggesting one entails the other. I'm not sure of evidence for that. 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: See Calm’s post above. I think the problem is people are defining NDEs in different ways. The way I, and a few others, were thinking of them was when one was technically dead but ones heart is restarted artificially. The technology to do that is relatively recent so there wasn't any selection pressure for a brain comforting people in this state to improve survival. I gather others, presumably yourself included, are including other forms of near death although it'd be helpful to clarify what kind. Drowning might be possible, but again I think the technology of mouth to moth resuscitation is rather recent. Now if we're just talking about people close to death due to viruses or the like maybe there'd be selection process if calmness does allow the immune system to improve survival. However it's not clear why that'd apply to heart stoppages or the like.
jkwilliams Posted July 14, 2018 Posted July 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Right but I'm here distinguishing between being visionary from having NDEs - although perhaps you're suggesting one entails the other. I'm not sure of evidence for that. I think the problem is people are defining NDEs in different ways. The way I, and a few others, were thinking of them was when one was technically dead but ones heart is restarted artificially. The technology to do that is relatively recent so there wasn't any selection pressure for a brain comforting people in this state to improve survival. I gather others, presumably yourself included, are including other forms of near death although it'd be helpful to clarify what kind. Drowning might be possible, but again I think the technology of mouth to moth resuscitation is rather recent. Now if we're just talking about people close to death due to viruses or the like maybe there'd be selection process if calmness does allow the immune system to improve survival. However it's not clear why that'd apply to heart stoppages or the like. I’m just going by what the article was talking about.
Calm Posted July 14, 2018 Posted July 14, 2018 Moody was the first to coin NDE and it appears from others' comments he did not restrict it to the technically dead definition (I read him a couple of decades ago, so don't trust my memory). Most of the stuff I read about it where people are sharing their experiences is more casual usage.
Calm Posted July 14, 2018 Posted July 14, 2018 9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I’m just going by what the article was talking about. The title used "Near death" probably as an attention getter, the article itself seems a bit more specific now that I reread it: "Local nurses in the field, besides Roncevich, have had similar realizations about a phenomenon that has been referred to by different names: end-of-life experiences, death bed visions, death-related sensory experiences and more."
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