theplains Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 Today's devotional by pastor Charles Price (on the topic of the Sheep and the Goats parable - Matthew 25:32) says, "There is a day of judgment coming, but it will not be an exam on the finer details of theology. Our judgment will be based on our works and particularly our works towards people. Our good works are not the cause of salvation, but the effect. Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable consequence of a life changed by Christ." In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit salvation or are good works the evidence of salvation? Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does salvation (the cause) produce good works (the effect) or do good works (the cause) produces salvation (the effect)? Also, is the gift of eternal life (the effect) earned or granted freely by faith in Christ (the cause)? Going back a few months, do you recall earning a Christmas gift through your own efforts or did the giver (even a stranger) give it to you without anything you had done? Thanks, Jim
RevTestament Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 17 minutes ago, theplains said: Today's devotional by pastor Charles Price (on the topic of the Sheep and the Goats parable - Matthew 25:32) says, "There is a day of judgment coming, but it will not be an exam on the finer details of theology. Our judgment will be based on our works and particularly our works towards people. Our good works are not the cause of salvation, but the effect. Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable consequence of a life changed by Christ." In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit salvation or are good works the evidence of salvation? Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does salvation (the cause) produce good works (the effect) or do good works (the cause) produces salvation (the effect)? Also, is the gift of eternal life (the effect) earned or granted freely by faith in Christ (the cause)? Going back a few months, do you recall earning a Christmas gift through your own efforts or did the giver (even a stranger) give it to you without anything you had done? Thanks, Jim I really dislike this false gospel analysis. I think Jesus about sums it up. "If you love me, feed my sheep." If you don't feed His sheep, He may conclude you do not love Him, but simply give Him lip service. So will He save a recalcitrant servant? or does He love the faithful servant? He initially forgave both out of the goodness of His grace, but one does not stay true. Jesus gives several parables about this. Remember the servant who hid the one coin His master gave him? 1
Storm Rider Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 52 minutes ago, theplains said: Today's devotional by pastor Charles Price (on the topic of the Sheep and the Goats parable - Matthew 25:32) says, "There is a day of judgment coming, but it will not be an exam on the finer details of theology. Our judgment will be based on our works and particularly our works towards people. Our good works are not the cause of salvation, but the effect. Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable consequence of a life changed by Christ." In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit salvation or are good works the evidence of salvation? Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does salvation (the cause) produce good works (the effect) or do good works (the cause) produces salvation (the effect)? Also, is the gift of eternal life (the effect) earned or granted freely by faith in Christ (the cause)? Going back a few months, do you recall earning a Christmas gift through your own efforts or did the giver (even a stranger) give it to you without anything you had done? Thanks, Jim Hello Jim, I have always thought that works have merit in God's kingdom i.e. in my Father's house are many mansions and what kingdom and/or level within each kingdom one has. However, our works have no merit in our salvation. Our good works are an evidence of our faith in Jesus Christ and our Father's plan for us. Faith is active; its presence demands action in the life of the believer. Eternal life - life in the Celestial Kingdom - is the result of faith in Jesus Christ and a willingness to fulfill his teachings.
JLHPROF Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 1 hour ago, theplains said: In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit salvation or are good works the evidence of salvation? Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does salvation (the cause) produce good works (the effect) or do good works (the cause) produces salvation (the effect)? And as with most things in life, the answer is both. Depending on the definition of salvation being used. 2
Jane_Doe Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, theplains said: Today's devotional by pastor Charles Price (on the topic of the Sheep and the Goats parable - Matthew 25:32) says, "There is a day of judgment coming, but it will not be an exam on the finer details of theology. Our judgment will be based on our works and particularly our works towards people. Our good works are not the cause of salvation, but the effect. Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable consequence of a life changed by Christ." In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit salvation or are good works the evidence of salvation? Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does salvation (the cause) produce good works (the effect) or do good works (the cause) produces salvation (the effect)? Also, is the gift of eternal life (the effect) earned or granted freely by faith in Christ (the cause)? Going back a few months, do you recall earning a Christmas gift through your own efforts or did the giver (even a stranger) give it to you without anything you had done? Thanks, Jim A gift requires you to open it and accept it. LDS believe this. We ACCEPT Christ's gift of faith. We ACCEPT the opportunity to repent. We ACCEPT the opportunity to be baptized. Getting dunked without Christ or faith in Him is useless. But so is a gift you refuse to accept. God will force no man to heaven. Edited April 28, 2018 by Jane_Doe
MormonMason Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 (edited) As far as I understood it, salvation is by grace through faith but exaltation is among the rewards for deeds. All who are saved go to heaven but to which kingdom in heaven one goes is determined by what one does. At least that is how I always understood it. James the brother of Jesus saw the relationship of faith and deeds as a cooperative synergy. They work together. That does not seem to fit either the merit or evidence analogies. Overall I think the whole of scripture taken together would agree with that. Somebody I know likes to talk a lot about a justification/salvation triangle composed of grace as the base with faith and works as the other sides of the triangle. He often analogizes it on the fire triangle of oxygen, heat and fuel. He says that without any side of the triangle fire cannot exist and in like manner justification before God. Edited April 28, 2018 by MormonMason
Avatar4321 Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 Read the Book of Mormon. You will quickly realize we cannot work our way to heaven but need a Savior 2
JAHS Posted April 28, 2018 Posted April 28, 2018 The concept of works being involved in our salvation is hard to understand when comparing Biblical scriptures, especially if they are taken out of context. Consider the following: Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works." Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight." Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." compared to: James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven." It appears that faith, grace and works are all required for our salvation. Notice that Jesus said "If thou wilt be perfect". More important than what we do in this life, is who we have become because of what we have done and believed in. LDS Apostle Dallin H. Oaks said: "From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts — what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become." (Dallin H. Oaks, “The Challenge to Become,” New Era, Aug. 2002, 12) Our good works are what make us become the kind of person that can dwell with God in heaven. Our own good works alone do not merit salvation. Our good works are not evidence of our salvation because salvation comes after we leave this life. Matthew 10:22 - "he that endureth to the end shall be saved". If we have to endure to the end to be saved then we can't be saved until this life is over. 3
Atheist Mormon Posted April 29, 2018 Posted April 29, 2018 7 hours ago, theplains said: Today's devotional by pastor Charles Price (on the topic of the Sheep and the Goats parable - Matthew 25:32) says, "There is a day of judgment coming, but it will not be an exam on the finer details of theology. Our judgment will be based on our works and particularly our works towards people. Our good works are not the cause of salvation, but the effect. Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable consequence of a life changed by Christ." In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit salvation or are good works the evidence of salvation? Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does salvation (the cause) produce good works (the effect) or do good works (the cause) produces salvation (the effect)? Also, is the gift of eternal life (the effect) earned or granted freely by faith in Christ (the cause)? Going back a few months, do you recall earning a Christmas gift through your own efforts or did the giver (even a stranger) give it to you without anything you had done? Thanks, Jim I find this tactics so laughable.If that is a LDS Theology, they got the right one (which I was a member before I became atheist). What do Christians do? Nothing? Hide the "I don't have to do anything, Christ will save me"? Hardly..... The sad thing is they actually succeed to get a raise out of LDS to respond this absurd accusation...... 2
Glenn101 Posted April 29, 2018 Posted April 29, 2018 7 hours ago, theplains said: Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable consequence of a life changed by Christ However there are many really good people, agnostic, atheist, and people of other religions who do not believe in Christ but still produce "good works." Glenn
Robert F. Smith Posted April 29, 2018 Posted April 29, 2018 7 hours ago, theplains said: Today's devotional by pastor Charles Price (on the topic of the Sheep and the Goats parable - Matthew 25:32) says, "There is a day of judgment coming, but it will not be an exam on the finer details of theology. Our judgment will be based on our works and particularly our works towards people. Our good works are not the cause of salvation, but the effect. Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable consequence of a life changed by Christ." In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit salvation or are good works the evidence of salvation? Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does salvation (the cause) produce good works (the effect) or do good works (the cause) produces salvation (the effect)? Also, is the gift of eternal life (the effect) earned or granted freely by faith in Christ (the cause)? Going back a few months, do you recall earning a Christmas gift through your own efforts or did the giver (even a stranger) give it to you without anything you had done?......... Since Mormonism differentiates eternal life (which everyone receives) from exaltation, the question may be more involved than just a matter of faith & works -- depending on whether holy ordinances or sacraments are considered "works." What is clear is that faith & works always go together in tandem -- you can't have one without the other. However, since one can do the right thing for the wrong reason, faith must be primary. So good works may or may not be "evidence of salvation," as you put it, Jim. The next question is whether faith is a gift which God chooses to give to some and not to others. Is grace a free and unearned gift? Judaism asserts that grace is free, and that one cannot earn the prize of salvation. Paradoxically, however, that does not free one from the responsibility of following the commandments and doing good works.
MormonMason Posted April 29, 2018 Posted April 29, 2018 3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Since Mormonism differentiates eternal life (which everyone receives) from exaltation, the question may be more involved than just a matter of faith & works -- depending on whether holy ordinances or sacraments are considered "works." What is clear is that faith & works always go together in tandem -- you can't have one without the other. However, since one can do the right thing for the wrong reason, faith must be primary. So good works may or may not be "evidence of salvation," as you put it, Jim. The next question is whether faith is a gift which God chooses to give to some and not to others. Is grace a free and unearned gift? Judaism asserts that grace is free, and that one cannot earn the prize of salvation. Paradoxically, however, that does not free one from the responsibility of following the commandments and doing good works. I thought it was immortality that everyone receives. Eternal life is the kind of life that God lives. Those who are exalted receive it as well as receive it in plural by the covenant of marriage. I believe Joseph Smith described that as "eternal lives."
Robert F. Smith Posted April 29, 2018 Posted April 29, 2018 21 minutes ago, MormonMason said: I thought it was immortality that everyone receives. Eternal life is the kind of life that God lives. Those who are exalted receive it as well as receive it in plural by the covenant of marriage. I believe Joseph Smith described that as "eternal lives." Immortality is eternal life, and everyone gets it. However, there isn't much care in the usage of such terminology, and confusion results -- as you indicate. 1
MormonMason Posted April 29, 2018 Posted April 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Immortality is eternal life, and everyone gets it. However, there isn't much care in the usage of such terminology, and confusion results -- as you indicate. That "eternal life" is merely synonymous with "living forever" is a misnomer. Eternal life is the kind of life that God lives. Not all who are resurrected will receive it.
JAHS Posted April 29, 2018 Posted April 29, 2018 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Immortality is eternal life, and everyone gets it. However, there isn't much care in the usage of such terminology, and confusion results -- as you indicate. "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1: 39) If they are the same why is the word "and" in there? Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin: "Bringing to pass immortality is essentially a work of creation. God speaks, and worlds are formed. At the culmination of this work, man is placed upon the earth to learn, be tested, and gain experience. Because of the sacrifice of the Son of God, the hour will come when “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28–29). The just as well as the unjust are given a priceless and incomprehensible gift: immortality. Because of Jesus the Christ, we will live forever. We are immortal.Eternal life, however, is something altogether different. Immortality is about quantity. Eternal life is about quality. To use a metaphor, immortality is how long the dinner lasts. Eternal life is what is on the menu and who is with us at the table. Eternal life is the culmination of existence. As spiritual children of God, you and I are heirs to this priceless fortune, benefactors to a glorious future, recipients of grace." ("What Is the Difference between Immortality and Eternal Life?" New Era, Nov 2006) Them being the same is a non LDS view of their definitions.
Maidservant Posted April 29, 2018 Posted April 29, 2018 Hi. Scripturally and per Martin Luther, "works" does not mean "good actions you do on a daily basis as a believer (i.e. living a good, loving, obedient to God's laws life)". "Works" means "tokens or sacraments or rituals done (often on a periodic basis) and thinking that those tokens cause your goodness RATHER than having to live on a daily basis in goodness as a believer" (i.e. I did such-and-such a ritual, thus it's okay if I skip or forget about being a good person or skip or forget about the good choice I need to make right now, I'm still okay with God because I did the ritual He likes). (Remember, Martin Luther was facing frustration with the Church at the time and its multiplicity of tokens and sacraments, and indeed, payments. Not saying that tokens are wrong, but the attitude toward tokens as if it was all to be done. Also I believe Paul was in a particular frustrating challenge as he tried to change the minds of those accustomed to the tokens of the Mosaic Law; not to mention the gentile tokens and sacrifices to their gods.) The warnings in the scriptures, and Martin Luther's problem with works, is about the latter, not the former. The former IS faith--a dynamic, living, working life. We have our terms and ideas mixed up and then try to debate based on our mix-up. As I say, anyway :).
Robert F. Smith Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 10 hours ago, JAHS said: "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (Moses 1: 39) If they are the same why is the word "and" in there? A great many words are synonyms (or nearly so) which are often used together for emphasis. Many such expressions have become formulaic, particularly in a biblical or religious context. Some examples: "multiply and replenish," or in parallel, as in Psalm 38:1, "O Lord, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure." Scholars refer to such word pairs as A&B words, and they typically occur in standard order, unless part of a larger chiasm. Other pairs are complementary (merisms), or antithetical. Immortality and eternal life each have the same basic meaning in English. Maybe we should look at the Hebrew and Greek terms underlying them to be sure. Have you done that yet? 10 hours ago, JAHS said: Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin: "Bringing to pass immortality is essentially a work of creation. God speaks, and worlds are formed. At the culmination of this work, man is placed upon the earth to learn, be tested, and gain experience. Because of the sacrifice of the Son of God, the hour will come when “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28–29). The just as well as the unjust are given a priceless and incomprehensible gift: immortality. Because of Jesus the Christ, we will live forever. We are immortal.Eternal life, however, is something altogether different. Immortality is about quantity. Eternal life is about quality. To use a metaphor, immortality is how long the dinner lasts. Eternal life is what is on the menu and who is with us at the table. Eternal life is the culmination of existence. As spiritual children of God, you and I are heirs to this priceless fortune, benefactors to a glorious future, recipients of grace." ("What Is the Difference between Immortality and Eternal Life?" New Era, Nov 2006)...................... You might want to examine the regular definitions of such words in the Oxford English Dictionary, and then reflect on the historical context and usage. Does it conform to the ideas expressed by Elder Wirthlin? Is that therefore the specialized usage of Mormons? Or is it normative? Remember, non-Mormons often complain that Mormons use certain words with very different meanings than the norm. My point is still valid: Confusion results from the loose and undisciplined use of religious vocabulary. And I encounter this particular usage question all the time.
Robert F. Smith Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, MormonMason said: That "eternal life" is merely synonymous with "living forever" is a misnomer. Eternal life is the kind of life that God lives. Not all who are resurrected will receive it. Can you back that up with evidence from Hebrew and/or Greek? Edited April 30, 2018 by Robert F. Smith
Robert F. Smith Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 10 hours ago, Maidservant said: ................ (Remember, Martin Luther was facing frustration with the Church at the time and its multiplicity of tokens and sacraments, and indeed, payments. ............. Yes, he was particularly exercised over indulgences (buying salvation). One could even get points by going on pilgrimage to the Holy Land, and the like. 1
Anakin7 Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) From my LDS/Saint/Christian/Sentinel/Son Of Thunder/Kryptonian/Warrior archives - http://www.christian-history.org/sola-fide.html http://www.christian-history.org/martin-luther-sola-fide-quotes.html http://www.christian-history.org/not-by-faith-alone.html The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited April 30, 2018 by Anakin7
mbh26 Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) On 4/28/2018 at 1:10 PM, theplains said: Today's devotional by pastor Charles Price (on the topic of the Sheep and the Goats parable - Matthew 25:32) says, "There is a day of judgment coming, but it will not be an exam on the finer details of theology. Our judgment will be based on our works and particularly our works towards people. Our good works are not the cause of salvation, but the effect. Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable consequence of a life changed by Christ." In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit salvation or are good works the evidence of salvation? Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does salvation (the cause) produce good works (the effect) or do good works (the cause) produces salvation (the effect)? Also, is the gift of eternal life (the effect) earned or granted freely by faith in Christ (the cause)? Going back a few months, do you recall earning a Christmas gift through your own efforts or did the giver (even a stranger) give it to you without anything you had done? Thanks, Jim Can someone be saved and still sin afterwards? If salvation produces these good works, how is it possible for someone to sin after being saved? Edited April 30, 2018 by mbh26
Anakin7 Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 Read my Links above. We are not once saved always saved. See also for responses to one saved always saved - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
MormonMason Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 50 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Can you back that up with evidence from Hebrew and/or Greek? Probably (along with a couple other things), just as soon as I get access to my computer. I'm typing this on my phone at the moment and don't yet know what time that will be.
JAHS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: You might want to examine the regular definitions of such words in the Oxford English Dictionary, and then reflect on the historical context and usage. Does it conform to the ideas expressed by Elder Wirthlin? Is that therefore the specialized usage of Mormons? Or is it normative? Remember, non-Mormons often complain that Mormons use certain words with very different meanings than the norm. My point is still valid: Confusion results from the loose and undisciplined use of religious vocabulary. And I encounter this particular usage question all the time. Of course it is the specialized usage of Mormons, but if the apostles and prophets of God define it that way then it is the more correct usage.
Robert F. Smith Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 2 hours ago, JAHS said: Of course it is the specialized usage of Mormons, but if the apostles and prophets of God define it that way then it is the more correct usage. Anyone can express an opinion about what the meaning of words might be. It is the job of the scholar to see if in fact those definitions are normative, or come from a cocked hat. Describing is not prescribing. We have a similar problem with the definition of "intelligence(s)." In such a case it could very well be that we should invent a wholly new term to cover that concept, since the word is used for separate items even among Mormons. "Agency" is another such term. Maybe we need a special Mormon Dictionary.
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