Robert F. Smith Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 3 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Please show us where LDS theology teaches that anyone can receive "eternal life" during mortality (i.e. right now) and I'll admit that I am wrong. Not sure what you are suggesting here, since I have not argued that one can receive eternal life here and now.
FormerLDS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 35 minutes ago, RevTestament said: So what does Yeshua mean here that few find the door which leads to life if even the wicked live again? Is that what you mean by having eternal life? Or is it simply an unmerited gift from God which even the wicked receive when Hell gives up the dead? Notice the Word of God reveals that in all of the world there are actually only two roads. Jesus Christ plainly tells us in John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." There are those who have eternal life and there are those who do not. Which road are you on?
FormerLDS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 41 minutes ago, JAHS said: To me when I say the end of your life I mean the end of mortal life when Jesus comes and we are resurrected or transformed to a resurrected state. I agree with the rest but "that group" will not know they are part of that group until Jesus comes again. That's why we must endure to that end until we find out if we are indeed part of that group. We hope we will be and might even expect we will be but that's up to God. If I could show you plainly that the Bible tells us that you can know that you are part of "that group" that has eternal life during morality, would you be willing to believe the Bible?
FormerLDS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 33 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: According to LDS theology, "eternal life" can only be obtained after mortality. Jesus Christ offers eternal life to everyone today, if you would only believe in Him. Would you believe the words of Jesus Christ? John 6:47 "He that believeth on my hath everlasting life." Would you agree that there is a universal resurrection to eternal life? Or are they completely separate? What did Jesus Christ tell us in John 5:24? "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Those who have eternal life are immediately passed from death to life. That means those who do not have eternal life are dead! The savior tells us in John 3:36 those who do not receive eternal life during mortality shall not see life "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." This is not a universal resurrection friends. One has eternal life and the other group shall not see life.
FormerLDS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 43 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You will note that eternal life is set over against perishing, and that everlasting life seems to be a future state connected to resurrection. In Daniel, everlasting life is set over against everlasting contempt. The Book of Mormon and the book of Revelation have a Lake of Fire and Second Death for those who are evil (who have not been formally "justified" in the final judgment*). So, what is "life eternal"? Is eternal life the life enjoyed by all who find themselves in any of the Three Degrees of Glory? Or only for those who are exalted to the Celestial Kingdom? Or only those who gain the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom? Are the answers clear and unambiguous? *Which raises the question of justification by faith. I'm not going to tell you what you personally believe, but I can say what LDS theology defines as "eternal life" and "everlasting life" which, accordingly are the same thing, which I agree. They are the highest salvation possible.
RevTestament Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 26 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Notice the Word of God reveals that in all of the world there are actually only two roads. Jesus Christ plainly tells us in John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." There are those who have eternal life and there are those who do not. Which road are you on? Has it ever occurred to you that means that they do not go to hell, but pass into paradise, and are resurrected from there? 15 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The savior tells us in John 3:36 those who do not receive eternal life during mortality shall not see life "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." This is not a universal resurrection friends. One has eternal life and the other group shall not see life. Your idea that those who die without Yeshua are doomed to eternal death does not comport with the very words of Yeshua, who said: John 5:25 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the adead shall bhear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall clive. Yeshua tells us He is going to visit the dead for three days. Those who hear Him and believe Him will be resurrected with Him. So although they did not have eternal life, they gain it if they repent and follow Him. This does not agree with your belief that unless you receive eternal life during mortality, you cannot see life. You would doom those who have never even heard of Yeshua in this life to eternal spiritual death. I really thing you need to do some reevaluation of your scriptural interpretations.
JAHS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 43 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: 1 hour ago, JAHS said: To me when I say the end of your life I mean the end of mortal life when Jesus comes and we are resurrected or transformed to a resurrected state. I agree with the rest but "that group" will not know they are part of that group until Jesus comes again. That's why we must endure to that end until we find out if we are indeed part of that group. We hope we will be and might even expect we will be but that's up to God. If I could show you plainly that the Bible tells us that you can know that you are part of "that group" that has eternal life during morality, would you be willing to believe the Bible? 36 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: What did Jesus Christ tell us in John 5:24? "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Nobody can show "plainly" in the Bible about a lot of things. That's why there are so many different Bible-based christian denominations out there. Regarding the John 5:24 scripture, It says "Everlasting life"; not "Eternal life". Everyone who is resurrected will have everlasting life or will live forever in some form regardless of where they end up after they die. We learn by latter-day prophets that Eternal life is a different thing which is specifically for those who are exalted into the highest level of God's Kingdom. You need to remember that a lot here don't just believe in the Bible but in other scriptures and what is taught to us through latter-day prophets.
JAHS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: I'm not going to tell you what you personally believe, but I can say what LDS theology defines as "eternal life" and "everlasting life" which, accordingly are the same thing, which I agree. They are the highest salvation possible. They are not the same. According to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism: "To Latter-day Saints the phrase "eternal life" refers not only to everlasting life but also and more particularly to the quality of life God lives. Eternal life is available to all people who have lived on earth who accept this gift by their obedience to God's laws and ordinances." Added: Sometimes the words "everlasting life" and "eternal life" appear to be used interchangeably in some scriptures. Many who believe in God can obtain everlasting life which can include ending up in the Celestial kingdom. But "Eternal life" is different in that it is the same as God's life and is reserved for those who are exalted in the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom and become Gods. Edited April 30, 2018 by JAHS
FormerLDS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 59 minutes ago, RevTestament said: 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Has it ever occurred to you that means that they do not go to hell, but pass into paradise, and are resurrected from there? Sorry, not tracking what you're saying here. Can you explain? 1 hour ago, RevTestament said: Your idea that those who die without Yeshua are doomed to eternal death does not comport with the very words of Yeshua, who said: John 5:25 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the adead shall bhear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall clive. Yeshua tells us He is going to visit the dead for three days. Those who hear Him and believe Him will be resurrected with Him. So although they did not have eternal life, they gain it if they repent and follow Him. This does not agree with your belief that unless you receive eternal life during mortality, you cannot see life. You would doom those who have never even heard of Yeshua in this life to eternal spiritual death. I really thing you need to do some reevaluation of your scriptural interpretations. Read the previous verse. The Savior plainly tells us there are those who are dead which hear the Son and pass from death unto life. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." The hour is coming and now is when those who are dead will hear the voice of Jesus Christ and pass from death until eternal life. What does "shall not see life" mean in John 3:36? You don't get a second chance.
pogi Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: What does "shall not see life" mean in John 3:36? You don't get a second chance. What about those who never had a first chance to believe?
FormerLDS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 1 hour ago, JAHS said: Nobody can show "plainly" in the Bible about a lot of things. That's why there are so many different Bible-based christian denominations out there. Regarding the John 5:24 scripture, It says "Everlasting life"; not "Eternal life". Everyone who is resurrected will have everlasting life or will live forever in some form regardless of where they end up after they die. We learn by latter-day prophets that Eternal life is a different thing which is specifically for those who are exalted into the highest level of God's Kingdom. You need to remember that a lot here don't just believe in the Bible but in other scriptures and what is taught to us through latter-day prophets. Could it be that the reason there are so many Bible-based christian denominations, is people do not believe what Jesus Christ plainly says? "Everlasting life" and "eternal life" are the same thing in LDS theology and in my beliefs. That's why when you look up "everlasting life" it says "See eternal life". They both refer to the highest level of salvation possible. What you are referring to "living forever" is the LDS doctrine of "immortality", not "eternal life".
FormerLDS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, pogi said: What about those who never had a first chance to believe? What does the Bible plainly tell us? Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men". This means that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to everyone at least once in their lifetime. How is this possible? Consider the following verses: "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." Psalm 19:1 "And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah." Psalm 50:6 "The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory." Psalm 97:6 If salvation appears to all men, how can there be those who do not have a chance to believe? If the heavens declare His glory and His righteousness, how can there be those who do not have a first chance to believe?
pogi Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Could it be that the reason there are so many Bible-based christian denominations, is people do not believe what Jesus Christ plainly says? Are you suggesting that your particular denomination is the only which believes what Jesus "plainly" says?
Robert F. Smith Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I'm not going to tell you what you personally believe, Very considerate of you. 😎 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: but I can say what LDS theology defines as "eternal life" and "everlasting life" which, accordingly are the same thing, which I agree. They are the highest salvation possible. I assumed that you and everyone else understood that everlasting life and eternal life are synonymous translations of the same Greek phrase. So you believe that LDS theology applies the term exclusively to the highest level of the Celestial Glory, and nothing else, and that this is a clear and unambiguous matter of fact. Is LDS theology that systematic and well-established?
pogi Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: What does the Bible plainly tell us? Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men". This means that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to everyone at least once in their lifetime. How is this possible? Consider the following verses: "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." Psalm 19:1 "And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah." Psalm 50:6 "The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory." Psalm 97:6 If salvation appears to all men, how can there be those who do not have a chance to believe? If the heavens declare His glory and His righteousness, how can there be those who do not have a first chance to believe? Titus 2:11 - "Plainly", salvation (rather than eternal life) will appear unto all men because of the grace of God. God graces everyone in many other ways too, even without knowing his name. God graces everyone in many other ways too, even without knowing his name. Give me your interpretation of what you think these versus "plainly" mean? What does it mean for people who have never seen a Bible, that the "heavens" declare his righteousness? Are you suggesting that the literal voice of God from heaven will declare his name and word to them in their physical ears? What does this look like to you? Are you suggesting that no one has ever died without hearing the name Jesus Christ in their life? Not only has every single soul who has ever lived heard his name, but they know enough about him to "believe" in him? These passages are easily explained by the LDS because of our understanding of the light of Christ, but I am curious to see how you interpret this. You reject that this will happen through feelings in the hearts of those who are born without Bibles or preachers (as evidenced by other threads), so without a Bible or a preacher, and without speaking to the heart, the only possible explanation is a literal voice from heaven preaching to these people...is that really what you believe? Edited April 30, 2018 by pogi
Robert F. Smith Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: What did Jesus Christ tell us in John 5:24? "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Those who have eternal life are immediately passed from death to life. That means those who do not have eternal life are dead! The savior tells us in John 3:36 those who do not receive eternal life during mortality shall not see life "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." This is not a universal resurrection friends. One has eternal life and the other group shall not see life. So, you are saying that someone who does not have eternal life here and now is spiritually dead, and one who has eternal life here and now (is saved) is spiritually alive? And you reject Rev 20:5-15 in which universal resurrection takes place, with everyone being assigned to his fate based on the final judgment?
JAHS Posted April 30, 2018 Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." Psalm 19:1 "And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah." Psalm 50:6 "The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory." Psalm 97:6 Usually when the scriptures talk about "heavens" it is talking about what we see in the sky or space; planets, stars, etc. So are you saying that just because all the other people of the earth can see what He has made; that is enough to declare that they have had a fair chance to accept Christ and His gospel? Does that include all those who have never even heard of Jesus and His gospel or grace or the Bible? How can they believe and be saved in something they have never heard of before? If what you say is true why do we have any need for religions or the Bible at all? In what way do "The heavens declare the glory of God" ? Edited April 30, 2018 by JAHS
Anakin7 Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 FormerLDS my evangelical Fundamentalist Baptist friend you are back welcome !, [ From your Former Methodist/Fundamentalist Baptist now LDS, Saint, Christian,.Sentinel, Son Of Thunder Kryptonian, Warrior] friend. I see/read that you are once again endlessly using the same topic of salvation that you have come here before to present to us once again. Thank you for your concern for our eternal souls, we really appreciate your zeal thou it is/maybe not according to true knowledge but thank you never the less. Once again there is no Once Saved Always Saved In The Old Testament , New Testament or Early church history for the 1st 1500 years. We believe in the possession of True Eternal Life but is conditional upon us in our walk with The LORD. May True Grace that is accepted, accessed, activated, grabbed hold of, obtained, received, held on to by way of True FaithBe with you and all you Love. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin 7
LittleNipper Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, pogi said: What about those who never had a first chance to believe? Everyone has an opportunity and most are far too busy with their own lives to care. I keep hearing about all these people that never heard about Jesus. They are no different than anyone else. Most everyone has a TV, and most everyone has a radio, and most everyone has a computer, and most everyone has a cellphone, and most everyone looks at a newspaper!!!! What they seem to lack is motivation to seek after GOD. I don't see Americans as having an advantage except they once were generally very concerned regarding spiritual things. This is changing as they become more infatuated with drugs, sex, parties, careers, sports, family life... Whose fault is that? ---- Ultimately THEIRS! Everyone has an opportunity but few listen to that still small voice when it happens ---- they are far too busy with their own wants and desires... They miss their many chances in life. Even the native on some tropical island either ponders his life and what GOD desires or simply thinks of his god as something to fulfill his bidding ---- created in his image rather than the other way around. Essentially, everyone is related to NOAH ---- so when did they FORGET GOD and why are they ignoring HIM on an hourly basis? No one has an excuse! Edited May 1, 2018 by LittleNipper
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Everyone has an opportunity and most are far too busy with their own lives to care. I keep hearing about all these people that never heard about Jesus. They are no different than anyone else. Most everyone has a TV, and most everyone has a radio, and most everyone has a computer, and most everyone has a cellphone, and most everyone looks at a newspaper!!!! What they seem to lack is motivation to seek after GOD. I don't see Americans as having an advantage except they once were generally very concerned regarding spiritual things. This is changing as they become more infatuated with drugs, sex, parties, careers, sports, family life... Whose fault is that? ---- Ultimately THEIRS! Everyone has an opportunity but few listen to that still small voice when it happens ---- they are far too busy with their own wants and desires... They miss their many chances in life. Even the native on some tropical island either ponders his life and what GOD desires or simply thinks of his god as something to fulfill his bidding ---- created in his image rather than the other way around. Essentially, everyone is related to NOAH ---- so when did they FORGET GOD and why are they ignoring HIM on an hourly basis? No one has an excuse! I wonder if these people get the newspaper? This tribe has literally been un-contacted by civilization in the jungles of the Brazilian Amazon. How many years ago did Noah live? Are you seriously suggesting that these people have "no excuse" for not knowing who Noah is? What about Jesus? How are they to believe in the name of Jesus without a Bible or a preacher? What are their "many chances" to believe in Jesus? 36 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Even the native on some tropical island either ponders his life and what GOD desires or simply thinks of his god as something to fulfill his bidding ---- created in his image rather than the other way around. What are you suggesting here? Let's say that one of these indigenous un-contacted people in the Amazon does ponder his life and what their "God/s" desire? Then what? Do you expect a missionary to show up at their hut who speaks their unknown dialect? We don't even know their language! What do you expect from them? You accuse Mormons of not believing in Jesus, and we have the bible...in our language...we "ponder our lives and what God desires for us"...we listen to and obey the "still small voice" to the best of our ability...and we STILL don't believe in Jesus according to your crazy imaginations...what the hell do you expect from these people in the Amazon!? I am amazed at you and your belligerent condemnation of these people/culture (and my people) whose hearts you don't know. These are children of God, how dare you judge them to be damned because they don't know...and never will know the name of Jesus. I don't know what to say to that. Edited May 1, 2018 by pogi 1
JAHS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Even the native on some tropical island either ponders his life and what GOD desires or simply thinks of his god as something to fulfill his bidding ---- created in his image rather than the other way around. How about that native living 1000 years ago? He may have thought about some kind of God, but how is he supposed to believe and have faith in Jesus and His gospel when he did not even know the Bible existed? "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5: 24) "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36) When did that native have the chance to believe on the Son or hear Christ's word, just a few of the things required for everlasting life? Edited May 1, 2018 by JAHS 2
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, JAHS said: How about that native living 1000 years ago? Exactly! Little nipper doesn't seem to realize that the majority of the population of the earth, from the beginning of time, did not have a computer, phone, newspaper, TV, radio. The vast majority of which were not Christian, but Buddhist, Muslim, and Hindu, etc., never saw a Christian preacher, and never set eyes on a Bible. They are all damned according to him. It makes me sick to think how easily he can condemn a child of God...let alone the vast majority of his children who have ever lived. Sickening. Edited May 1, 2018 by pogi 1
LittleNipper Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, pogi said: I wonder if these people get the newspaper? This tribe has literally been un-contacted by civilization in the jungles of the Brazilian Amazon. How many years ago did Noah live? Are you seriously suggesting that these people have "no excuse" for not knowing who Noah is? What about Jesus? How are they to believe in the name of Jesus without a Bible or a preacher? What are their "many chances" to believe in Jesus? What are you suggesting here? Let's say that one of these indigenous un-contacted people in the Amazon does ponder his life and what their "God/s" desire? Then what? Do you expect a missionary to show up at their hut who speaks their unknown dialect? We don't even know their language! What do you expect from them? You accuse Mormons of not believing in Jesus, and we have the bible...in our language...we "ponder our lives and what God desires for us"...we listen to and obey the "still small voice" to the best of our ability...and we STILL don't believe in Jesus according to your crazy imaginations...what the hell do you expect from these people in the Amazon!? I am amazed at you and your belligerent condemnation of these people/culture (and my people) whose hearts you don't know. These are children of God, how dare you judge them to be damned because they don't know...and never will know the name of Jesus. I don't know what to say to that. Isn't this just what is recorded in the Bible? The eunuch didn't understand GOD's Word and GOD sent someone to enlighten him? Even Mormons believe that Jesus came to those living in the New World. I believe GOD sent missionaries and shipwrecked Christians over time to bring the word to those who would listen. The question is ----did they in fact listen or simply distort the truth with repeated human sacrifices? I believe you listen more to your church than you do to the Holy Spirit or the Word. In that regard how are you any different than the Orthodox Jew the can only ponder the rabbinical writings and add excuse after excuse for why a JUST GOD will not ultimately punish his sin without a sacrifice? I mean, It's been 2000 years since their temple was destroyed... And yet they still seek to rebuild it and wont recognise that the Messiah is Jesus (obviously some do and many more are beginning to). This of course involves placing one's trust in GOD alone and not in RITUAL! Ritualism and TRADITION is what blinds and binds people until they are no different than some natives hiding from the reality all around them in plan view... Edited May 1, 2018 by LittleNipper
Anakin7 Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 FormerLDS and Little Nipper which Gospel or Salvation do you Believe ? - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/whichgospel.htm The Atonement it Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 The Real Salvation from an Evangelical Christian Preacher in response to FormerLDS and Little Nipper - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/salvationps.htm The Atonement it is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin
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