FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 1 hour ago, smac97 said: And a condition for salvation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16;16) Seems to be that "belief" is the emphasis. Why isn't baptism reiterated in the second half of the verse? Again, there IS a "baptism" that happens the moment one believes. Furthermore, if this was a reference to immersion in water, what about the laying of hands and the rest of the commandments supposedly "required" for salvation?
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Quote "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36 This verse works quite well in the LDS paradigm. Thanks, -Smac How? According to LDS theology, those who believe on the Son STILL DO NOT have everlasting life. Look it up!
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 32 minutes ago, pogi said: CFR. That is not what the Bible "plainly". You seriously think that you can sin your life away AND take credit for the works of Christ, as if you did them? We are still expected to do works, just as Christ was expected to do the works of the Father. "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing...(John 14:12)." It doesn't say that we will get credit for the works that he did, but that we will DO the WORKS that he did. If you do not the works of the savior, then you don't truly believe, nor do you truly love the savior, as the scriptures "plainly" state. In Matthew 21, the Savior addressed those who thought they did the will of the father, but in reality they were not. "But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not." (v.28-30) Which son did the will of the Father?
smac97 Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Quote Quote "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36 This verse works quite well in the LDS paradigm. Thanks, -Smac How? Very well. 2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: According to LDS theology, those who believe on the Son STILL DO NOT have everlasting life. Look it up! Again, OSAS has never sat well with me. I respect that you feel differently, but I don't think you'll ever be able to convince me of its merits. Thanks, -Smac
smac97 Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) On 5/4/2018 at 12:18 PM, FormerLDS said: Quote And a condition for salvation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16) Seems to be that "belief" is the emphasis. Seems to be that both belief and baptism are required for salvation. It's right there, after all. The New Testament is filled with commandments to obey God. Obedience requires . . . works. Quote Why isn't baptism reiterated in the second half of the verse? Perhaps because "we believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ..." (AoF 1:4). Quote Again, there IS a "baptism" that happens the moment one believes. With respect, I disagree. Again, OSAS has never sat well with me. "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5). I believe this is a reference to the same sort of "baptism" that Jesus received in the River Jordan. Quote Furthermore, if this was a reference to immersion in water, what about the laying of hands and the rest of the commandments supposedly "required" for salvation? Again, "we believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ..." (AoF 1:4). Note that "ordinances" here is plural. Also, the Bible is not the sole source of revelation to the Saints. Thanks, -Smac Edited May 5, 2018 by smac97 1
pogi Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: In Matthew 21, the Savior addressed those who thought they did the will of the father, but in reality they were not. "But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not." (v.28-30) Which son did the will of the Father? No, Matthew 21 does not address "those who thought they did the will of the father, but in reality did not". It addresses those who covenant to do the work of the father, but instead do not. The one who did the will of the Father was the one who actually WORKED in the vineyard, instead of promising to do the work and instead not even making an effort. You never answered my CFR. Those who believe...do his works (John 14:12). Those who love Christ...do his works (John 14:15, 21, 23-24). You cannot refute it. Edited May 4, 2018 by pogi 1
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 43 minutes ago, smac97 said: Quote Again, there IS a "baptism" that happens the moment one believes. With respect, I disagree. Again, OSAS has never sat well with me. "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5). I believe this is a reference to the same sort of "baptism" that Jesus received in the River Jordan. If anything, this should demonstrate my point. How can "born of water" not be physical birth? Look at the previous verse for crying out loud! 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Clearly, Nicodemus assumes "born again" means PHYSICAL BIRTH. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus corrects Nicodemus by first addressing his reference to FLESHLY BIRTH, THEN the spiritual birth. Verse 6 follows the SAME fleshly birth, THEN spiritual birth pattern: 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. There is no mention of baptism in John 3:4-6. There is a fleshly birth and a spiritual birth for those who are "born again". The second birth is a baptism that occurs the moment one believes. The old man is buried and the new, inward man is resurrected from death and given new life, again, the moment one believes and is born again (receives eternal life).
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Again, OSAS has never sat well with me. I respect that you feel differently, but I don't think you'll ever be able to convince me of its merits. Thanks, -Smac I just quoted you the words of Jesus Christ. And you're right - they don't sit well with LDS theology!
smac97 Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Quote Again, OSAS has never sat well with me. I respect that you feel differently, but I don't think you'll ever be able to convince me of its merits. Thanks, -Smac I just quoted you the words of Jesus Christ. Nope. Jesus never said "Once saved, always saved." Quote And you're right - they don't sit well with LDS theology! If you have something substantive to say, I'm all ears. Taunts and hectoring . . . not so much. Thanks, -Smac Edited May 4, 2018 by smac97
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 11 minutes ago, pogi said: No, Matthew 21 does not address "those who thought they did the will of the father, but in reality did not". It addresses those who covenant to do the work of the father, but instead do not. The one who did the will of the Father was the one who actually WORKED in the vineyard, instead of promising to do the work and instead not even making an effort. If what you're saying is true, why then did the Savior tell them "the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you."? (Matt 21:31) They picked that same group you did! 15 minutes ago, pogi said: You never answered my CFR. Those who believe...do his works (John 14:12). What does the scripture plainly say? John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." The works that Jesus Christ did (i.e. perfect obedience) are attributed upon those who believe. How? Through belief in His word, those who have eternal life HAVE JESUS CHRIST living within them. He is IN me and I am in Him and I have his sinless perfection and perfect obedience given to me just as if I obeyed the commandments the way He did. Acts 13:3 says this "And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." "Justified" means just as if I'd never sinned! I am justified. 25 minutes ago, pogi said: Those who love Christ...do his works (John 14:15, 21, 23-24). You cannot refute it. Again, His works are now my own - just as if I did them! I have HIS perfection given to me. I AM justified. I AM sanctified. I AM perfect because of Him in me.
JAHS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 17 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: If anything, this should demonstrate my point. How can "born of water" not be physical birth? Look at the previous verse for crying out loud! 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Clearly, Nicodemus assumes "born again" means PHYSICAL BIRTH. 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus corrects Nicodemus by first addressing his reference to FLESHLY BIRTH, THEN the spiritual birth. Verse 6 follows the SAME fleshly birth, THEN spiritual birth pattern: 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. There is no mention of baptism in John 3:4-6. There is a fleshly birth and a spiritual birth for those who are "born again". The second birth is a baptism that occurs the moment one believes. The old man is buried and the new, inward man is resurrected from death and given new life, again, the moment one believes and is born again (receives eternal life). Later in that chapter it says: And John also was baptizing in Ænon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. (Verse 23) Also: When Jesus was baptized: "And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:" (Mark 1: 10) We all must also be born of the spirit, but how do you explain all the obvious references for the need to be in baptized in water (besides birth)?
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 19 minutes ago, smac97 said: If you have something substantive to say, I'm all ears. Taunts and hectoring . . . not so much. Thanks, -Smac Sometimes a picture does what words cannot do...
smac97 Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Sometimes a picture does what words cannot do... Sometimes the best response to taunts is to igno...
pogi Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 11 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: If what you're saying is true, why then did the Savior tell them "the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you."? (Matt 21:31) Because many publicans and harlots believed in John's baptism and were baptized of him, while the chief priests and the pharisees did not (Matt 21:32). 17 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: What does the scripture plainly say? John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." It "plainly" says that he that believes on Jesus will DO the works of Jesus (not have them attributed to him), and "greater works than these shall he do". That means that there are works beyond what Christ did that believers will do out of their own desire to be engaged in doing good. Plain as day. Believers DO the works. 20 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Through belief in His word, those who have eternal life HAVE JESUS CHRIST living within them. The only way he is in you is if you believe in him unto good works. This is also "plainly" in the scriptures: Quote Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me (John 14:23-24) Do you love Jesus FormerLDS? If you don't do his works, then you do not.
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 24 minutes ago, JAHS said: Later in that chapter it says: And John also was baptizing in Ænon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. (Verse 23) Also: When Jesus was baptized: "And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:" (Mark 1: 10) We all must also be born of the spirit, but how do you explain all the obvious references for the need to be in baptized in water (besides birth)? Like any other works, water baptism is for those who already have eternal life.
JAHS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Like any other works, water baptism is for those who already have eternal life. If they already have eternal life why are they doing it? What purpose does it serve? Peter said "Repent, and be baptized every one of you," Acts 2:38. If they already have eternal life why is he telling them to repent and then be baptized? Here Peter talks about souls being saved by water and how baptism saves us.: "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3: 20-21.)
pogi Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Like any other works, water baptism is for those who already have eternal life. No, the newness of life and remission of sins doesn't happen until after baptism. Good little article on that from an evangelist of the Church of Christ in Zion, Illinois with 5 strong supporting passages: http://www.padfield.com/2003/baptism.html Edited May 4, 2018 by pogi 1
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 15 minutes ago, pogi said: Because many publicans and harlots believed in John's baptism and were baptized of him, while the chief priests and the pharisees did not (Matt 21:32). Why then was the second son who said he would go, but did not go likened unto those who are justified through belief? They did not go! 19 minutes ago, pogi said: It "plainly" says that he that believes on Jesus will DO the works of Jesus (not have them attributed to him), and "greater works than these shall he do". That means that there are works beyond what Christ did that believers will do out of their own desire to be engaged in doing good. Plain as day. Believers DO the works. Are you saying that you think your works are greater that the works of Jesus Christ? I seriously doubt you really believe that. No, for those who have eternal life, Christ provides that which God requires. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says it best "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Christ takes all of my sin - past, present and future - and gives me His righteousness in return! 31 minutes ago, pogi said: 56 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Through belief in His word, those who have eternal life HAVE JESUS CHRIST living within them. The only way he is in you is if you believe in him unto good works. This is also "plainly" in the scriptures: Why does Jesus Christ tell us He will come into those who believe with no mention of worthy behavior? "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." I heard His voice through His word and believed and He came into me. That's how I received eternal life. 39 minutes ago, pogi said: Quote Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me (John 14:23-24) Do you love Jesus FormerLDS? If you don't do his works, then you do not. The rejected of the savior truly thought they were doing His works. They even told the savior in Matthew 7 "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" And again Matthew 25 "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" But Jesus Christ will tell them "I never knew you", and He calls their work "iniquity". All of your worthy behavior - those things you do that you think will be pleasing to Heavenly Father - are worthless in His sight. Believing in the Son and receiving His gift of eternal life IS doing the will of the Father.
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 39 minutes ago, JAHS said: If they already have eternal life why are they doing it? What purpose does it serve? Because they love Him. See, only those who have eternal life already can truly say they obey because they love Him. All others claim they love Him, but truly, out of selfishness, they seek eternal life.
Anakin7 Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) Once again, water Baptism needed to continue, and enter The True Kingdom Gates - http://www.bebaptized.org Edited May 5, 2018 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 36 minutes ago, pogi said: No, the newness of life and remission of sins doesn't happen until after baptism. In John 15:3, Jesus Christ tells us we are made clean through his spoken word, not baptismal tub. "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." Acts 10:43 tells us that "through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Those who heard and believed immediately received the gift of the Holy Ghost without baptism!
JAHS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 19 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: 1 hour ago, JAHS said: If they already have eternal life why are they doing it? What purpose does it serve? Because they love Him. See, only those who have eternal life already can truly say they obey because they love Him. All others claim they love Him, but truly, out of selfishness, they seek eternal life. If water baptism is not needed for salvation, not sure how getting dunked in water is a sign of love. What about the other baptism scriptures I mentioned?
pogi Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Why then was the second son who said he would go, but did not go likened unto those who are justified through belief? They did not go! What? This is totally confounding to me that you think the second son who broke his covenant/lied to the Father and did not work in his vineyard is the justified son. Where was he justified? CFR Here is the passage: Quote 28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Here is one explanation (non-Mormon) of the passage: Quote Question: "What is the meaning of the Parable of the Two Sons?" Answer: The Parable of the Two Sons can be found in Matthew 21:28-32. The basic story is of a man with two sons who told them to go work in the vineyard. The first son refused, but later obeyed and went. The second son initially expressed obedience, but actually disobeyed and refused to work in the vineyard. The son who ultimately did the will of his father was the first son because he eventually obeyed. Jesus then likens the first son to tax collectors and prostitutes—the outcasts of Jewish society—because they believed John the Baptist and accepted “the way of righteousness” (v. 32), in spite of their initial disobedience to the Law. The key interpretive point in understanding the Parable of the Two Sons comes in defining to whom Jesus is speaking. For that we need to look at the overall context of this passage. Matthew chapter 21 begins with Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem. The whole point of Matthew’s gospel is to show Jesus as the long-awaited Messiah. The crowd responds by shouting Hosannas and praises to the King. The King’s first act upon entering Jerusalem is to cleanse the temple (21:12-17). Afterwards, we see Jesus cursing a fig tree (21:18-22). This account may seem an isolated story, but Jesus was making a strong symbolic point. The fig tree is often symbolic of Israel (cf. Hosea 9:10; Joel 1:7). The fact that the fig tree had leaves but no fruit is symbolic of Israel’s religious activity—i.e., all the trappings of spirituality, but no substance. Israel may have had the leaves of activity, but not the fruit of repentance and obedience to God, which is why Jesus tells them the prostitutes and tax collectors will enter the kingdom ahead of them (v. 31). In Matthew 21:23-27, the religious authorities—the chief priests and elders—question Jesus’ authority. Who is this Jesus who comes into Jerusalem receiving the praises of the masses and drives the moneychangers out of the temple? The stage is set for the showdown. It is in this context that Jesus tells three parables—the Two Sons, the Tenants, and the Wedding Feast. Each of these parables is told to the Jewish religious leaders, each illustrates their rejection of Jesus, and each pronounces judgment on Israel for their rejection of their Messiah. In the Parable of the Two Sons, the leaders of Israel are the second son who claimed obedience, but did not do the will of the father. https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-two-sons.html Every Bible commentary on Biblehub.com agrees with this reading: Here is a notable one from the Benson Commentary (but read all of them from the link - NO Christian commentary agrees with you): http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/21-28.htm Quote ...I will plainly tell you my judgment of it, which is very naturally connected with the present subject. This our Lord does in two parables, in the former of which, by a question which he puts to them, he makes them condemn themselves. A certain man had two sons — Signifying two sorts of persons: some that prove better than they promise, represented by the former of these sons; others that promise better than they prove, represented by the latter. And he came to the first — Exhibiting the disobedient, profligate, and wicked Jews, and open sinners of all descriptions, who, though they neither professed nor promised to do the will of God, nor gave any reason to hope well concerning them, yet afterward being convinced of sin, and brought to repentance by the preaching of John the Baptist and Christ, turned from their sins, and sincerely embraced the gospel. The spirit and conduct of the second son was an exact picture of the temper and behaviour of the Pharisees; for in their prayers and praises they gave God the most honourable titles, and professed the greatest readiness and zeal in his service: but it was a bare profession, contradicted by all their actions. They said, I go, sir, to work in thy vineyard, but went not. Jesus having finished his parable, asked, Whether of them twain did the will of his Father? — Without hesitation, they replied, The first — Not perceiving that by this answer they condemned themselves, till Jesus, making a direct application of the parable, gave them that sharp but just rebuke; Verily I say unto you — Even the most abandoned sinners of the age, such as the publicans and harlots, go into the kingdom of God before you — Are much more open to conviction, and more readily obey the gospel than you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness — Walking in it as well as teaching it, and gave evident proofs of his mission from God; and ye believed him not — Gave no credit to the testimony which he bare to me, nor received his doctrine, and consequently would not enter the vineyard: but the publicans and harlots — The most notorious sinners; believed him — Were reformed, and obeyed the gospel, though at first they said, I will not. And ye, when ye had seen it — And could not deny that an amazing change had been wrought in them, and that persons of the most abandoned characters had been reformed by his sermons, which doubtless was a strong proof of his mission from God; yet repented not afterward — Of your opposition to that holy man, nor of your disobedience to his instructions; That ye might believe him — And therefore I solemnly warn you, (for so his words imply,) that your condition will hereafter be worse than theirs; and that you shall see those whom you now despise and abhor, entering into the glory from which you shall be excluded. I will plainly tell you my judgment of it, which is very naturally connected with the present subject. This our Lord does in two parables, in the former of which, by a question which he puts to them, he makes them condemn themselves. A certain man had two sons — Signifying two sorts of persons: some that prove better than they promise, represented by the former of these sons; others that promise better than they prove, represented by the latter. And he came to the first — Exhibiting the disobedient, profligate, and wicked Jews, and open sinners of all descriptions, who, though they neither professed nor promised to do the will of God, nor gave any reason to hope well concerning them, yet afterward being convinced of sin, and brought to repentance by the preaching of John the Baptist and Christ, turned from their sins, and sincerely embraced the gospel. The spirit and conduct of the second son was an exact picture of the temper and behaviour of the Pharisees; for in their prayers and praises they gave God the most honourable titles, and professed the greatest readiness and zeal in his service: but it was a bare profession, contradicted by all their actions. They said, I go, sir, to work in thy vineyard, but went not. Jesus having finished his parable, asked, Whether of them twain did the will of his Father? — Without hesitation, they replied, The first — Not perceiving that by this answer they condemned themselves, till Jesus, making a direct application of the parable, gave them that sharp but just rebuke; Verily I say unto you — Even the most abandoned sinners of the age, such as the publicans and harlots, go into the kingdom of God before you — Are much more open to conviction, and more readily obey the gospel than you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness — Walking in it as well as teaching it, and gave evident proofs of his mission from God; and ye believed him not — Gave no credit to the testimony which he bare to me, nor received his doctrine, and consequently would not enter the vineyard: but the publicans and harlots — The most notorious sinners; believed him — Were reformed, and obeyed the gospel, though at first they said, I will not. And ye, when ye had seen it — And could not deny that an amazing change had been wrought in them, and that persons of the most abandoned characters had been reformed by his sermons, which doubtless was a strong proof of his mission from God; yet repented not afterward — Of your opposition to that holy man, nor of your disobedience to his instructions; That ye might believe him — And therefore I solemnly warn you, (for so his words imply,) that your condition will hereafter be worse than theirs; and that you shall see those whom you now despise and abhor, entering into the glory from which you shall be excluded. 1
Eek! Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, FormerLDS said: "Justified" means just as if I'd never sinned! I am justified. Again, His works are now my own - just as if I did them! I have HIS perfection given to me. I AM justified. I AM sanctified. I AM perfect because of Him in me. I have no problem with your belief that you are not under condemnation. However claiming that you are "perfect" is unrealistic. There is a huge gap between "not spending eternity in hell" and "perfection". Mormonism recognizes this, which is why Mormons try to actually BECOME the same manner of man as Jesus, rather then expecting to receive an honorary degree in Perfection simply because they believe something ABOUT Jesus. Jesus' works are not your own as if you did them. Maybe one day you will, but not before you have BECOME the same manner of man as Jesus. It's a long road. Edited May 5, 2018 by Eek! 2
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