Anakin7 Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 30 minutes ago, JAHS said: "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20: 12) Judged according to "their" works; not the works of Jesus. So the works I do in this life will be important when I am judged. Our allegiance, commitment, confidence, devotion, discipleship, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience trust, that accepts, accesses, activates, grabs hold of, holds on to Jesus Christ True Grace, by way of Covenant labors of love to serve God and man is what we will be judged by. Reads ands sounds Truly Christian and Biblical to me.
FormerLDS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 17 hours ago, JAHS said: On 5/2/2018 at 8:50 AM, FormerLDS said: You read these passages with pre-conceived LDS interpretation which changes what you are reading. For example, if I told you to "jump for joy", would you jump because you already have joy or would you jump in order to get joy? Both. And you are reading selective passages with your preconceived interpretation. The baptism scriptures don't need any preconceived interpretation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" No interpretation needed for that one, It is quite clear. Not all baptism is immersion in water. There is a baptism with water and a baptism with the Spirit. John the Baptist foretold of this spiritual baptism in each of the gospels: "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." Mark 1:8 So when does Jesus baptize someone with the Holy Ghost? In Acts 10:44-48 we see those who believed and received the gift of the Holy Ghost without being baptized by water. "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." The baptism of Spirit occurs the moment one believes and is passed from death and condemnation unto eternal life and has nothing to do with water baptism.
FormerLDS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 17 hours ago, MormonMason said: The Dead Sea Scrolls are not from Alexandria, and they agree with the Septuagint in quite a number of places. But, all you need to do to see that a great many quotes from the Old Testament come directly out of the Septuagint is to look at the Septuagint and compare with the quotes in the New Testament. Quite a number of them are verbatim or near verbatim. New Testament writers quoted the Septuagint, and the only two kinds of people who deny it are those who live in denial and those who are unaware. Why not enlighten yourself? You don't even have to know Greek to do it. You can count letters and notice how many of them are identical in identical order. It is better if you can read Greek, though. I'll start you off with a few examples. Wish we could do tables here. It would be a lot easier to demonstrate correspondences. I'll start with Heb. 1:5. The quotes I have set in bold. We could play "yes it is, no it isn't" all day long. You do not have an original manuscript to adequately demonstrate your point. Like I said, I can just as easily say that the Septuagint quotes the original text, not vice versa, the Septuagint was not written before Christ, so He couldn't possibly have quoted it. You got nothing.
JAHS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 16 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Not all baptism is immersion in water. There is a baptism with water and a baptism with the Spirit. John the Baptist foretold of this spiritual baptism in each of the gospels: "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." Mark 1:8 So when does Jesus baptize someone with the Holy Ghost? In Acts 10:44-48 we see those who believed and received the gift of the Holy Ghost without being baptized by water. "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." The baptism of Spirit occurs the moment one believes and is passed from death and condemnation unto eternal life and has nothing to do with water baptism. Anyone can receive the Holy Ghost before or after Baptism by water, Like when Simeon had the Holy Ghost come upon him. "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. (Luke 2: 25) In the Acts 10 scripture these people also had the Holy Ghost come upon them like it did Simeon, then it says, "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" If they already had the Holy Ghost with them, why then were they commanded to be baptized? "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2: 38) Here Peter separates water baptism from the Holy Ghost. They are two separate things that are both required. Water baptism and receiving the "gift of the Holy Ghost", which is different from just having the Holy Ghost come upon someone.
FormerLDS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 14 hours ago, pogi said: You act like good works are evil. Good works are simply a manifestation of our belief in Jesus Christ. So, why can’t you simply accept that we meet all the criteria you list and leave us alone. Our works do not save us (no one is arguing that). I do good works because I don’t just believe in Jesus, but I believe him too. When he said, “if ye love me, keep my commandments”, I believe that. It is not enough to just believe in him (even the devils do that), but the belief he requires is centered and anchored in love for him. We believe him with our hearts, not just our heads (as the devils do). If you believe without love/heart (obedience), then how are you any different from the devils? If you do not believe your works will save you (speaking of eternal life), do you believe all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel? Specifically what "laws and ordinances of the gospel" are not works that you can do?
FormerLDS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, JAHS said: Anyone can receive the Holy Ghost before or after Baptism by water, Like when Simeon had the Holy Ghost come upon him. "And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. (Luke 2: 25) In the Acts 10 scripture these people also had the Holy Ghost come upon them like it did Simeon, then it says, "And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" If they already had the Holy Ghost with them, why then were they commanded to be baptized? "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2: 38) Here Peter separates water baptism from the Holy Ghost. They are two separate things that are both required. Water baptism and receiving the "gift of the Holy Ghost", which is different from just having the Holy Ghost come upon someone. Does Acts 10 say "the Holy Ghost" or "the gift of the Holy Ghost"? "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost."
pogi Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: If you do not believe your works will save you (speaking of eternal life), do you believe all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel? Specifically what "laws and ordinances of the gospel" are not works that you can do? Don't ask more questions until you have answered the ones directed at you. I answer all of your question, but you ignore most of mine, and instead make a diversion by asking more questions. You answer my questions, then I will answer yours. That is how respectful dialogue works. Again, I asked: Quote If you believe without love/heart (obedience), then how are you any different from the devils? Edited May 3, 2018 by pogi 1
Anakin7 Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: If you rip a Bible in half, did you corrupt God's word from off of the face of the earth? Likewise, the Septuagint is one person(s) version of truth and certainly does not corrupt all truth from the face of the earth. If you rips Bible in half and keep both of them you have a whole Bible, well .. depends if it's a Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant Bible, and there are many more Bibles here on earth. Septuagint is one's persons version of Truth ?, many more than one person. Then there is the KJV Only room as well, but I think you mention din the past that you are not KJV Only.
Anakin7 Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 (edited) 21 minutes ago, pogi said: You answer my questions, then I will answer yours. That is how respectful dialogue works. Again, I asked: Belief in Jesus Christ is a commandment/Law which we are commanded to do 1John 3:18-24 which is in our House regarding the 1st Principles of The Gospel. Or does Jesus Believe and have Faith in Himself which is put on our account ?. Edited May 3, 2018 by Anakin7
JAHS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 14 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Does Acts 10 say "the Holy Ghost" or "the gift of the Holy Ghost"? "And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost." There's a difference between the gift of the Holy Ghost being poured out upon someone as in Acts 10 and the person actually receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. The main point I am making is that water baptism is required as described so many time in the Bible. So important it is that even Jesus allowed Himself to be baptized with water: "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him." (Matt 3:13-15)
Anakin7 Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 (edited) JAHS, True Christian/Biblica/Historical Doctrine. One Must Be Baptized In Water for one's True Salvation Soteriological Journey, Quest, Search to be on the True Road of Salvation. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited May 3, 2018 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 (edited) From my LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Archives Regarding "The Faith of Jesus" of which FormerLDS presents to us - http://www.fredbischoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/A-Brief-on-the-Faith-of-Jesus.pdf The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited May 3, 2018 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 2 hours ago, pogi said: If you believe without love/heart (obedience), then how are you any different from the devils? No different at all. Belief is belief, but there is a difference. Devils do not have a sacrifice for their sin, but mankind does.
FormerLDS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 2 hours ago, JAHS said: There's a difference between the gift of the Holy Ghost being poured out upon someone as in Acts 10 and the person actually receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. The main point I am making is that water baptism is required as described so many time in the Bible. So important it is that even Jesus allowed Himself to be baptized with water: "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him." (Matt 3:13-15) The difference is clearly between what the Bible plainly says and LDS theology. Ephesians 1:13-14 plainly says the Holy Spirit is sealed within us when we believe with no mention of baptism or laying of hands. "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
JAHS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 31 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The difference is clearly between what the Bible plainly says and LDS theology. Ephesians 1:13-14 plainly says the Holy Spirit is sealed within us when we believe with no mention of baptism or laying of hands. "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." The Bible also plainly states that baptism by water is also required. That's not just LDS theology it's what the Bible says. Our conversation is getting nowhere, just like many others where people interpret the Bible differently.
pogi Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, FormerLDS said: No different at all. Belief is belief, but there is a difference. Devils do not have a sacrifice for their sin, but mankind does. You are actually admitting that your type of belief in the savior is equivalent to a devil? So we don't need to love Jesus? We can worship Satan, act like devils, actively fight his cause, so long as we believe in him and believe that he will save us in the end? I don't think you understand the nature of belief that is required. To understand the belief that Jesus is talking about, you have to take the scriptures in context. He requires a heart/love centered belief: Gal 5:6: Quote The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (Gal 5:6 NIV) ...but faith which worketh by love (KJV) For it is only through love that we can "believe all things" (1 Corinthians 13:7) How does a love filled belief manifest? Lets see, John 14 and 15 helps us out there. From the words of Jesus himself: Quote "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing...(John 14:12)." "If you love me, keep my commands. (John 14:15). "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." (John 14:21)" "Jesus replied, Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. (John 14:23)" "Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. (John 14:24)" "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love" (John 15:10)." "You are my friends if you do what I command (John 15:14)" To suggest that love of the savior is not required is madness. We cannot believe in him and be against him and be saved (Matt 12:40; Mark 9:40). No, love is required! If we believe there will be works (John 14:12). If we love there will be obedience (John 14:15). Belief works through love (Gal 5:6; 1 Corinth 13:7). If ye are lukewarm in belief/love, then he will spew us out of his mouth (Rev 3:16). Edited May 4, 2018 by pogi 1
pogi Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 59 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The difference is clearly between what the Bible plainly says and LDS theology. Ephesians 1:13-14 plainly says the Holy Spirit is sealed within us when we believe with no mention of baptism or laying of hands. "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." You keep saying that "the Bible plains says..." Have you ever heard of hermeneutics?
Anakin7 Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 And The Holy Bible plainly says you need to be baptized in the water to be Saved - http://www.bebaptized.org The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 16 hours ago, JAHS said: The Bible also plainly states that baptism by water is also required. That's not just LDS theology it's what the Bible says. Our conversation is getting nowhere, just like many others where people interpret the Bible differently. Clearly, the topic of baptism is not the real problem. Like mopping water from the floor while the faucet is running, one most first deal with the root of the problem. Baptism in water is a good work. The topic at hand "Salvation and good works" accurately depicts the two pathways man can travel which the Savior describes in Matthew 7: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (v13-14) There are only two ways. A way that leads to destruction and a way that leads to life, and most people unknowingly travel along the way that leads to destruction. Obviously both ways promise life. If those on the broad way weren't promised eternal life they wouldn't travel that way! One way gives eternal life and one way can only make people think they have eternal life. Have you ever noticed how religions that require works for eternal life never actually give anyone eternal life? They may claim they have eternal life, but when you really study what their church teaches, eternal life can only be obtained after a lifetime of worthy behavior. Friends, which road are you on? Jesus Christ will give anyone eternal life today. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 18 hours ago, pogi said: You are actually admitting that your type of belief in the savior is equivalent to a devil? So we don't need to love Jesus? We can worship Satan, act like devils, actively fight his cause, so long as we believe in him and believe that he will save us in the end? I don't think you understand the nature of belief that is required. To understand the belief that Jesus is talking about, you have to take the scriptures in context. He requires a heart/love centered belief: Gal 5:6: You asked what the difference is in belief. There is no difference. Belief is belief. Where did I say "we don't need to love Jesus" and those other things? 18 hours ago, pogi said: Quote The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (Gal 5:6 NIV) ...but faith which worketh by love (KJV) For it is only through love that we can "believe all things" (1 Corinthians 13:7) How does a love filled belief manifest? Lets see, John 14 and 15 helps us out there. From the words of Jesus himself: Quote "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing...(John 14:12)." "If you love me, keep my commands. (John 14:15). "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." (John 14:21)" "Jesus replied, Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. (John 14:23)" "Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. (John 14:24)" "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love" (John 15:10)." "You are my friends if you do what I command (John 15:14)" To suggest that love of the savior is not required is madness. We cannot believe in him and be against him and be saved (Matt 12:40; Mark 9:40). No, love is required! If we believe there will be works (John 14:12). If we love there will be obedience (John 14:15). Belief works through love (Gal 5:6; 1 Corinth 13:7). If ye are lukewarm in belief/love, then he will spew us out of his mouth (Rev 3:16). "Faith" is the tangible side of belief. Faith is what can follow belief. If you believe it will rain (decision), then wearing a raincoat is a demonstration of that belief. You have faith that it will rain. But just because you don't wear a raincoat doesn't mean you don't believe it will rain. Christ's works are not His own, but the Father's works, and His works are attributed to us just as if we did them.
FormerLDS Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 18 hours ago, pogi said: You keep saying that "the Bible plains says..." Have you ever heard of hermeneutics? Herman who?
smac97 Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Clearly, the topic of baptism is not the real problem. Like mopping water fom the floor while the faucet is running, one most first deal with the root of the problem.r Baptism in water is a good work. And a condition for salvation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16;16) 28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Have you ever noticed how religions that require works for eternal life never actually give anyone eternal life? Nope. Haven't noticed that. 28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: They may claim they have eternal life, but when you really study what their church teaches, eternal life can only be obtained after a lifetime of worthy behavior. You are not accounting for repentance. Plenty of people fail to live "a lifetime of worthy behavior." However, "through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." (AoF 1:3) Great news, IMO. 28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Friends, which road are you on? Jesus Christ will give anyone eternal life today. OSAS has never sat well with me. With respect, I do not accept it. 28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36 This verse works quite well in the LDS paradigm. Thanks, -Smac 1
Anakin7 Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Clearly, the topic of baptism is not the real problem. Like mopping water from the floor while the faucet is running, one most first deal with the root of the problem. Baptism in water is a good work. The topic at hand "Salvation and good works" accurately depicts the two pathways man can travel which the Savior describes in Matthew 7: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (v13-14) There are only two ways. A way that leads to destruction and a way that leads to life, and most people unknowingly travel along the way that leads to destruction. Obviously both ways promise life. If those on the broad way weren't promised eternal life they wouldn't travel that way! One way gives eternal life and one way can only make people think they have eternal life. Have you ever noticed how religions that require works for eternal life never actually give anyone eternal life? They may claim they have eternal life, but when you really study what their church teaches, eternal life can only be obtained after a lifetime of worthy behavior. Friends, which road are you on? Jesus Christ will give anyone eternal life today. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36 Doesn't look like the True Christian Biblical road on the right, looks easy. Christ Jesus said it would be hard. Must strive to enter through the gates, there are no gates on either side in the above picture. I wll go the True Saint, Christian Road. Thank you for the invite Former LDS. Edited May 4, 2018 by Anakin7 1
Anakin7 Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 19 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Herman who? You are not serious are you ?.
pogi Posted May 4, 2018 Posted May 4, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Where did I say "we don't need to love Jesus" and those other things? When you said we don't need to keep the commandments of Jesus (do woks). "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them." (John 14:21)" "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing...(John 14:12)." 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Christ's works are not His own, but the Father's works, and His works are attributed to us just as if we did them. CFR. That is not what the Bible "plainly". You seriously think that you can sin your life away AND take credit for the works of Christ, as if you did them? We are still expected to do works, just as Christ was expected to do the works of the Father. "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing...(John 14:12)." It doesn't say that we will get credit for the works that he did, but that we will DO the WORKS that he did. If you do not the works of the savior, then you don't truly believe, nor do you truly love the savior, as the scriptures "plainly" state. 1
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