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Salvation and good works

theplains

By theplains
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pogi Grand Master

pogi

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

In John 15:3, Jesus Christ tells us we are made clean through his spoken word, not baptismal tub.

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

Acts 10:43 tells us that "through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."  Those who heard and believed immediately received the gift of the Holy Ghost without baptism!

That's because his words lead unto baptism and obedience!  And because "belief" equally leads to baptism and obedience!!

Do you believe the gift of the holy ghost is equivalent to eternal life?

Meerkat Experienced

Meerkat

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Again, His works are now my own - just as if I did them!

I have HIS perfection given to me.  I AM justified.  I AM sanctified.  I AM perfect because of Him in me.

Correct, as long as you DO what the Spirit tells you to do, and continue to repent when you backslide.  

The scriptures remind me it is the merciful who obtain mercy.  Would you have us believe, in spite of the many scriptures to the contrary presented here, that Jesus Christ would condemn a person for doing good (who lacked faith,) and reward a person who does evil because they once believed believe Jesus is the Savior? 

Would you agree, formerLDS, that living the pure religion of Jesus Christ will bring you to salvation?  One of His apostles, James, taught "27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."  In other words minister to the helpless, and turn from sin.  Those are actions, not mere beliefs.  They may reflect the love of Christ.  But living the pure religion requires more than belief.  We must act on what the Spirit tells us to do.  If we don't, we must repent.  Otherwise, we are, as Peter stated in 2 Peter 2:20-23:

" 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
            21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
            22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Do you follow what he is saying here?  I sincerely hope the end isn't worse than the beginning for you.  But your comments disparaging good works done by anyone other than a OSAS person like yourself, give me pause.

Edited by Meerkat
theplains Grand Master

theplains

Posted
  • Author
Posted
13 hours ago, Meerkat said:

We must act on what the Spirit tells us to do.  If we don't, we must repent.

Only those who live according to the Spirit (the sons of God/joint-heirs with Christ) can please
God. The children of the flesh cannot please Him (Romans 8:12-17).

Jim

1
Meerkat Experienced

Meerkat

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

Once again a non LDS Evangelical Christian response to imputed righteousness -  https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/esimputedrighteousness.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Thanks for the great reference.  I lock arms with any Evangelical who rightly divides the scriptures, as he has here and in other references you have presented.  He is clear thinking on this issue, and the scriptures he uses clearly show the weakness of the OSAS argument.  FormerLDS has stated in the past that he does not have time to read everything presented here.  That is, in my opinion, why we end up in circular conversations with FormerLDS ignoring our questions, and responding with new questions of his own.  Frustrating as that can be, your references make for excellent reading, and support the LDS view of conditional salvation from an Evangelical point of view.  Very refreshing.  I sincerely hope Former LDS can find the time to read your excellent link and thoughtfully consider and comment on it.  

JayneAdelle Rookie

JayneAdelle

Posted
Posted
On 4/28/2018 at 1:10 PM, theplains said:

Today's devotional by pastor Charles Price (on the topic of the Sheep and the Goats parable - Matthew 25:32)
says, "There is a day of judgment coming, but it will not be an exam on the finer details of theology. Our judgment
will be based on our works and particularly our works towards people. Our good works are not the cause of
salvation, but the effect. Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable
consequence of a life changed by Christ."

In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit salvation or are good works the evidence of salvation?  
Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does salvation (the cause) produce good works (the effect)
or do good works (the cause) produces salvation (the effect)?

Also, is the gift of eternal life (the effect) earned or granted freely by faith in Christ (the cause)?  Going back a
few months, do you recall earning a Christmas gift through your own efforts or did the giver (even a stranger)
give it to you without anything you had done?

Thanks,
Jim

I think that works can definitely be the consequence of a life changed, but there's always the "fake it till you make it" school of thought whereby you "act as if" you're changed and do the service. In so doing, you begin to understand the blessings to be given and received through service, the idea being that doing good works may be the catalyst that changes your life.

In my view, eternal life is not really a gift so much as it is an attribute of the spirit. The body can & will die, but the spirit will go on whether we want it to or not. So it's not a gift to be granted or earned, but simply the nature of that which animates us. Whether or not we enjoy our eternal life, however, pretty much depends on what we do with our physical life.

Meerkat Experienced

Meerkat

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

Meerkat and others [Including Former LDS] another response from a non LDS Christian on Imputed Righteousness - http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/impute.html 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder ,Kryptonian, Warrior

Anakin7, another excellent article.  I appreciate the article's inference that obedience is possible.  We have a duty to try-- hard-- to obey the Savior's teachings.  

Which commandment is impossible? Thou shalt have no other gods before me? That is probably the most difficult, but not impossible.  How about Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness??  Which one is too hard? The Savior said obedience is not enough.  We must, and can control our thoughts.  When we realize what manner of men and women we are, don't we work for purity?  OSAS and the doctrine of comlete imputed righteousness forever are hard for me to accept.  

2 Peter 2 says this:

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
            2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
            3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
            4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
            5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
            6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
            7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
            8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
            9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
            10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
            11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
            12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
            13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
            14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
            15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
            16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
            17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
            18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
            19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
            20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
            21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
            22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

First and Second Peter are full of this doctrine.

Edited by Meerkat
MormonMason Mentor

MormonMason

Posted
Posted (edited)
On ‎04‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 8:14 AM, FormerLDS said:

Don't feel bad about this - most LDS don't know what their church teaches about the doctrine of "eternal life".  If you ask 9 out of 10 members "Do you believe you have eternal life?" they would answer "yes".

Most just don't realize what their church really teaches.  There are those who deliberately evade that question, preferring to mislead the investigator by assuming the question is actually referring to "immortality".

According to LDS theology, NO ONE can HAVE "eternal life" during mortality.

That isn't entirely true.  Calling and election made sure is something that can happen in this life under certain circumstances.  That has been LDS teaching from the days of Joseph Smith.  He himself sealed several individuals up to eternal life, in mortality.  But I do agree that many have forgotten this or were unaware of it due to their lack of study.  You appear to have been among those.

Edited by MormonMason
MormonMason Mentor

MormonMason

Posted
Posted
On ‎04‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 11:28 AM, FormerLDS said:

Do you believe that good works are required for you to receive eternal life?

Do you believe the author of 2 Peter when he writes that one's calling and election is not sure unless one gives diligence to make it so? Or, when he lists things to do as part of that process? And how can one make his calling and election sure if it were already sure by mere belief?

Quote

 

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

(2 Peter 1:5–11)

 

Or do you believe the author of 1 Timothy?

Quote

 

17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

(1 Timothy 6:17–19)

 

Many falsely think faith alone (or others, grace alone) will bring eternal life.  But the author here speaks of eternal life as something that they may lay hold on, after doing certain things.  The Greek text, as if the above English text isn't clear enough, shows that it also is something that is contingent on the rich doing certain things.  As one will see if one carefully studies the Bible, the Bible taken as a whole teaches otherwise than that mere belief brings it about.  Faith is the beginning but not the end of salvation and exaltation.  But if one studies only the proof texts of the so-called Reformation, one might never learn any of that.

MormonMason Mentor

MormonMason

Posted
Posted
On ‎05‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 8:42 AM, FormerLDS said:

No.  I'm suggesting that people prefer to believe the Bible was mistranslated and/or corrupted because the Bible doesn't fit their church doctrine.

But it has been mistranslated at places, and portions of the texts corrupted at others.  People tend to be in denial about those to try to stick with altered texts to support their cherished doctrines based on those altered texts.

1
MormonMason Mentor

MormonMason

Posted
Posted (edited)
On ‎05‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 11:44 AM, FormerLDS said:

We could play "yes it is, no it isn't" all day long.  

You do not have an original manuscript to adequately demonstrate your point.  Like I said, I can just as easily say that the Septuagint quotes the original text, not vice versa, the Septuagint was not written before Christ, so He couldn't possibly have quoted it.

You got nothing.

Completely untrue.  The Septuagint was translated more than 200 years before Christ.  It started with the Torah and further texts were translated afterward.  But the Septuagint definitely was translated before Christ.  Anyone who has told you otherwise is lying to you.  Fragments of a form of the Septuagint were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, too.  I've seen them.  I have photos of them.  A number of them predate Christ by at least 50 years.  But you keep going into denial and claiming that Jesus could not have quoted the Septuagint because it wasn't written yet when Jesus was on earth.  That is a falsehood.  It existed before Jesus was born.  Josephus the Jewish Historian even talks about the translation of the Septuagint and the time when the Torah portion was completed.  Even he shows it occurred before Christ.  Read Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, book 12, chapter 2.  If you have a newer edition, that reference would be 12.11-118.

Did you not notice how much the same the quotes from the Septuagint are in the Book of Hebrews? I provided a few examples.  No one has the original manuscripts.  But I can make my point by showing the differences among the manuscripts, and ultimately show how the text underlying the Septuagint preserves a text that had a much older Hebrew vorlage as its source. But if the Septuagint quotes the original, well then there is a problem, isn't there? If the Septuagint preserves the original by quoting it, it still makes my point.  That which is found in the King James Version is not the original, is shorter than what the Septuagint "quotes," and still shows that the text has been altered before making its way into the King James Version.

It rather is you who have nothing.  You just don't seem to know it yet.  But if we keep going with this discussion you eventually may figure that out.

Edited by MormonMason
FormerLDS Experienced

FormerLDS

Posted
Posted
On 5/4/2018 at 5:45 PM, Eek! said:

I have no problem with your belief that you are not under condemnation. 

However claiming that you are "perfect" is unrealistic.  There is a huge gap between "not spending eternity in hell" and "perfection".  Mormonism recognizes this, which is why Mormons try to actually BECOME the same manner of man as Jesus, rather then expecting to receive an honorary degree in Perfection simply because they believe something ABOUT Jesus. 

Perfection is one of the many differences between LDS theology and what Jesus Christ plainly says.

Heavenly Father demands perfection, and Jesus provides that requirement for those who have His gift of eternal life.

It's not at all unrealistic for me to say that I have achieved the perfection required by God, because I have a Savior who was 100% capable who met that requirement for me.

Not only do I have His perfection, I have His glory, His eternal life, His sanctification, His justification, His sinlessness, His perfect obedience to all commandments, His righteousness and much, much more.

How is LDs salvation going to compare with what Jesus Christ has given me already?

On 5/4/2018 at 5:45 PM, Eek! said:

Jesus' works are not your own as if you did them.  Maybe one day you will, but not before you have BECOME the same manner of man as Jesus.

It's a long road.

Perhaps you should reconsider what you have chosen to believe about Jesus Christ, friend?

Have the courage to just think about if for one moment.  What if the works and perfection of Jesus Christ could be given to you just as if you did them?

IF that were true, how would that impact your current beliefs?    

FormerLDS Experienced

FormerLDS

Posted
Posted
On 5/4/2018 at 5:53 PM, pogi said:
On 5/4/2018 at 4:50 PM, FormerLDS said:

In John 15:3, Jesus Christ tells us we are made clean through his spoken word, not baptismal tub.

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

Acts 10:43 tells us that "through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."  Those who heard and believed immediately received the gift of the Holy Ghost without baptism!

That's because his words lead unto baptism and obedience!  And because "belief" equally leads to baptism and obedience!!

Do you believe the gift of the holy ghost is equivalent to eternal life?

The savior tells us plainly that we are clean through His word, not through works like baptism.

Again, there are so many different religions because people simply do not want to believe what Jesus Christ plainly says. 

pogi Grand Master

pogi

Posted
Posted
28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The savior tells us plainly that we are clean through His word... 

It is plain to me that you don't understand his "plain" word based on your interpretation of the parable of the two sons.  To justify the second son is utter and complete spiritual blindness.  You can join the second son all you want in your deceit, blindness, and lack of work, but I will follow Christ.  

Quote

 

28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

 

 

Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

Posted
Posted (edited)

       FormerLDS, Anakin7  - LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior [Former Methodist, Fundamentalist Independent Baptist] here. Thank you again for sharing your heartfelt concern for we LDS, in a world where many are only concerned for there self interest, gratification, glory abound, we appreciate your gesture of Love, though misguided, but thanks. We LDS as True Doctrine,Teaching,Thought, Practice, Walk, Run, Journey are clothed with The Vice Monarch, Lord Of Life, Lord, Redeemer, Savior, God, King, Master Christ Jesus Love, Mercy, Atonement and Grace By way of True Belief and Faith = pistis in Greek = allegiance, commitment, confidence, discipleship, faithfulness, fidelity, loyalty, obedience, trust to the person and work of Christ Jesus in our behalf. We believe as the ancient N.T Prophets, Apostles, Saints, Christians, that we are not truly Saved by an alien imputed righteousness of Christ Jesus or Once Saved Always Saved Salvation Soteriology. For a response to the Imputation of Christ Jesus Salvation Soteriology and once saved always saved I extend these gifts again to you - http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/impute.html  , http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/esimputedrighteousness.htm .  Responses to your views on the non importance of Baptism and what it does and means to a Child of God - http://www.bebaptized.org . For Conditional Salvation and staying in the True Grace Covenant Salvation one article - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm  . Thank you once again for sharing your thoughts, May True Grace Be with you and those you love.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment in His Blood 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited by Anakin7
FormerLDS Experienced

FormerLDS

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 5/5/2018 at 1:49 AM, Meerkat said:

Correct, as long as you DO what the Spirit tells you to do, and continue to repent when you backslide.  

When you backslide then aren't you DOING "what the Spirit tells you to do"?

To complicate your position even more (if that is even possible), specifically how does one determine when he or she is "backslide" vs "NOT backslide"?    

Hence why your "perfection" isn't anywhere near perfect and the perfection of Jesus Christ imputed to us is so essential.

Edited by FormerLDS
FormerLDS Experienced

FormerLDS

Posted
Posted
On 5/7/2018 at 1:18 AM, JayneAdelle said:

In my view, eternal life is not really a gift so much as it is an attribute of the spirit. The body can & will die, but the spirit will go on whether we want it to or not. So it's not a gift to be granted or earned, but simply the nature of that which animates us. Whether or not we enjoy our eternal life, however, pretty much depends on what we do with our physical life.

"Eternal life" is a specific place in LDS theology, and, even though proclaimed to be "the greatest of all gifts", it is 100% a reward of worthy behavior.  HUGE difference.  

"Eternal life" in LDS theology is not that which you describe.

FormerLDS Experienced

FormerLDS

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, MormonMason said:
On 4/30/2018 at 9:14 AM, FormerLDS said:

Don't feel bad about this - most LDS don't know what their church teaches about the doctrine of "eternal life".  If you ask 9 out of 10 members "Do you believe you have eternal life?" they would answer "yes".

Most just don't realize what their church really teaches.  There are those who deliberately evade that question, preferring to mislead the investigator by assuming the question is actually referring to "immortality".

According to LDS theology, NO ONE can HAVE "eternal life" during mortality.

That isn't entirely true.  Calling and election made sure is something that can happen in this life under certain circumstances.  That has been LDS teaching from the days of Joseph Smith.  He himself sealed several individuals up to eternal life, in mortality.  But I do agree that many have forgotten this or were unaware of it due to their lack of study.  You appear to have been among those.

"Calling and election made sure" is just a promise.  That's it.  Those who have that have nothing more than those who do not have it.  Satan promises everyone eternal life after mortality.  

I parted ways with the LDS because I did understand the LDS doctrine of eternal life: I didn't have it, and Jesus Christ said He's give it to me.

I had to choose who to believe. 

Only the true and living Jesus Christ GIVES eternal life to anyone who asks.

smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:
Quote

Correct, as long as you DO what the Spirit tells you to do, and continue to repent when you backslide.  

When you backslide then aren't you DOING "what the Spirit tells you to do"?

Pretty much, yes.  

8 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

To complicate your position even more (if that is even possible), specifically how does one determine when he or she is "backslide" vs "NOT backslide"?    

"Backslide" = "return to transgressing the commandments of God."

"Not Backslide" = "abstaining from transgressing the commandments of God."

8 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Hence why your "perfection" isn't anywhere near perfect

I can't speak for others, but I do not claim to be "perfect."

8 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

and the perfection of Jesus Christ imputed to us is so essential.

Agreed.  Whether we accept it, however, is another question.  As is whether we retain it.

Again, OSAS has never sat well with me.  I respect that it works for you, though.

Thanks,

-Smac

theplains Grand Master

theplains

Posted
  • Author
Posted
On 5/7/2018 at 2:18 AM, JayneAdelle said:

In my view, eternal life is not really a gift so much as it is an attribute of the spirit. 

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

Jim

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