Anakin7 Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 (edited) https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf Edited May 2, 2018 by Anakin7
MormonMason Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 On 04/29/2018 at 6:35 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Can you back that up with evidence from Hebrew and/or Greek? Sorry. Just got back to access my computer. So, here goes. You mentioned above that you think that everybody that is resurrected gets eternal life. So, the question that should be in the back of one's mind is if everybody who is resurrected gets eternal life, why doesn't the scripture come out and say that? Daniel writes: Quote וְרַבִּ֕ים מִיְּשֵׁנֵ֥י אַדְמַת־עָפָ֖ר יָקִ֑יצוּ אֵ֚לֶּה לְחַיֵּ֣י עוֹלָ֔ם וְאֵ֥לֶּה לַחֲרָפ֖וֹת לְדִרְא֥וֹן עוֹלָֽם׃ "And many of those sleeping in the dust of the ground shall rise, these to life eternal, and those to shame and everlasting contempt." Or, as the King James Version has it "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Take a look at the Greek of the Septuagint for yourself and notice the dichotomy using the μὲν … δὲ construction. On the one hand, those will receive eternal life but on the other hand, others will receive things quite different. If everybody gets eternal life, there is no place for the use of "some" or "these/those" dichotomy to be set up by the writer. There is no "some" or "these" if "all" get eternal life. Christ himself too sets up a dichotomy between those who would receive eternal life and those who would receive everlasting damnation or judgment, all while still rising in the resurrection, as also a distinction between those who would receive life and those who would be condemned to "eternal fire". Don't they all receive life if all are raised from the dead? Why the dichotomy? Why the distinction? The reason is because eternal life is not a synonym for "living forever" in relation to time. I could multiply passages that state the same things and set up similar dichotomies. Recent scholarship also takes into consideration the use of "eternal" or "everlasting" in the term "eternal life." Following are a couple samples of such for your consideration. Louw and Nida, 1989, give us the following: Quote 67.96 ἀΐδιος, ον ; αἰώνιος, ον: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - 'eternal.' ἀΐδιος: ἥτε ἀΐδιος αὐτοῦ δύναμις καὶ θειότης 'his eternal power and divine nature' Ro 1.20. αἰώνιος: βληθῆναι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον 'be thrown into the eternal fire' Mt 18.8; τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ 'of the eternal God' Ro 16.26. The most frequent use of αἰώνιος in the NT is with ζωή 'life,' for example, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον 'so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life' Jn 3.15. In combination with ζωή there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αἰώνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αἰώνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates 'eternal life' as simply 'never dying,' there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that 'never dying' refers only to physical existence rather than to 'spiritual death.' Accordingly, some translators have rendered 'eternal life' as 'unending real life,' so as to introduce a qualitative distinction. Newman 1993, 2010, gives us the following: Quote αἰώνιος , ον eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time Here is the point of this. It more refers to quality rather than time in such a phrase as "eternal life". It is referring to the quality or the kind of life. It uses a term that relates to divine and supernatural attributes. Thus, it is referring to the quality or kind of life that will come to the righteous. In any case, there is a distinction between the quality or the kind of life for those who receive eternal life and those who do not. Multiple texts of scripture make clear that not everybody gets eternal life even though they rise from the dead. "Eternal life" does not speak of the length of time that one lives. It refers to the divine quality of life that the righteous inherit. The early Christian writers understood this, which is why they so often speak of our living or receiving "the life of God" and like sayings relating to eternal life. That's all I have time for at the moment but I could definitely expand this more. 1
Anakin7 Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 FormerLDS any thoughts on Mormon Masons post above ?. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 Gotta leave for several hours to go to work with my evangelical friends now, everyone have a True Grace Empowered day. Will post more when time allows. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
pogi Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I'll try to paraphrase it like I wish someone had done for me. There are hundreds of commandments in the Old Testament, and people were trying to obey all of them, thinking they would somehow improve their odds of obtaining eternal life. Because mankind was so utterly incapable of obeying the commandments to the level required by God (i.e. perfection), God made a new covenant with man. Essentially, He said "Because you're completely incapable, I'll come to earth and obey the commandments perfectly FOR YOU - the way that I require - and instead of mankind having to obey all of them with perfection, I'll give him only one commandment to obey. All of those who choose to obey that one single commandment, I will attribute my perfection to them and, to me (God speaking), it will be just as if you have obeyed all of the commandments with perfection. They are washed clean and sinless within because I will come into them and live within them." [again, not very good, but a paraphrase] The new covenant God gave is "believe" that the Christ's atonement alone will be enough for eternal life. All mankind today is either trying to somehow earn eternal life through worthy behavior, or they have it because Jesus Christ has given it to them through his new covenant with man. Jesus Christ said "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life". Belief is the only acceptable criteria for His gift. I had to admit that, good as I thought I was, my way was completely unacceptable and corrupted and believe that His way was the only way to the Father. There's nothing in that verse about believing in the "trinity", turning over a new leaf, starting something, stopping something, joining a new church or any other requirement. Stay in your church - where you go on Sunday is completely irrelevant. That didn't really answer my question. Here is what I asked: Quote You are unique in that belief. Most protestant/evangelists will tell me that I don't believe in the "real" Jesus if I believe in the Mormon Jesus, and therefore cannot be saved until I believe in the real Jesus of the trinity. You are telling me that they are wrong? Do I just have to believe in his name to be saved? What is the minimal qualification for belief to be saved? You list here two qualifications. 1) belief in Jesus...check! and 2) a belief that Christ's atonement alone will be enough for eternal life...check! I guess I am saved! What I am asking is if you are telling me that your fellow protestants are wrong in condemning me for my belief in my version of Jesus (non-trinitarian)? Question for you though. Where is the new covenant written? On stone (like the old covenant), or something else...? Hint, it rhymes with 'dart'. Edited May 2, 2018 by pogi 2
FormerLDS Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 15 minutes ago, pogi said: You list here two qualifications. 1) belief in Jesus...check! and 2) a belief that Christ's atonement alone will be enough for eternal life...check! I guess I am saved! There are false gospels, false christs, false spirits all designed to make you feel as if you can put a check in the box. Only the true Jesus Christ gives eternal life today. I guess the real question remains, do you have eternal life? 17 minutes ago, pogi said: What I am asking is if you are telling me that your fellow protestants are wrong in condemning me for my belief in my version of Jesus (non-trinitarian)? Question for you though. Where is the new covenant written? On stone (like the old covenant), or something else...? Hint, it rhymes with 'dart'. I'm not a protestant (unless you're referring to protesting LDS theology), so I'm guessing they would disagree with my point of view. Regardless, it's the object of one's belief that is important. I'm sure they would agree with that. Jesus Christ is the new covenant between God and man. Isaiah 42:6 tells us this "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles". Again, those who have the Son have eternal life. Those who do not have the Son do not have eternal life. Do you have eternal life?
Robert F. Smith Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 44 minutes ago, pogi said: ........................................... You list here two qualifications. 1) belief in Jesus...check! and 2) a belief that Christ's atonement alone will be enough for eternal life...check! I guess I am saved! What I am asking is if you are telling me that your fellow protestants are wrong in condemning me for my belief in my version of Jesus (non-trinitarian)? Question for you though. Where is the new covenant written? On stone (like the old covenant), or something else...? Hint, it rhymes with 'dart'. Your point is well taken, pogi. For even the Muslims believe in Jesus. He is in the Holy Qur'an. What is the content of that belief? And what does belief entail? James seemed to think that it had something to do with your actions inevitably demonstrating that belief. You can't have one without the other. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 4 hours ago, MormonMason said: ............................................ "And many of those sleeping in the dust of the ground shall rise, these to life eternal, and those to shame and everlasting contempt." Or, as the King James Version has it "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." ..................... ..................... eternal life is not a synonym for "living forever" in relation to time. .................................... Here is the point of this. It more refers to quality rather than time in such a phrase as "eternal life". It is referring to the quality or the kind of life. It uses a term that relates to divine and supernatural attributes. Thus, it is referring to the quality or kind of life that will come to the righteous. In any case, there is a distinction between the quality or the kind of life for those who receive eternal life and those who do not. Multiple texts of scripture make clear that not everybody gets eternal life even though they rise from the dead. "Eternal life" does not speak of the length of time that one lives. It refers to the divine quality of life that the righteous inherit. The early Christian writers understood this, which is why they so often speak of our living or receiving "the life of God" and like sayings relating to eternal life. .......................................... I am glad to see that we agree. I had reacted to your statement ""That "eternal life" is merely synonymous with "living forever" is a misnomer. Eternal life is the kind of life that God lives. Not all who are resurrected will receive it." FormerLDS had claimed that those not receiving eternal life (here and now) would not live forever. That there would be an end to their existence, which is not true at all. Of course he denies the premortal existence, which denies the coeternal nature of all spirits -- that their spark of existence (intelligence) was not created and cannot be destroyed. 1
pogi Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: There are false gospels, false christs, false spirits all designed to make you feel as if you can put a check in the box. Only the true Jesus Christ gives eternal life today. I thought you said I could be saved while believing in the Mormon Jesus. Are you changing your mind now? 10 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: I guess the real question remains, do you have eternal life? According to the qualifications you listed...yes. 10 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: I'm not a protestant What are you? 11 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Jesus Christ is the new covenant between God and man. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant (Hebrews 9:5), he is not the new covenant itself. The new covenant was foretold in the old testament. It will be written in our hearts. Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Ezekial 36:26-28. Evidence of the new covenant will be this: Quote And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekial 26-37) Yep...works.
FormerLDS Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Your point is well taken, pogi. For even the Muslims believe in Jesus. He is in the Holy Qur'an. What is the content of that belief? And what does belief entail? James seemed to think that it had something to do with your actions inevitably demonstrating that belief. You can't have one without the other. There are only two roads. The broad road and the narrow road. The broad road is the road of works and personal worthiness in order to obtain eternal life after death. Being the broad road, 99% of the world's religions require some form of works for eternal life. The Muslims for example, like Mormons, believe salvation comes to those who are worthy. According to Islam, Mohammad brought God's laws and commandments to men through the Koran. Accordingly, man must strive to satisfy God's requirements and win his approval by obedience in order to gain eternal life. They recite prayers each day, give money to charity, go on pilgrimages, attend services, visit shrines and many other requirements in order to merit favor and balance the scales with Allah, their God. The philosophy of Jesus Christ was radically different. He offered eternal life right up front to anyone who asked Him for it. Prostitutes on the street corner, beggars, thieves, drunkards even tax collectors (someone we can all relate). That which could only be obtained in the most sacred places by a select few of the highest caliber was handed out with no qualification or merit whatsoever. Regarding the comment in James, man's faith cannot save anyone. Man's faith can die. But the faith of Jesus Christ (2:1) is not like our faith. His faith cannot die and will save anyone who believes.
FormerLDS Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 4 hours ago, Anakin7 said: FormerLDS any thoughts on Mormon Masons post above ?. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I personally do not believe the Septuagint was used by Jesus Christ or the Apostles. I believe it was a corrupt text from Alexandria Egypt. Hence, why I do not believe in the apocrypha.
Meerkat Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 (edited) Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I believe Jesus said "17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17 I interpret that statement to mean that faith, belief, knowledge of God and ultimately Salvation may begin with obedience-- good works. Yes, I agree with Jim that conversion to Jesus Christ should result in good works. By that, I believe that faith resulting in good works will also result in salvation. My Baptist neighbor tells me a person who believes in Christ but has no good works is Saved. But a person who has good works, but has not yet obtained faith in the Savior is damned. His explanation ignores, in my opinion, the many scriptures that confirm the requirement of good works: 18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works... 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." Believing God Plus Works = Imputation unto a person for righteousness, or Justification. Faith without works is dead. "24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Those verses in James 2 are significant, and are to be ignored at our peril, in my opinion. Ephesians 2:9-10 state "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. I have never heard any who quote the above scripture include verse 10, which states: "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." I see nowhere in that statement that gives us a pass to salvation without good works. I don't believe conversion to Jesus Christ can exist without a corresponding manifestation of good works. I also believe a person manifesting good works without conscious faith in Jesus Christ can be worshipping God unaware, and may qualify for salvation. We cannot base our faith only on a few verses from the Apostle Paul. He provided many verses that, when removed from context, can imply salvation without works. The Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 3:"13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." And this in 1 Peter 1: "15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:" "Be ye holy for I am holy" implies the requirement of holiness, which is by definition, good works, in my opinion. We should not build our religion primarily on the teachings of Paul. We must look at the other scriptures as well for actual meaning and context, in my opinion. Edited May 3, 2018 by Meerkat 2
Anakin7 Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I personally do not believe the Septuagint was used by Jesus Christ or the Apostles. I believe it was a corrupt text from Alexandria Egypt. Hence, why I do not believe in the apocrypha. Yes but he is reading the text in the original languages and understanding. Some do believe Jesus was reading from the Septuagint. So if there is corruption then God did not preserve all the anchient Biblical manuscripts. But as you are entitled to you opinion.
Meerkat Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: That which could only be obtained in the most sacred places by a select few of the highest caliber was handed out with no qualification or merit whatsoever. "...Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." What, in the context of the scriptures, does "repent" mean? The Lord said in Ezekiel 15:6 " Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations." Here is another one from Ezekiel18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin." Those two imply that repentance means turning from works of evil to righteousness, do they not? Now, add the context of Jesus speaking in Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." To say that "That which could only be obtained in the most sacred places by a select few of the highest caliber was handed out with no qualification or merit whatsoever" is to ignore the requirement of repentance, "turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin." Everyone, except those born without the law, are subject to the same requirements. That means those high, low and in between. Jesus does not give salvation without qualification. Paul may be confusing on that point. But as I see it, the scriptures are quite clear, when taken as a whole. Edited May 2, 2018 by Meerkat 1
JAHS Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 9 hours ago, FormerLDS said: You read these passages with pre-conceived LDS interpretation which changes what you are reading. For example, if I told you to "jump for joy", would you jump because you already have joy or would you jump in order to get joy? Both. And you are reading selective passages with your preconceived interpretation. The baptism scriptures don't need any preconceived interpretation. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" No interpretation needed for that one, It is quite clear. 1
MormonMason Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I personally do not believe the Septuagint was used by Jesus Christ or the Apostles. I believe it was a corrupt text from Alexandria Egypt. Hence, why I do not believe in the apocrypha. The Dead Sea Scrolls are not from Alexandria, and they agree with the Septuagint in quite a number of places. But, all you need to do to see that a great many quotes from the Old Testament come directly out of the Septuagint is to look at the Septuagint and compare with the quotes in the New Testament. Quite a number of them are verbatim or near verbatim. New Testament writers quoted the Septuagint, and the only two kinds of people who deny it are those who live in denial and those who are unaware. Why not enlighten yourself? You don't even have to know Greek to do it. You can count letters and notice how many of them are identical in identical order. It is better if you can read Greek, though. I'll start you off with a few examples. Wish we could do tables here. It would be a lot easier to demonstrate correspondences. I'll start with Heb. 1:5. The quotes I have set in bold. Quote Τίνι γὰρ εἶπέν ποτε τῶν ἀγγέλων· υἱός μου εἶ σύ, ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε; καὶ πάλιν· ἐγὼ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ εἰς πατέρα, καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι εἰς υἱόν; The Greek text contains two quotes from the Septuagint. The quotes come right out of Ps. 2:7 and 2 Sam. 7:14 in the Septuagint. I put these texts in order of their appearance below. Quote διαγγέλλων τὸ πρόσταγμα κυρίου κύριος εἶπεν πρός με υἱός μου εἶ σύ ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε Notice the identical wording in the bolded text, with the identical word order? Quote ἐγὼ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ εἰς πατέρα καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι εἰς υἱόν καὶ ἐὰν ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀδικία αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐλέγξω αὐτὸν ἐν ῥάβδῳ ἀνδρῶν καὶ ἐν ἁφαῖς υἱῶν ἀνθρώπων Notice the same here? How about one more for the road. This one is quoted by the author of Matthew. It is a quote from Isa. 7:14. First, Isaiah. Quote διὰ τοῦτο δώσει κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Εμμανουηλ Now for Matt. 1:23. I again bold the Septuagint quotation. Quote ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσουσιν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἐμμανουήλ, ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον μεθ᾽ ἡμῶν ὁ θεός. Notice again the virtually identical wording in the identical word order. The only difference between the two texts is a manuscript variant, the difference in meaning being "you" and "they". Some manuscripts read identically in every word. I could go on and on like this all day (if I had the time). No serious scholar, and no one who actually has read the Septuagint would make such as claim as you have that the apostles did not use the Septuagint. I did not express my opinion above. I stated what I have seen with my own eyes in the texts and manuscripts. And so it is with the corruptions, too. I have seen them with my own eyes. The text has become corrupted in places. Edited May 3, 2018 by MormonMason Fixed weird formatting issues. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 4 hours ago, FormerLDS said: There are only two roads. The broad road and the narrow road. The broad road is the road of works and personal worthiness in order to obtain eternal life after death. Being the broad road, 99% of the world's religions require some form of works for eternal life. The Muslims for example, like Mormons, believe salvation comes to those who are worthy. According to Islam, Mohammad brought God's laws and commandments to men through the Koran. Accordingly, man must strive to satisfy God's requirements and win his approval by obedience in order to gain eternal life. They recite prayers each day, give money to charity, go on pilgrimages, attend services, visit shrines and many other requirements in order to merit favor and balance the scales with Allah, their God. The philosophy of Jesus Christ was radically different. He offered eternal life right up front to anyone who asked Him for it. Prostitutes on the street corner, beggars, thieves, drunkards even tax collectors (someone we can all relate). That which could only be obtained in the most sacred places by a select few of the highest caliber was handed out with no qualification or merit whatsoever. Regarding the comment in James, man's faith cannot save anyone. Man's faith can die. But the faith of Jesus Christ (2:1) is not like our faith. His faith cannot die and will save anyone who believes. Yes, let God be true, but, as James the Brother of Jesus insists, "faith without works is as dead as a body without a soul" (Jas 2:26). He adds, "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works" (Jas 2:18). Confusing cause and effect doesn't help clarify the matter, but arguing that human belief is the key only restates what James has said -- because belief is faith. 2
pogi Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, FormerLDS said: There are only two roads. The broad road and the narrow road. The broad road is the road of works and personal worthiness in order to obtain eternal life after death. Being the broad road, 99% of the world's religions require some form of works for eternal life. The Muslims for example, like Mormons, believe salvation comes to those who are worthy. According to Islam, Mohammad brought God's laws and commandments to men through the Koran. Accordingly, man must strive to satisfy God's requirements and win his approval by obedience in order to gain eternal life. They recite prayers each day, give money to charity, go on pilgrimages, attend services, visit shrines and many other requirements in order to merit favor and balance the scales with Allah, their God. The philosophy of Jesus Christ was radically different. He offered eternal life right up front to anyone who asked Him for it. Prostitutes on the street corner, beggars, thieves, drunkards even tax collectors (someone we can all relate). That which could only be obtained in the most sacred places by a select few of the highest caliber was handed out with no qualification or merit whatsoever. Regarding the comment in James, man's faith cannot save anyone. Man's faith can die. But the faith of Jesus Christ (2:1) is not like our faith. His faith cannot die and will save anyone who believes. You act like good works are evil. Good works are simply a manifestation of our belief in Jesus Christ. So, why can’t you simply accept that we meet all the criteria you list and leave us alone. Our works do not save us (no one is arguing that). I do good works because I don’t just believe in Jesus, but I believe him too. When he said, “if ye love me, keep my commandments”, I believe that. It is not enough to just believe in him (even the devils do that), but the belief he requires is centered and anchored in love for him. We believe him with our hearts, not just our heads (as the devils do). If you believe without love/heart (obedience), then how are you any different from the devils? Edited May 3, 2018 by pogi 2
Anakin7 Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 (edited) Found this in my LDS Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son of Thunder, Kryptonian Warrior Archives regarding what one of the Protestant Daddy's/Fathers of The Protestant Reformation [Martin Luther] said about True Faith and Works which are close to Joseph Smith and the True Teachings of the LDS Church/Faith. This is a must read -http://www.14lds.com/oldsite/luther.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment Robe in His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited May 3, 2018 by Anakin7
RevTestament Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 10 hours ago, pogi said: That didn't really answer my question. Here is what I asked: You list here two qualifications. 1) belief in Jesus...check! and 2) a belief that Christ's atonement alone will be enough for eternal life...check! I guess I am saved! What I am asking is if you are telling me that your fellow protestants are wrong in condemning me for my belief in my version of Jesus (non-trinitarian)? Question for you though. Where is the new covenant written? On stone (like the old covenant), or something else...? Hint, it rhymes with 'dart'. Must be....fart? Sorry, couldn't help the irreverence... But I totally agree with you. If you have the covenant written in your heart, you are saved as far as the gospel is concerned because you will not do evil. Paul speaks in a type of figurative speech moving the kingdom of God into the present... into your heart. Nevertheless, we remain imperfect and continue to stand in need of repentance from time to time... even the greatest among us. Paul makes this clear by saying we still must watch for sin. Jesus too made clear that sin lieth at the door, and Satan is always ready to receive the sinner. These Christians who literally believe they cannot sin are following an interpretation of men... not Spirit. 2
FormerLDS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 17 hours ago, Meerkat said: Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I believe Jesus said "17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17 I interpret that statement to mean that faith, belief, knowledge of God and ultimately Salvation may begin with obedience-- good works. Yes, I agree with Jim that conversion to Jesus Christ should result in good works. By that, I believe that faith resulting in good works will also result in salvation. My Baptist neighbor tells me a person who believes in Christ but has no good works is Saved. But a person who has good works, but has not yet obtained faith in the Savior is damned. His explanation ignores, in my opinion, the many scriptures that confirm the requirement of good works: 18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works... 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." Believing God Plus Works = Imputation unto a person for righteousness, or Justification. Faith without works is dead. "24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Those verses in James 2 are significant, and are to be ignored at our peril, in my opinion. Ephesians 2:9-10 state "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. I have never heard any who quote the above scripture include verse 10, which states: "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." I see nowhere in that statement that gives us a pass to salvation without good works. I don't believe conversion to Jesus Christ can exist without a corresponding manifestation of good works. I also believe a person manifesting good works without conscious faith in Jesus Christ can be worshipping God unaware, and may qualify for salvation. We cannot base our faith only on a few verses from the Apostle Paul. He provided many verses that, when removed from context, can imply salvation without works. The Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 3:"13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." And this in 1 Peter 1: "15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:" "Be ye holy for I am holy" implies the requirement of holiness, which is by definition, good works, in my opinion. We should not build our religion primarily on the teachings of Paul. We must look at the other scriptures as well for actual meaning and context, in my opinion. For clarity, according to the Bible, GOOD WORKS ARE REQUIRED FOR ETERNAL LIFE. Where we differ is whose good works will obtain that eternal life and that is what James 2 defines. "Faith" = "good works". You can say that you have faith, but if you have no works, then you have no faith. But again, as James explains, whose "faith" saves - man's faith or the faith of Jesus Christ? I have eternal life because I have the faith of Jesus Christ - HIS WORKS - attributed to me as a free gift just as if I obeyed all of the commandments with perfection. Man's faith is his sinful and selfish works. The faith of Jesus Christ is His perfect work. I am not saved by my faith, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Consider these passages which help illustrate: "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith ofJesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference" Romans 3:22 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." Galatians 3:22 "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" Philippians 3:9 "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 3:15 We can only be saved through HIS faith (works), not OUR faith (works).
FormerLDS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 17 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Yes but he is reading the text in the original languages and understanding. Some do believe Jesus was reading from the Septuagint. So if there is corruption then God did not preserve all the anchient Biblical manuscripts. But as you are entitled to you opinion. If you rip a Bible in half, did you corrupt God's word from off of the face of the earth? Likewise, the Septuagint is one person(s) version of truth and certainly does not corrupt all truth from the face of the earth.
pogi Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 10 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: I am not saved by my faith, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Right, you are not saved by your faith, but you are saved for your faith/belief. Isn't that your claim?
FormerLDS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 16 hours ago, Meerkat said: "...Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." What, in the context of the scriptures, does "repent" mean? The Lord said in Ezekiel 15:6 " Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations." Here is another one from Ezekiel18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin." Those two imply that repentance means turning from works of evil to righteousness, do they not? Now, add the context of Jesus speaking in Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." To say that "That which could only be obtained in the most sacred places by a select few of the highest caliber was handed out with no qualification or merit whatsoever" is to ignore the requirement of repentance, "turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin." Everyone, except those born without the law, are subject to the same requirements. That means those high, low and in between. Jesus does not give salvation without qualification. Paul may be confusing on that point. But as I see it, the scriptures are quite clear, when taken as a whole. The savior tells us to repent and believe. What must one repent of in order to believe?
JAHS Posted May 3, 2018 Posted May 3, 2018 57 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: I have eternal life because I have the faith of Jesus Christ - HIS WORKS - attributed to me as a free gift just as if I obeyed all of the commandments with perfection. Man's faith is his sinful and selfish works. The faith of Jesus Christ is His perfect work. "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20: 12) Judged according to "their" works; not the works of Jesus. So the works I do in this life will be important when I am judged. 1
Recommended Posts