FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, pogi said: I am not concerned about God being God. I am concerned about the qualifications you put on salvation. You state that one has to believe not just in the name of Jesus Christ, but in the trinity in order to be saved. Some peoples have no evidence of trinitarian beliefs being taught to them from people or heaven, or otherwise. Therefore they can't be saved according to you. All I can say, I believe there is a moment in every single person's mortal life where God will reveal Himself to that person in such a way that they can and will make a decision to believe or not to believe in Him. He's the judge, not me. If He says something, let Him be the one to explain it.
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: Worthy behavior keeps you in True Grace not to earn it. What behavior are you doing that you feel is "worthy" in His eyes? I would argue that He views that behavior the way we view a dirty diaper.
RevTestament Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 Just now, FormerLDS said: Well of course you feel that I am misrepresenting the scriptures. If what I am telling you is true, then LDS theology is a Satanic deception. But according to you His truth is evident, and your good work in trying to teach me is not needed. So why are you here? And who really cares if I receive eternal life before or after I die? If LDS do indeed believe that we gain eternal life only after we die, does that mean we are going to hell? Why would Satan care? Either way we are saved, and gain eternal life. You are simply here to save me from some inconsequential misbelief. However, if you are wrong, then we are helping to save others from hell, while you are trying to stop that work. Quote My goal is to be that person that facilitates your decision to believe what Jesus Christ says in His word about His free gift of eternal life before you leave this world. That's it. Ok. Great. I believe it. Your work is done. Quote All of your worthy behavior isn't going to get you one inch closer to eternal life. Not now and certainly not after you die. Then you can leave the forum now. No need for "worthy behavior." However, you see, your interpretation is based upon a singular interpretation of a few verses in Paul. Unfortunately for you, you seem to have chosen to wear blinders when it comes to reading the rest of the scriptures which tell us we will be judged according to our works. This is especially bad if like you one believes that this judgement merely means one is saved or not. I don't believe that interpretation, however. I believe some will be His judges, and some will not. Why does the Father's house have many rooms and not just one, big one? For you it is one big room which says "saved." Well, it's nice to be saved from Hell, but the scriptures tell me there is more that you are missing. I'll choose to believe them over you.
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, RevTestament said: But according to you His truth is evident, and your good work in trying to teach me is not needed. So why are you here? And who really cares if I receive eternal life before or after I die? If LDS do indeed believe that we gain eternal life only after we die, does that mean we are going to hell? Why would Satan care? Either way we are saved, and gain eternal life. You are simply here to save me from some inconsequential misbelief. However, if you are wrong, then we are helping to save others from hell, while you are trying to stop that work. In LDS theology, if you choose not to believe then you're still going to be "saved", but I do not believe that is what happens. The rejected of the savior in Matthew 7 and 25 did not get a second chance because they left this earth without eternal life. 7 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Then you can leave the forum now. No need for "worthy behavior." However, you see, your interpretation is based upon a singular interpretation of a few verses in Paul. Unfortunately for you, you seem to have chosen to wear blinders when it comes to reading the rest of the scriptures which tell us we will be judged according to our works. This is especially bad if like you one believes that this judgement merely means one is saved or not. I don't believe that interpretation, however. I believe some will be His judges, and some will not. Why does the Father's house have many rooms and not just one, big one? For you it is one big room which says "saved." Well, it's nice to be saved from Hell, but the scriptures tell me there is more that you are missing. I'll choose to believe them over you. I've never said that I won't be judged according to my works. Perhaps this graph will better illustrate how both groups will be judged according to works.
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 20 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: All I can say, I believe there is a moment in every single person's mortal life where God will reveal Himself to that person in such a way that they can and will make a decision to believe or not to believe in Him. He's the judge, not me. If He says something, let Him be the one to explain it. So you are saying that you don't have to believe in the trinity to be saved? There is another mysterious way to believe in him? Quote He's the judge, not me. Really? You could have fooled me! 2
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 11 minutes ago, pogi said: So you are saying that you don't have to believe in the trinity to be saved? There is another mysterious way to believe in him? Really? You could have fooled me! If you haven't figured it out yet, the message is that you must receive His free gift of eternal life to be "saved". Anything else is eternal damnation.
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 1 minute ago, FormerLDS said: If you haven't figured it out yet, the message is that you must receive His free gift of eternal life to be "saved". Anything else is eternal damnation. So I can receive the free gift and be saved as a Mormon, without believing in the trinity?
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 17 minutes ago, pogi said: So I can receive the free gift and be saved as a Mormon, without believing in the trinity? Of course. When the savior came to me I was a faithful member. I didn't believe in the trinity and I didn't quit my callings even after I accepted His gift. And what you believe about who God is and how he exists will change as you ask Him to reveal Himself through His word. It all starts when you receive His new life within you through belief in His word - eternal life.
Anakin7 Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: What behavior are you doing that you feel is "worthy" in His eyes? I would argue that He views that behavior the way we view a dirty diaper. A True Grace empowered Faith that produces treasures layed up for me in the Heavenly realm. Out of context quote from Bible regarding dirty diaper.
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: A True Grace empowered Faith that produces treasures layed up for me in the Heavenly realm. Out of context quote from Bible regarding dirty diaper. Like what? Specifically what are you doing that you think God would consider "worthy"?
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Of course. When the savior came to me I was a faithful member. I didn't believe in the trinity and I didn't quit my callings even after I accepted His gift. And what you believe about who God is and how he exists will change as you ask Him to reveal Himself through His word. It all starts when you receive His new life within you through belief in His word - eternal life. You are unique in that belief. Most protestant/evangelists will tell me that I don't believe in the "real" Jesus if I believe in the Mormon Jesus, and therefore cannot be saved until I believe in the real Jesus of the trinity. You are telling me that they are wrong? Do I just have to believe in his name to be saved? What is the minimal qualification for belief to be saved? Edited May 1, 2018 by pogi
Anakin7 Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Like what? Specifically what are you doing that you think God would consider "worthy"? Grace empowered Labors of Love that serve God and my fellow man, not a self rightiousness but to Him who I Love. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf Edited May 2, 2018 by Anakin7
LittleNipper Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, pogi said: No, these uncontacted people of the Amazon are nothing like the eunuch who was reading the words of Isaiah when Philip found him. They don't have the Bible! They don't live around other Christians! They don't speak a language that the rest of civilization even understands! How is that even remotely the same? How many Christians were there at the time of Philip? Because this eunuch was contacted by Philip, are you suggesting that Philip and his fellow Christians were able to contact every single person on planet earth through their missionary efforts to teach them about Jesus? What are you talking about? You think that ship wrecked Christians taught the gospel to the pre-Columbian inhabitants of America? Serious? Wow...condemning me and the Jews all in one blow! Your self-righteous, superficial judgment, and quickness to condemn an entire people to hell is astounding. You don't see my heart, yet you pretend to know it. How GOD deals with them is not up to YOU! The job of the Christian is to spread the GOSPEL message among those he or she comes in contact with (THE LIVING) and not fret about individuals he or she knows nothing about. The eternity of such individuals is in the hands of GOD, and GOD alone sifts their hearts. Everything occurs at GOD's perfect timing. Do you believe Jesus actually visited pre-columbian inhabitants of America? What's the difference? Jesus did condemn the Jews for their adding to LAW, and distorting the LAW, and corrupting the LAW to suit THEIR wants. But HIS biggest condemnation was because they denied HIM. Edited May 2, 2018 by LittleNipper
pogi Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 26 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: How GOD deals with them is not up to YOU! I am not the one condemning people to hell. 28 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: The eternity of such individuals is in the hands of GOD, and GOD alone sifts their hearts. Everything occurs at GOD's perfect timing. Are you saying that these people might be saved, even without the opportunity to learn of Jesus? 33 minutes ago, LittleNipper said: Jesus did condemn the Jews for their adding to LAW, and distorting the LAW, and corrupting the LAW to suit THEIR wants. But HIS biggest condemnation was because they denied HIM. He did not condemn them to hell. He criticized certain scribes and Pharisees, not the entire Jewish people. Your universal condemnation is akin to Jewish deicide. I am not impressed.
JAHS Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 11 hours ago, FormerLDS said: How do the heavens declare the glory of God? How does the glorious grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to salvation appear to all mankind? There are many things about God that we simply do not understand or have the ability to comprehend. Frankly, it's not my job to understand how God decides to operate His business, but I do believe that if He tells us something in His word, then He is capable of doing what He says. We can't understand everything but there are many things He tells us in His Word that do help us understand and comprehend his work, but you choose to ignore them. For example the doctrine of baptism: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16: 16) These are His words and doctrine that have been explained to us; easy enough for us to understand and comprehend, We must be baptized to be saved. How can everyone who lived on the earth be saved by baptism if millions never had the chance to even read the Bible? And don't tell me this is something we can't comprehend because this doctrine is clearly taught many times in the Bible; easily understood. Why would you think baptism is not necessary?
LittleNipper Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, pogi said: I am not the one condemning people to hell. Are you saying that these people might be saved, even without the opportunity to learn of Jesus? He did not condemn them to hell. He criticized certain scribes and Pharisees, not the entire Jewish people. Your universal condemnation is akin to Jewish deicide. I am not impressed. The church I attend is very involved in mission work. We have missionaries in Europe, South America, Africa, China, and Japan ---- as well as areas of the US. I'm certainly not able to send anyone to hell. People who end up in hell have been condemned already --- according to the Bible. Of course Jesus was not criticizing all the jewish people nor the samaritans for that matter. Jesus condemned FALSE teachers, just like HE condemns them today. Go ye into all the world and preach the GOSPEL. John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's ONE and ONLY Son. Edited May 2, 2018 by LittleNipper
Anakin7 Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 16 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Grace empowered Labors of Love that serve God and my fellow man, not a self rightiousness but to Him who I Love. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf
Anakin7 Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 (edited) Repost for FormerLDS, link now working - https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited May 2, 2018 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, LittleNipper said: The church I attend is very involved in mission work. We have missionaries in Europe, South America, Africa, China, and Japan ---- as well as areas of the US. I'm certainly not able to send anyone to hell. People who end up in hell have been condemned already --- according to the Bible. Of course Jesus was not criticizing all the jewish people nor the samaritans for that matter. Jesus condemned FALSE teachers, just like HE condemns them today. Go ye into all the world and preach the GOSPEL. John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's ONE and ONLY Son. The LDS Evangelical In Me ! - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm Edited May 2, 2018 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 16 hours ago, pogi said: You are unique in that belief. Most protestant/evangelists will tell me that I don't believe in the "real" Jesus if I believe in the Mormon Jesus, and therefore cannot be saved until I believe in the real Jesus of the trinity. You are telling me that they are wrong? Do I just have to believe in his name to be saved? What is the minimal qualification for belief to be saved? I'll try to paraphrase it like I wish someone had done for me. There are hundreds of commandments in the Old Testament, and people were trying to obey all of them, thinking they would somehow improve their odds of obtaining eternal life. Because mankind was so utterly incapable of obeying the commandments to the level required by God (i.e. perfection), God made a new covenant with man. Essentially, He said "Because you're completely incapable, I'll come to earth and obey the commandments perfectly FOR YOU - the way that I require - and instead of mankind having to obey all of them with perfection, I'll give him only one commandment to obey. All of those who choose to obey that one single commandment, I will attribute my perfection to them and, to me (God speaking), it will be just as if you have obeyed all of the commandments with perfection. They are washed clean and sinless within because I will come into them and live within them." [again, not very good, but a paraphrase] The new covenant God gave is "believe" that the Christ's atonement alone will be enough for eternal life. All mankind today is either trying to somehow earn eternal life through worthy behavior, or they have it because Jesus Christ has given it to them through his new covenant with man. Jesus Christ said "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life". Belief is the only acceptable criteria for His gift. I had to admit that, good as I thought I was, my way was completely unacceptable and corrupted and believe that His way was the only way to the Father. There's nothing in that verse about believing in the "trinity", turning over a new leaf, starting something, stopping something, joining a new church or any other requirement. Stay in your church - where you go on Sunday is completely irrelevant.
FormerLDS Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 9 hours ago, JAHS said: We can't understand everything but there are many things He tells us in His Word that do help us understand and comprehend his work, but you choose to ignore them. For example the doctrine of baptism: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16: 16) These are His words and doctrine that have been explained to us; easy enough for us to understand and comprehend, We must be baptized to be saved. How can everyone who lived on the earth be saved by baptism if millions never had the chance to even read the Bible? And don't tell me this is something we can't comprehend because this doctrine is clearly taught many times in the Bible; easily understood. Why would you think baptism is not necessary? You read these passages with pre-conceived LDS interpretation which changes what you are reading. For example, if I told you to "jump for joy", would you jump because you already have joy or would you jump in order to get joy?
Anakin7 Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 (edited) Once again for FormerLDS, you read the scriptures through a new reformation lens, we LDS read scripture through an ancient Biblical middle eastern lens. One must be worthy of Jesus and accept him with all of one's might, mind, strength and be his Disciple [ Luke 14:25-35 ] so as to accept, access, activate, grab hold of, obtain, receive, hold on to his Grace - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf , And Former as to "Believing in/on Jesus" that is True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run/Journey -Because Believing, Belief in Jesus is the same as obeying Him - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm . You must be a True Saint/Christian, are you ? - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/christian.htm . The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7. Edited May 2, 2018 by Anakin7
MormonMason Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 23 hours ago, FormerLDS said: No. I'm suggesting that people prefer to believe the Bible was mistranslated and/or corrupted because the Bible doesn't fit their church doctrine. Yet, the Bible has been mistranslated in parts and some of the texts indeed have been corrupted. But that is because the scribes found that the texts conflicted and didn't fit with their new doctrines. I've given a few examples of corrupted texts elsewhere on this board, as have many others elsewhere on the Internet and in books on the subject. I'll post one of them (Deuteronomy 32:43 in the Dead Sea Scrolls) here again: Do you notice how many of these are marked with red? When the scribes went more monotheistic they changed up the text to get rid of other gods in heaven who are commanded to bow down to God. In other words, the scribes corrupted the text. But even the above most likely is not the original. The Hebrew text the translators of the Greek Septuagint translated into Greek saw a Hebrew text that was two lines longer than this one, and twice as long as a whole than the one in our Hebrew Bibles today. The texts have been corrupted. People need to stop living in denial now that the evidence has begun to come forth from the ground, demonstrating that. I've also looked at the manuscripts with my own eyes and have seen such corruptions within a number of them. In fact, new sigla have been added to standard critical editions because several of the texts are so corrupted that they could not determine which reading was the original. They have about equal weight and attestation, meaning that they had extreme difficulty picking which one they felt was the original, so they put one in the text and marked it with one of the new sigla, a diamond. This means that they do not know which one is right and cannot be sure the one they picked is it. By the way, anyone who can read and pick up a standard critical edition of the Greek New Testament can see that I am speaking the truth about this. And there are many more examples than those which I have given. 1
FormerLDS Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, Anakin7 said: Once again for FormerLDS, you read the scriptures through a new reformation lens, we LDS read scripture through an ancient Biblical middle eastern lens. One must be worthy of Jesus and accept him with all of one's might, mind, strength and be his Disciple [ Luke 14:25-35 ] so as to accept, access, activate, grab hold of, obtain, receive, hold on to his Grace - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/images/worthy-of-Jesus.pdf , And Former as to "Believing in/on Jesus" that is True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Walk/Run/Journey -Because Believing, Belief in Jesus is the same as obeying Him - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm . You must be a True Saint/Christian, are you ? - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/christian.htm . With all due respect to your personal views, according to the Bible, there is a difference between "belief" and "faith". Belief is a decision. Faith is what you do with that decision - the tangible result of belief. Another thing to consider, there are two types of faith. Man's faith is his works. The faith of Jesus Christ is the works Christ performed on earth - the atonement. Man's faith can die (James 2), but man is NOT saved by HIS faith, but by the "faith of Jesus Christ" which can never die (James 2:1, Gal 2:16). One can believe and be saved, yet never have faith to do something afterward because man's faith can die. Regarding being "worthy of Jesus", if I had to be worthy of Jesus Christ it would be impossible for me to be saved, just telling you that. I'm nowhere near worthy.
Anakin7 Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: With all due respect to your personal views, according to the Bible, there is a difference between "belief" and "faith". Belief is a decision. Faith is what you do with that decision - the tangible result of belief. Another thing to consider, there are two types of faith. Man's faith is his works. The faith of Jesus Christ is the works Christ performed on earth - the atonement. Man's faith can die (James 2), but man is NOT saved by HIS faith, but by the "faith of Jesus Christ" which can never die (James 2:1, Gal 2:16). One can believe and be saved, yet never have faith to do something afterward because man's faith can die. Regarding being "worthy of Jesus", if I had to be worthy of Jesus Christ it would be impossible for me to be saved, just telling you that. I'm nowhere near worthy. With all due respect to your newfound evangelical fundamentalist Baptist views [ Remember I used to be a Methodist and Fundamentalist Baptist ] belief and faith come from my understanding of the greek word "pistis, believe and faith are continious actions, not mere thoughts in the head, but a true Grace empowering motivational action as was understood by the ancient Hebrews/Israelites/Saints/Christians. My True Grace empowered Faith is not self centered but born of a True Grace Empowered Love, Belief, Faith, Covenant of Obedience to He who ransomed me. True man's self centered faith cannot save him, but the True Gift of Faith given to Him from above can. One must have a True belief to be Saved and a True faith to be Saved as well. As to worthiness, then you are not in accord with the scripture references in the link above from a evangelical of your House. The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Love In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
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